1995, how well did that work out?
M&R how we can get a consensual agreement
- Thread starter paul1
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1995, how well did that work out?
AANOTOK
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My point Bob, my point...and it was and still is the TWU!
AA doesnt "need" to cut its costs for mechanics, they want to so they can make a 17% profit. We are already at the bottom of the industry, USAIR had DIP financing to keep it going, AA had over $4 billion in cash when they filed and now has over $5 billion.
This is not the USAIR BK.
If AA wants to compete in this business they need to pay a competitive wage.
So they can get a business plan approved and exit BK? How many companies have exited BK without them? Thats one incentive.
How about so they can concentrate on their customers instead of being at war with their workers which is what will happen if they impose terms? Thats another.
We are only as powerless as we decide to be. If they threaten to impose terms then maybe everyone could be become ill at the thought of entering such a hostile enviornment? It happens.
eolesen
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Therein lies the crux of the debate. It's not clear cut if you're going into Section 6 on abrogation or not. I don't recall anyone ever imposing a term sheet that included an amenable date as one of the terms.
I'm of the opinion that if imposing the term sheet is ultimately approved by the court, that clause becomes binding, and you're stuck until 2018.
That's one way of looking at it.
Another way of looking at it is that the train is going to leave the station either with or without you.
iluvaa
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Eric the train cant go anywhere if it's broke and no ones there to drive it. Right
So while we are in BK AA picked up another BILLION in CASH. WOW and the contracts are still in order. Go figure? Are we that stupid or is the BK system that blind?
chris perry
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The only way to get a deal is remove current management period,repeat no one trusts a word they say.....
How to make a deal?
1) Shorter term contract. We don't trust you that it will be for six years. We are in year 9 of a 5 year deal now.
2) Put your money where your mouth is. Get rid of the fat (consultant groups) and hold managers accountable for their actions.
3) Practice what you preach and treat your employees with dignity and respect. Instead of thinking of new and interesting ways to make your employees miserable, how about spending some time on coming up with a plan to make money without taking it out of my pocket. You can't make money if you don't fly, and if Eagle gets all the gates, we can't make money.
4) As a sign of good faith sent Horton packing without a separation package. A good old fashioned firing would be great.
5) If we are already the lowest paid in the industry there is nowhere else for us to go. Don't expect us to agree to go lower.
6) There is no trust. AA has lied in the past and they are lying now. Put language in that protects our seniority (bumping rights for EVERYONE even crewchiefs and inspectors)
7) Since none of the above will happen, there is no way to make a deal. You can't trust a liar and there is no honor amoung thieves. We paid for TWA and now they want us to pay for their aircraft orders.
How will this all turn out? I wish I could tell you that it will turn out great, but I can't. I know the TWU will do their best to destroy our careers in favor of empty promises from management that jobs will be saved. The battle has just begun. Stay strong and stay together.
1) Shorter term contract. We don't trust you that it will be for six years. We are in year 9 of a 5 year deal now.
2) Put your money where your mouth is. Get rid of the fat (consultant groups) and hold managers accountable for their actions.
3) Practice what you preach and treat your employees with dignity and respect. Instead of thinking of new and interesting ways to make your employees miserable, how about spending some time on coming up with a plan to make money without taking it out of my pocket. You can't make money if you don't fly, and if Eagle gets all the gates, we can't make money.
4) As a sign of good faith sent Horton packing without a separation package. A good old fashioned firing would be great.
5) If we are already the lowest paid in the industry there is nowhere else for us to go. Don't expect us to agree to go lower.
6) There is no trust. AA has lied in the past and they are lying now. Put language in that protects our seniority (bumping rights for EVERYONE even crewchiefs and inspectors)
7) Since none of the above will happen, there is no way to make a deal. You can't trust a liar and there is no honor amoung thieves. We paid for TWA and now they want us to pay for their aircraft orders.
How will this all turn out? I wish I could tell you that it will turn out great, but I can't. I know the TWU will do their best to destroy our careers in favor of empty promises from management that jobs will be saved. The battle has just begun. Stay strong and stay together.
2ndGENAMT
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In my shop when the results came out you could see all the Yes voters as they were downtrodden and the no voters as they were congratulating each other..
Then this came on Jetnet..
In addition, American will be prepared to continue to negotiate in good faith with the TWU with the goal of reaching consensual agreements."
Afterward the yes crowd was more upbeat as they realized that the process is on going and not a slam dunk for Tom..I hope they have seen the deceit of AA/TWU and if the next offer is not acceptable will be 80% NO..
