Man the lifeboats...............

[Jacobin777]

frequentflyerca,

"Don't you get it? Do think Arpey & Co. are sitting around trying to think of ways to destroy the airline?"

After a 5 year concessionary contract based upon "shAAred sAAcrifice" which is in reality the "great lie".

After more than 3 years of the company dragging their feet in offering concessionary t/a after concessionary t/a.

After members of management referring to labor as "bricks".

After management offering $100,000.00 candy bars along with AIP checks.

The answer is YES to your question!

Why is it in reality "great lie"?

AFAIK, there has been progress between the APA and Management - many items have been resolved.

Maybe AA should have filed for Chapter 11 back in 2003 and screwed everyone else much earlier? After all, every other legacy carriers such as DL, UA, NW and US did...with CO doing it twice.

They have tried to make the best of a bad situation.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Why is it in reality "great lie"?

AFAIK, there has been progress between the APA and Management - many items have been resolved.

Maybe AA should have filed for Chapter 11 back in 2003 and screwed everyone else much earlier? After all, every other legacy carriers such as DL, UA, NW and US did...with CO doing it twice.

They have tried to make the best of a bad situation.

Jacob,

It is the "great lie" because "shAAred sAAcrifice" implied that EVERYONE would be part of the sacrifice in preventing us from going into BK. It was NEVER said that "Okay guy and girls. EVERYONE will take a 28 1/2% cut in pay and benefits EXCEPT those of us at the top. While you all take life changing concessions, lose your homes, ruin your marriages, spend more time away from home working a second job/overtime we will continue to take millions of dollars in bonuses."

THAT'S WHY IT IS A "GREAT LIE". If you believe otherwise perhaps you can offer to give back even more because you certainly aren't going to fight for what you deserve.

 

[Jacobin777]

Jacob,

It is the "great lie" because "shAAred sAAcrifice" implied that EVERYONE would be part of the sacrifice in preventing us from going into BK. It was NEVER said that "Okay guy and girls. EVERYONE will take a 28 1/2% cut in pay and benefits EXCEPT those of us at the top. While you all take life changing concessions, lose your homes, ruin your marriages, spend more time away from home working a second job/overtime we will continue to take millions of dollars in bonuses."

THAT'S WHY IT IS A "GREAT LIE". If you believe otherwise perhaps you can offer to give back even more because you certainly aren't going to fight for what you deserve.

Ken,

A few items:

It was really previous Chairman Carty and a few others in management who kept his pensions while telling everyone to "make sacrifices". Once it was found out his pension was safe, he was forced to resign. Also, this is really considered "standard industry practice" so it wasn't anything new.

The current management bonuses from a few years ago were approved by the union(s)....can't blame management on that. Unions had the right to take the deal (for stock options) as well.

Also, perhaps one should realize "market forces" vary and change...sometimes quite violently. Its quite apparent that current employee costs (especially pilots) are not in-line with current market rates....and that is including the 28% "haircut".

Eventually, there will be too few pilots, ramp workers, F/A's, etc. and this will once again lead to more "pricing power" for the aforementioned bunch.

I don't want to offend people here, but it is quite "cut and dry". AA has one of the highest (if not highest) costs in the industry.

Has management made mistakes? Sure. I don't have the kindest of words for management either but denying AA's high cost structure is like believing the world is flat...

 

[strikeforce]

Ken,

A few items:

It was really previous Chairman Carty and a few others in management who kept his pensions while telling everyone to "make sacrifices". Once it was found out his pension was safe, he was forced to resign. Also, this is really considered "standard industry practice" so it wasn't anything new.

The current management bonuses from a few years ago were approved by the union(s)....can't blame management on that. Unions had the right to take the deal (for stock options) as well.

Also, perhaps one should realize "market forces" vary and change...sometimes quite violently. Its quite apparent that current employee costs (especially pilots) are not in-line with current market rates....and that is including the 28% "haircut".

Eventually, there will be too few pilots, ramp workers, F/A's, etc. and this will once again lead to more "pricing power" for the aforementioned bunch.

I don't want to offend people here, but it is quite "cut and dry". AA has one of the highest (if not highest) costs in the industry.

