UPS Agreement

[Bob Owens]

Strike...don't get me wrong here. I'm not implying at all the union is responsible for anything(esp good representation), btw, nor do I work for AA(trying to get back in though). If AA is being mismanaged(and by many accounts that has occured), then some of the blame lays squarely on the shoulder of executive management.
What I AM saying is...ALL of the LCC(mainly WN) are pretty much handing the legacy carriers there asses in the industry now. If not for the International routes, they'd really have a hell of a time making any money.
Either UP or FedEx(pick one)makes more money in one widebody load than an airline makes all day(net). And WN has a business model so streamlined, it's almost untouchable now. It's called CASM(costs per available seat mile)and this is where the legacys suck vs LCC. The business model of the legacys is inferior to the LCC.
The fleet at FX is rather old(as Bob pointed out), & it kind of surprised me when I was there. Some of there 727s and DC10 were trash. But FX feels like that's what line maint is for.
And all of UP DC8s had CFM 56s on them, and according to a friend there, UP loved them, freighthauling machines. Guess they were too thirsty and hangar queens...??

I have no dog in this race(yet), and I'm a very pro-union guy. But when a company is not doing well financially(regardless of who's guilty), I wouldn't count on an industry leading contract. I know you guys are sick and tired of giving back to the company. I would be too. But at this juncture, I'm thinking a 3 yr deal(max!) with a 42/hr(or so) top out plus 2001 perks returned, and I'd feel pretty good about that if I was with you guys now. No?

I'd be more worried about who's going to cross the line when/if you guys strike, if you want to know the truth...esp in TULE.

CASMS is only one side, you need to look at RASMs as well.

I disagree as far as how much the cargo outfits make flying their cargo. Both are small package delivery companys, point to point, not just port to port. If Cargo was so profitable then why do the airlines shy away from it? AA used to have freighters years ago, they dumped them.
UPS Revenue
2008 Revenue: $51.5 billion
FedEx Revenue
2008 Revenues: $37.9 billion

UPS Employees=408,000
Fed Ex employees=280,000

UPS Revenue per employee = $126,225
Fed Ex Revenue per employee = $135,357
AA Revenue per Employee =$255,000
I'm too lazy to do SWA but theirs is even higher.

AA brought in $22 billion last year, over $255,000 per employee. They bought tons of new planes, paid off millions in debt, refurbished or expanded facilities all over the place, who says that they arent performing well? Profits?? Who cares about profits, when you are dependant on a large workforce with specialized skills that are in short supply the last thing you want to do is show profits, if you do then all your mechanics will be demanding $50/hr and there wont be anything you can do about it other than pay it.

 

[eolesen]

Are you saying that we generate more cycles on average per aircraft per year than SWA? Guess you missed that.

No, didn't miss it. WN generates more cycles. It's usually dark after 10pm in Ohio. Shoveling snow sucks. Why waste time and state the obvious?

And I suppose you can smel those lavs while you are sitting at your computer looking for the lowest price? Isnt that what you've been saying for years, that AA has no pricing power, people just look for the lowest price on the Internet?

When three airlines have the same price, what do you think drives their decision, Bob? Their last experience with those airlines.

I purposely avoid Delta after my last two flights with them.

For the same price, I have no qualms about flying AA, Southwest, Continental or United. If Delta somehow comes up 10% or 20% cheaper and it's coming out of my travel budget or pocket, I may not like it, but I'll fly Delta. That's why I flew them last week -- they wanted $189 round trip to ATL and AA wanted $390 to fly the same route, and on a RJ to boot...

Workers supply labor, therefore we are suppliers.

Suppliers don't get seniority, travel privileges, pensions or health benefits. They also don't get union representation. Only employees get that.

 

[787nightmare]

Do you seriously think that AA would offer that without taking it back in some other form? The last T/A took more from us then gave! AA is quite content with the plodding progression of the negotiations, as they have no intentions of full retro or any other than (laugh) a zero cost contract. Serious negotiations from AA will not rear it's beautiful head until (if ever) we are released to a 30 day cooling off period.

I agree completely...
Where did I indicate otherwise??

You guys absolutely will have to show AA you're prepared to strike today(TWU won't like it-or allow)to get anything form them.

 

[787nightmare]

"AA brought in $22 billion last year, over $255,000 per employee. They bought tons of new planes, paid off millions in debt, refurbished or expanded facilities all over the place, who says that they arent performing well? Profits?? Who cares about profits, when you are dependant on a large workforce with specialized skills that are in short supply the last thing you want to do is show profits, if you do then all your mechanics will be demanding $50/hr and there wont be anything you can do about it other than pay it."