Now, we need to get the outsource scope well defined as the company will get that aspect of the terms imposed as our competition has..The survival of TULE as an AA base is contingent on keeping the system protections in place, This is paramount in this fight and if it is lost IMO Tulsa will be divested or sold to an MRO within a matter of a few years.. Raises are out of the question unless they throw something out just to kill our Scope..
Then this came on Jetnet..
In addition, American will be prepared to continue to negotiate in good faith with the TWU with the goal of reaching consensual agreements."
Afterward the yes crowd was more upbeat as they realized that the process is on going and not a slam dunk for Tom..I hope they have seen the deceit of AA/TWU and if the next offer is not acceptable will be 80% NO..
Now, we need to get the outsource scope well defined as the company will get that aspect of the terms imposed as our competition has..The survival of TULE as an AA base is contingent on keeping the system protections in place, This is paramount in this fight and if it is lost IMO Tulsa will be divested or sold to an MRO within a matter of a few years.. Raises are out of the question unless they throw something out just to kill our Scope..
We`ve provided ourselves the ability to continue the fight that AMR started and Little Jimmy needs to be reminded that this "hell no" is a mandate to raise the bar back up to the level of our flight brothers and sisters for the mechanics. His breaking rank to fullfill his "promise" was a piss poor miscalculation and we need to get back in lockstep with the other Unions. I`d rather die fighting on my feet than live on my knees.
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No it is the TWU that split the workforce. By show no leadership in either direction the union has done the company,'s job.
xUT
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NWA was a special case.
NWA opened up a scab school and recruited people to train on their aircraft at pay equal to or more than AMFA M&R.
AMFA made a faux pa when they went on strike instead of waiting for a lock out as NWA was paying for scabs and AMFA M&R. NWA intent was to break AMFA at "any" cost.I still wonder of there wasn't some backhanded backing from Delta and the rest of the industry to make this point. The FAA turned a blind eye to infractions that would have shut any one else down.
IMHO, AA does not have a scab school in the works and replacements will not be easy.
The 'only' tool in the union tool box is to withhold labor.
By your consistent postings, everyone should just give up and agree to whatever the company wants.
FYI, you haven't been so correct lately... LOL
Maybe you're 'confused'... ;-)
If unions bend to 'unreasonable' company demands, then why have a union?
B) xUT
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If someone wants an agreement that would be ratified then certain principles have to apply.
First, no more "at their discretion" or non-existing language that some TWU Stooge claims in a video that management has "confirmed" or that it has "been done in the past". Put the friggin language in the agreement and lock down the intent and stop with the we can change it if you vote yes bullcrap. This Last best offer was being changed as the rebellion was launched against it.
Second, if AA wants our pensions, our retirement medical, our job security, then we must be paid at the top of the industry.
This last best offer was giving away everything that was not taken in 2003. While leaving us the bottom of the industry in all-in pay and benefits. Forget that crap.
Third, If FEAR is required to obtain yes votes then it should never pass. If there is not a viable business plan to really save our futures then it will fail again.
Fourth, this is about our future being able to remain in the overhaul business. Allowing the union to dictate headcount in exchange for concessions is not going to fly anymore. The only way to save jobs in Tulsa is to implement boundries that place the work force at the highest in production, safety standards, and attendance policy. Allowing the inmates to run the place without any accountability is not going to save jobs. The culture must change. The Management needs be evaluated. We have Managers that are only even at the Tulsa Base because Carmine Romano is the GodFather is his children. We cannot allow Management to remain a good ol'e boys club that cannot or will not manage their areas. There are so many stories of relatives and friends filling improtant postitions at the Tulsa Base with employees that are incapable of doing their jobs. These folks do not want to be held accountable or evaluated fairly, so they hold nobody else accountable and evaluation is a joke. This is the most unaccoubtable workforce I have ever seen, and if not changed, I would not blame AA for getting out of this business. No viable business allows a Union Membership to dicate terms of production, safety, and attendance. No viable business allows positions to be filled with warm bodies via the buddy system instead of placing the best they can find into those jobs. No viable business has workers and their union running the place without accountability standards.
Basically if AA wants ANY concession, while in Bankruptcy, their must be a business plan attached to every concession and in the contract that assures us that we are going to get in exchange for the concession that which the concession is intended to obtain. We need the ability and the right to file a grievance or a legal claim if AA fails to keep the promises associated with the concession. We keep funding and never get in return the assured viable management plan that will secure our futures. We are basically pissing in the wind. We give, and it gets pissed away. I want to see a business plan that assures my future now that AA is in BK Court. Lack of sound management, and lack of accountability in both management and union employees is NOT going to secure anyone a future, it is going to lead to complete collapse.