Has management made mistakes? Sure. I don't have the kindest of words for management either but denying AA's high cost structure is like believing the world is flat...

absolute blunderous mistake by management in 2003 where all workers to it in the shorts instead of using layoffs to offset higher costs. management obviously didn't believe that lower pay and higher expenses for workers equals discontent and low morale which equates to terrible operating conditions.....i.e. dependability problems, late heavy checks and a fleet that hangs on by a thread. Management created this monster, along with the help of the union leadership. It's too late to turn this ship around.....no matter what they throw at us.

 

[Buck]

absolute blunderous mistake by management in 2003 where all workers to it in the shorts instead of using layoffs to offset higher costs. management obviously didn't believe that lower pay and higher expenses for workers equals discontent and low morale which equates to terrible operating conditions.....i.e. dependability problems, late heavy checks and a fleet that hangs on by a thread. Management created this monster, along with the help of the union leadership. It's too late to turn this ship around.....no matter what they throw at us.

Maybe we should go for a new B-Scale at every contract negotiation renewal?

 

[Jacobin777]

absolute blunderous mistake by management in 2003 where all workers to it in the shorts instead of using layoffs to offset higher costs. management obviously didn't believe that lower pay and higher expenses for workers equals discontent and low morale which equates to terrible operating conditions.....i.e. dependability problems, late heavy checks and a fleet that hangs on by a thread. Management created this monster, along with the help of the union leadership. It's too late to turn this ship around.....no matter what they throw at us.

Well, "never say never". There is always hope for change. I think once the management and the pilot's union gets things settled, other items will settle quickly (hopefully). I feel bad for those who have gotten "screwed over" but at the end of the day, for a company to survive (and thrive), it needs to be competitive and be able to pay its bills on time.

AA's "restructuring" was one of the largest non-bk restructuring of its time.

Hindsight is "20-20" and looking back now, AA probably would have been better going the Chapter 11 route. I personally detest it as it enriches the corporate lawyers to name a few...

 

[Hopeful]

Hindsight is "20-20" and looking back now, AA probably would have been better going the Chapter 11 route. I personally detest it as it enriches the corporate lawyers to name a few...

Not sure what you detest about it..But chapter 11 is being used more to destroy workers lives and break unions, than it is to screw its creditors and stock holders. The primary reason is union busting. This is the case of the airline industry.

 

[Jacobin777]

Not sure what you detest about it..But chapter 11 is being used more to destroy workers lives and break unions, than it is to screw its creditors and stock holders. The primary reason is union busting. This is the case of the airline industry.

Stock holders lose practically their entire investment in AMR (shareholders are wiped out)...it could be a substantial amount of money. Creditors get pennies to the dollar.

I detest the fact lawyers make money (and a lot of it) out of a bad situation.

I don't see how its "union busting". UA, US, etc. still have their unions - even post-bk.

 

[AANOTOK]

Here is one analyst's take on the stock dropping.

"We see no end in sight to this cycle of capital destruction, as management's strategy appears focused on building a robust network with younger planes - all too reminiscent of classic airline behavior."

Oh, and my sons in law school to become a lawyer. I'll warn him about being detested!

 

[Frank Szabo]

Stock holders lose practically their entire investment in AMR (shareholders are wiped out)...it could be a substantial amount of money. Creditors get pennies to the dollar.

I detest the fact lawyers make money (and a lot of it) out of a bad situation.

I don't see how its "union busting". UA, US, etc. still have their unions - even post-bk.

"Union busting" needn't take the stereotypical character of said union being decertified if the company in question can buy it.

 

[737823]

"Union busting" needn't take the stereotypical character of said union being decertified if the company in question can buy it.

So using your understanding AA engaged in union busting through the RPA? Again, none of the existing unions at DL, NW, UA, or US were decertified through bankruptcy. Concessions were imposed but it wasn't union busting.

Josh

 

[Hopeful]

Stock holders lose practically their entire investment in AMR (shareholders are wiped out)...it could be a substantial amount of money. Creditors get pennies to the dollar.

I detest the fact lawyers make money (and a lot of it) out of a bad situation.

I don't see how its "union busting". UA, US, etc. still have their unions - even post-bk.

