Pilots new proposal and the Me Too Clause

[Tex-Mech]

You're right that they outsourced a large amount of their heavy maintenance in the past, but in their last contract they agreed to allow the outsourcing of an additional line of work to San Salvador. I'm sure AMFA had no choice if they wanted to keep the Line rates as high as they are, but that would be little comfort to us if that happened here.

As to the earlier comment (not yours) asking whether I would rather keep the mechanics split, no I wouldn't, but allowing the outsourcing of our overhaul work like they did at SWA sure as hell isn't the answer.

Wakeup...it is about to happen here. My job is headed to China just in case you haven't been paying attention.

 

[Buck]

Well it will not be the TWU's fault and only the Teamsters can fix it.

 

[Realityck]

And the TWU prevents outsourcing by accepting the lowest wages in the industry.

In case you forgot, there were two earlier opportunities to choose the option of setting a stake in the ground and moving forward from that point. The choice was made not to do so, likely driven by the "we want everything we gave up in 2003" chorus. The resulting years without justified wage and benefit increases, compounded now with the bankruptcy filing, has not enhanced our negotiating position in any way. We even have some complaining now about the me-too provision which may turn out to benefit the AMTs doing the complaining, even though it was only intended to require management to negotiate in good faith with all the union groups, not just the Pilots. There's no question we have some tough decisions to make and the results will stay with us for a long time. Let's hope we make the right choices, and jumping off the cliff into the abyss is not one of them.


RealityCk, at what point do you suggest the balance should be?

In 1995 the Overhaul Bases were faced with the addition of SRP's in order to keep the back shop work from being outsourced. That was a very controversial issue for the Base AMTs. As it stands now, the Bases are again facing the question of expanding the use of OSMs or face the alternative of expanded outsourcing as practiced by most other major carriers. Whether that is the way to go or not should be decided by the Overhaul AMTs, since they will be the most affected by it either way.

While the SWA (AMFA) approach of outsourcing more heavy check work as a way to secure higher pay for Line AMTs may appeal to some Line AMT members and their Local Presidents, the resulting layoffs and massive bumping by large numbers of displaced Base AMTs into Line Stations would create havoc not only at the Bases, but the Line Stations as well. While one of the participants on this site suggested that may be the best choice under the circumstances, I seriously doubt he's one of the AMTs who would be affected by it. And to answer your question, I believe few AMTs would escape the fallout should that happen.

 

[Buck]

Did Southwest outsource work before AMFA was on the property?

Since Southwest is bringing some work back in house under AMFA's watch when are the industrial unionist going to claim victory for work coming in house?

Bringing work back in house and their pay is increasing, hmmm?

AA under the TWU is farming out an entire maintenance base and lowering the already lowest wages in the industry.

 

[Anomaly]

Did Southwest outsource work before AMFA was on the property?

Since Southwest is bringing some work back in house under AMFA's watch when are the industrial unionist going to claim victory for work coming in house?

Bringing work back in house and their pay is increasing, hmmm?

AA under the TWU is farming out an entire maintenance base and lowering the already lowest wages in the industry.

Look for yourself.

http://www.amfanational.org/docs/contracts/swamechs_contract_2008.pdf

I have a different version 2009-2012, but perhaps AMFA extended? They are known to do that after all.

 

[eolesen]

Did Southwest outsource work before AMFA was on the property?

AKAIK, WN has outsourced overhauls for most of its history, including the timeframe where its mechanics weren't unionized.

 

[Realityck]

AA under the TWU is farming out an entire maintenance base and lowering the already lowest wages in the industry

In case you forgot, there were two earlier opportunities to choose the option of setting a stake in the ground and moving forward from that point. The choice was made not to do so, likely driven by the "we want everything we gave up in 2003" chorus. The resulting years without justified wage and benefit increases, compounded now with the bankruptcy filing, has not enhanced our negotiating position by a hell of a lot. I'm sure the vote-no crowd has a well-planned strategy in mind. I certainly hope though its not the "hold your breath until you turn blue" tactic. That never worked when we were kids either.

BTW - here is the ratio of minimum mechanic headcount from the SWA agreement. While they're not in Bankruptcy like we are, do you think that might have just a little to do with their pay rates since American's staffing ratio is much higher?

"The Company agrees to maintain no less than an authorized headcount of 2.75, in the mechanic (aircraft, facilities, ground support, lead and inspector) work group per aircraft ratio, provided however, such ratio shall not include any aircraft that are operated on behalf of the Company by another air carrier in conjunction with any Code-Share or Marketing Agreement"

Maybe our proposal should be to match the SWA minimum headcount ratio and demand the same rate of SWA pay in return? Of course that would mean a lot of AMTs would be out of a job but then everything has a price right?