Bob, I don't disagree that AA may be making some unwise moves. I don't know or keep up with AAs decisions, marketing moves, capital expenditures etc.
I do know for a fact that there's BIG money in frieght and UPS and FedEx are the kings-as we all know. They will aggressively defend there industry and turf from all comers.There's only so much room in the belly of pax aircraft, but they still run freight to boost revenue each flight. My guess is they(the airlines-and NWA used to have a money maker flying 747s over to NRT, Tokyo, but they sold the biz arm), they saw that UP, FX had the market cornered and concentrated on there core biz of flying pax.

Also, UPS and FedEx have far more employees than AA, thus less per emp as you point out. Why AA shows to make more per emp.
I KNOW the freight business is very lucrative if you do it right. And UP and FX have it down to a science.

WN on the other hand has an outstanding business model and people actually want to fly them.
Just an observers opinion of course. What do I know...

 

[strikeforce]

"AA brought in $22 billion last year, over $255,000 per employee. They bought tons of new planes, paid off millions in debt, refurbished or expanded facilities all over the place, who says that they arent performing well? Profits?? Who cares about profits, when you are dependant on a large workforce with specialized skills that are in short supply the last thing you want to do is show profits, if you do then all your mechanics will be demanding $50/hr and there wont be anything you can do about it other than pay it."

Bob, I don't disagree that AA may be making some unwise moves. I don't know or keep up with AAs decisions, marketing moves, capital expenditures etc.
I do know for a fact that there's BIG money in frieght and UPS and FedEx are the kings-as we all know. They will aggressively defend there industry and turf from all comers.There's only so much room in the belly of pax aircraft, but they still run freight to boost revenue each flight. My guess is they(the airlines-and NWA used to have a money maker flying 747s over to NRT, Tokyo, but they sold the biz arm), they saw that UP, FX had the market cornered and concentrated on there core biz of flying pax.

Also, UPS and FedEx have far more employees than AA, thus less per emp as you point out. Why AA shows to make more per emp.
I KNOW the freight business is very lucrative if you do it right. And UP and FX have it down to a science.

WN on the other hand has an outstanding business model and people actually want to fly them.
Just an observers opinion of course. What do I know...

Look, I think we can all agree that AA will not pay $50/hr, along with all the other perks at UPS, & WN because AA knows we're weak. Besides, I don't believe the TWU has the nads of proposing as such. Can someone please answer one thing regarding our negotiations......does anyone really know our table positions as far as wages, benefits & work rules. I hear a lot of rhetoric from our TWU leadership regarding other airline T/A's, but I don't see proposals to AA that equal these T/A's. Why not? Anybody?

 

[Tex-Mech]

UPS T/A Highlight Sheet

 

[787nightmare]

Look, I think we can all agree that AA will not pay $50/hr, along with all the other perks at UPS, & WN because AA knows we're weak. Besides, I don't believe the TWU has the nads of proposing as such. Can someone please answer one thing regarding our negotiations......does anyone really know our table positions as far as wages, benefits & work rules. I hear a lot of rhetoric from our TWU leadership regarding other airline T/A's, but I don't see proposals to AA that equal these T/A's. Why not? Anybody?

Strike...I think you know the answer.

 

[enough already]

STRIKE??? Seriously?!?!? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Wah we cain't go own strack! Ah gotta pay fer mah new pick-em-up truk and mah new bass rig!!

For those of you that don't speak Okie Redneck:
Why we can't go on strike! I've got to pay for my new pick-up truck and my new bass boat!! :blink:

 

[787nightmare]

I was referring to his username "strikeforce"...

but I totally get what you're saying. I used to wk in TULE as a scheduler.
I know the deal...

 

[strikeforce]

Strike...I think you know the answer.

school me......nightmare? Really, what's our table position? $35....$37.....$40.....tell me!

 

[787nightmare]

school me......nightmare? Really, what's our table position? $35....$37.....$40.....tell me!

Re-read your post again...(must've got distracted here at work or something, sorry for off the wall reply)

I was more addressing WHAT I feel you're going to have to do to get what YOU guys want.
Which, the TWU is not interesting in letting you guys do.

And that's what you know the answer to... strike AA. I hope I'm wrong though...

 

[787nightmare]

You guys just turned down 39/hr didn't you??

 

[Deleted member 14439]

You guys just turned down 39/hr didn't you??

Uh, 39/hr for which fortunate few? At what cost? No we rejected yet another wholly concessionary contract and will continue to do so.

 

[787nightmare]

Uh, 39/hr for which fortunate few? At what cost? No we rejected yet another wholly concessionary contract and will continue to do so.

I thought I read somewhere on here that the rejected T/A was around 39/hr top out. Guess I have it wrong?
Understand why you guys rejected it for sure!

Btw, I've heard nothing yet re: AFW submittal.

 

[Interested]

I thought I read somewhere on here that the rejected T/A was around 39/hr top out. Guess I have it wrong?
Understand why you guys rejected it for sure!

Btw, I've heard nothing yet re: AFW submittal.

I'm pretty sure that $39.00 top out was only for a line mechanic working midnights.