Investing in stock is a risk,,,,,we all know that.....

You may not see it as union busting, but many an airline employee feels otherwise. In bankruptcy, unions have had nearly every gain made over 40 years wiped out with the stroke of a pen. The law prohibits decertifying a union in chapter 11. that would require a different venue.

The company whines and cries and begs a judge to abbrogate all labor agreements, but also ask that same bankruptcy judge to leave be the executive compensations, because, after all,,,,,executives have CONTRACTS with the company and can't be touched..but hey go ahead and tear up labor contracts...
Yea, it's not union busting...

BTW, busting a union does not necessarily mean DECERTIFICATION....

Just look to Wisconsin with anti union Gov. Walker.......

 

[737823]

Investing in stock is a risk,,,,,we all know that.....

You may not see it as union busting, but many an airline employee feels otherwise. In bankruptcy, unions have had nearly every gain made over 40 years wiped out with the stroke of a pen. The law prohibits decertifying a union in chapter 11. that would require a different venue.

The company whines and cries and begs a judge to abbrogate all labor agreements, but also ask that same bankruptcy judge to leave be the executive compensations, because, after all,,,,,executives have CONTRACTS with the company and can't be touched..but hey go ahead and tear up labor contracts...
Yea, it's not union busting...

BTW, busting a union does not necessarily mean DECERTIFICATION....

Just look to Wisconsin with anti union Gov. Walker.......

Wow. Just so you know my pay, benefits, or job security could be modified or eliminated at anytime for a good reason, bad reason, or no reason at all. I'd have no recourse if that was the case so if anything union airline employees enjoy greater protection than the public at large.

Are you in the camp that DL employed union busting techniques to "thwart" the AFA and IAM votes? If and when a revote occurs, they'll like receive fewer votes like the simulator technicians. DL has done well by all their employees and enjoys a unique culture. In my experience the DL crews are more personable than their NW counterparts and identify better with the company values. Since AFA's November 2010 decertification, the workers have been enjoying higher wages and AFA is the one delaying profit sharing payments for the PM-NW crews who also have lower wages.

If the unions were really out to advocate for the workers, IAM wouldn't be filing interference charges over the UA election since AFA clearly won. And honestly, on my recent trips on CO its pretty clear UCH management was really pushing the IAM agenda all along.

Josh

 

[Hopeful]

Wow. Just so you know my pay, benefits, or job security could be modified or eliminated at anytime for a good reason, bad reason, or no reason at all. I'd have no recourse if that was the case so if anything union airline employees enjoy greater protection than the public at large.

A good reason to join a union...

Are you in the camp that DL employed union busting techniques to "thwart" the AFA and IAM votes? If and when a revote occurs, they'll like receive fewer votes like the simulator technicians. DL has done well by all their employees and enjoys a unique culture. In my experience the DL crews are more personable than their NW counterparts and identify better with the company values. Since AFA's November 2010 decertification, the workers have been enjoying higher wages and AFA is the one delaying profit sharing payments for the PM-NW crews who also have lower wages.

The history of Delta/employee relations has its roots in keeping employees happy so they would not need to join a union in the first place. This philosophy goes back to 60's where airline unions dominated the industry.
I see nothing at AA that leads me to believe management would treat us any better. Higher wages? Not always the case....No pensions are the case as are in paying more of the lion's share for medical coverage.

If the unions were really out to advocate for the workers, IAM wouldn't be filing interference charges over the UA election since AFA clearly won. And honestly, on my recent trips on CO its pretty clear UCH management was really pushing the IAM agenda all along.

Josh

Say what you wan't about unions....But there is equality and pay for memebers regardless of race, religion, and sex...

 

[Jacobin777]

The history of Delta/employee relations has its roots in keeping employees happy so they would not need to join a union in the first place. This philosophy goes back to 60's where airline unions dominated the industry.
I see nothing at AA that leads me to believe management would treat us any better. Higher wages? Not always the case....No pensions are the case as are in paying more of the lion's share for medical coverage.



Say what you wan't about unions....But there is equality and pay for memebers regardless of race, religion, and sex...

Say what you want about unions mate, but there is a reason why unions are going the way of black and white t.v.'s.