This fight is not about the past for me, it is about the future. I don't mind telling you that I have grave concerns about the Tulsa Maintenance Base and if we even have one more chance to turn this around, if we are lucky enough to have another chance then is surely the last chance. The Union leadership needs to stop worrying more about getting re-elected and focus on leading this base into a true culture change for the future. Both Union and Management is at fault here, and if we do not stop blaming each other instead of fixing the issues that are making us fail, then we will untlimately all be out of this business and still blaming each other all the way to the grave.
Giving up job security and assurances of your job, places you in the position of sink or swim. Even if we wanted to swim then we have no management to get us to the shore, and our union refuses to allow the boat to be used because it is too full a cash from union dues. I will be damed if I will vote to give away my job security clause while nothing is put in place to assure I have a chance at beating the competition. Giving up Job Security along with a flawed management and business plan is suicide and ignorant. Just the idea reaks of a mangement group that admits they cannot succeed and wants the right to end your career. I have not put in 28 years to be shafted by a gool old boy club of incompent management that could not put together and exectue a vialble business if their life depended on it and instead they and all their inadequacies are being hid away in a company that has so much cash flow they cannot be seen or identified.
First, no more "at their discretion" or non-existing language that some TWU Stooge claims in a video that management has "confirmed" or that it has "been done in the past". Put the friggin language in the agreement and lock down the intent and stop with the we can change it if you vote yes bullcrap. This Last best offer was being changed as the rebellion was launched against it.
Second, if AA wants our pensions, our retirement medical, our job security, then we must be paid at the top of the industry.
This last best offer was giving away everything that was not taken in 2003. While leaving us the bottom of the industry in all-in pay and benefits. Forget that crap.
Third, If FEAR is required to obtain yes votes then it should never pass. If there is not a viable business plan to really save our futures then it will fail again.
Fourth, this is about our future being able to remain in the overhaul business. Allowing the union to dictate headcount in exchange for concessions is not going to fly anymore. The only way to save jobs in Tulsa is to implement boundries that place the work force at the highest in production, safety standards, and attendance policy. Allowing the inmates to run the place without any accountability is not going to save jobs. The culture must change. The Management needs be evaluated. We have Managers that are only even at the Tulsa Base because Carmine Romano is the GodFather is his children. We cannot allow Management to remain a good ol'e boys club that cannot or will not manage their areas. There are so many stories of relatives and friends filling improtant postitions at the Tulsa Base with employees that are incapable of doing their jobs. These folks do not want to be held accountable or evaluated fairly, so they hold nobody else accountable and evaluation is a joke. This is the most unaccoubtable workforce I have ever seen, and if not changed, I would not blame AA for getting out of this business. No viable business allows a Union Membership to dicate terms of production, safety, and attendance. No viable business allows positions to be filled with warm bodies via the buddy system instead of placing the best they can find into those jobs. No viable business has workers and their union running the place without accountability standards.
Basically if AA wants ANY concession, while in Bankruptcy, their must be a business plan attached to every concession and in the contract that assures us that we are going to get in exchange for the concession that which the concession is intended to obtain. We need the ability and the right to file a grievance or a legal claim if AA fails to keep the promises associated with the concession. We keep funding and never get in return the assured viable management plan that will secure our futures. We are basically pissing in the wind. We give, and it gets pissed away. I want to see a business plan that assures my future now that AA is in BK Court. Lack of sound management, and lack of accountability in both management and union employees is NOT going to secure anyone a future, it is going to lead to complete collapse.
This fight is not about the past for me, it is about the future. I don't mind telling you that I have grave concerns about the Tulsa Maintenance Base and if we even have one more chance to turn this around, if we are lucky enough to have another chance then is surely the last chance. The Union leadership needs to stop worrying more about getting re-elected and focus on leading this base into a true culture change for the future. Both Union and Management is at fault here, and if we do not stop blaming each other instead of fixing the issues that are making us fail, then we will untlimately all be out of this business and still blaming each other all the way to the grave.
Giving up job security and assurances of your job, places you in the position of sink or swim. Even if we wanted to swim then we have no management to get us to the shore, and our union refuses to allow the boat to be used because it is too full a cash from union dues. I will be damed if I will vote to give away my job security clause while nothing is put in place to assure I have a chance at beating the competition. Giving up Job Security along with a flawed management and business plan is suicide and ignorant. Just the idea reaks of a mangement group that admits they cannot succeed and wants the right to end your career. I have not put in 28 years to be shafted by a gool old boy club of incompent management that could not put together and exectue a vialble business if their life depended on it and instead they and all their inadequacies are being hid away in a company that has so much cash flow they cannot be seen or identified.