 

[Buck]

AA under the TWU is farming out an entire maintenance base and lowering the already lowest wages in the industry

In case you forgot, there were two earlier opportunities to choose the option of setting a stake in the ground and moving forward from that point. The choice was made not to do so, likely driven by the "we want everything we gave up in 2003" chorus. The resulting years without justified wage and benefit increases, compounded now with the bankruptcy filing, has not enhanced our negotiating position by a hell of a lot. I'm sure the vote-no crowd has a well-planned strategy in mind. I certainly hope though its not the "hold your breath until you turn blue" tactic. That never worked when we were kids either.

BTW - here is the ratio of minimum mechanic headcount from the SWA agreement. While they're not in Bankruptcy like we are, do you think that might have just a little to do with their pay rates since American's staffing ratio is much higher?

"The Company agrees to maintain no less than an authorized headcount of 2.75, in the mechanic (aircraft, facilities, ground support, lead and inspector) work group per aircraft ratio, provided however, such ratio shall not include any aircraft that are operated on behalf of the Company by another air carrier in conjunction with any Code-Share or Marketing Agreement"

Maybe our proposal should be to match the SWA minimum headcount ratio and demand the same rate of SWA pay in return? Of course that would mean a lot of AMTs would be out of a job but then everything has a price right?

Does your post mean that we are paid at the same ratio?

What is the ratio for mechanics per aircraft at AA?

Why are we last in pay and benefits?

And have been since 1983 .

 

[Buck]

AKAIK, WN has outsourced overhauls for most of its history, including the timeframe where its mechanics weren't unionized.

So prior to AMFA there was at least some outsourcing even under another union?

 

[JABORD]

I'm not sure if this point has been discussed yet but I believe the TWBoo has really screwed us on the "Me Too" I understand the me too was always a hot button issue expected by many of us with past CBA,s, but had the Union not botched the marketing of it, most of which wasn't fully understood until after the vote, all seven might just have been 'yes, votes. Then it would have been the horsepower of the APA that would give us the gains and most would probably have looked more favorably on the d****ss Union. Unfortunately now we can suspect that the TWBoo has sent the 'no voters' who chose to fight, into this frey with one arm tied behind our backs. I suspect the path for us to go to abrogation has been made easier for the company since the pos union will not stand by us and has tethered the 'yes' sheep to our ankles. AMFA!

 

[JABORD]

In case you forgot, there were two earlier opportunities to choose the option of setting a stake in the ground and moving forward from that point. The choice was made not to do so, likely driven by the "we want everything we gave up in 2003" chorus. The resulting years without justified wage and benefit increases, compounded now with the bankruptcy filing, has not enhanced our negotiating position by a hell of a lot. I'm sure the vote-no crowd has a well-planned strategy in mind. I certainly hope though its not the "hold your breath until you turn blue" tactic. That never worked when we were kids either.

Well that's the problem with you 'yes' sheep. You believed more concessions was moving forward. "We want everything"? not quite. More like "I choose to fight for a fair standard of living. OT should not be required to pay my bills, it should be a choice". "Hold your breath"? not quite either. We didn,t believe the "vote yes or the sky will fall" rhetoric and cross our fingers that all will work out. Your right, we're not kids. So when do you grow a set. The sheep haven't learned a basic lesson of life, you have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything. Go AMFA!

 

[Realityck]

Go AMFA!


NWA – AMFA Strategy in Action

Most unions considered the strike ill conceived from the very beginning. AMFA had no strike fund and, reflecting its separatist philosophy of mechanics acting alone, went on strike while the Pilots, Flight Attendants and Machinists' Union were still negotiating under pressures of bankruptcy court proceedings. AMFA bolted ahead of all the other unions, characteristic of their often-stated mantra that "strength in numbers doesn't necessarily mean strength. " This was the wisdom offered by AMFA Assistant National Director Steve MacFarlane on the eve of the August 2005 strike. He couldn't have been more wrong.

Underestimating solidarity with other unions on the property was only one of AMFA's strategic mistakes. Extremely damaging to unity with other unions was AMFA's negotiating proposal that NWA take more concessions from IAM members and less from AMFA members.

On concession bargaining for example, AMFA members were never given an opportunity to vote on the 'Final and Best Offer' by NWA before the strike was called in August 2005 and 'rank and file observers' were barred from the recent negotiations with NWA on the tentative agreement.

 

[Buck]

Concession Bargaining?

 

[Anomaly]

Well that's the problem with you 'yes' sheep. You believed more concessions was moving forward. "We want everything"? not quite. More like "I choose to fight for a fair standard of living. OT should not be required to pay my bills, it should be a choice". "Hold your breath"? not quite either. We didn,t believe the "vote yes or the sky will fall" rhetoric and cross our fingers that all will work out. Your right, we're not kids. So when do you grow a set. The sheep haven't learned a basic lesson of life, you have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything. Go AMFA!

Go AMFA alright ! Go right off that cliff....
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____:_____________ Boom.

No doubt. A jump to AMFA will help you find the bottom.

 

[Anomaly]

Concession Bargaining?

http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/concession-bargaining/