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Luv Into Phl
- Thread starter Furloughedagain
- Start date
Chip Posted: Oct 29 2003, 05:49 PM
Has it been a year already? Wow...time sure flys when your company is broke. Oh, wait, it hasn't been a year yet....but it is right around the corner...December, right?
Does United have exit financing...hmmmm, I don't know. Perhaps they do! But, unlike another formerly (and about to be again) bankrupt carrier, they just may be waiting to announce their plans until they feel that all unturned rocks have been looked at thoroughly. Why emerge prematurely and then risk the chance of going back to ch 11? Tilton stated that he would not emerge until he felt that everything had been completely covered. UAL has been in bk for 10 months, they are completely within the time frame they originally stated they would be.
I can say with absolute certainty, I NEVER want to go through CH 11 again, so I say: Glen....take your time, do it right the first time.
Has it been a year already? Wow...time sure flys when your company is broke. Oh, wait, it hasn't been a year yet....but it is right around the corner...December, right?
Does United have exit financing...hmmmm, I don't know. Perhaps they do! But, unlike another formerly (and about to be again) bankrupt carrier, they just may be waiting to announce their plans until they feel that all unturned rocks have been looked at thoroughly. Why emerge prematurely and then risk the chance of going back to ch 11? Tilton stated that he would not emerge until he felt that everything had been completely covered. UAL has been in bk for 10 months, they are completely within the time frame they originally stated they would be.
I can say with absolute certainty, I NEVER want to go through CH 11 again, so I say: Glen....take your time, do it right the first time.
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
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Pacemaker:
Your analysis is flawed and does not provide accurate information.
The supplemental restructuring agreement requires the company to fly its 279 fleet a minimum of 10 hours per day per aircraft, which equals the manning required in the most recent pilot bid. ALPA is closely watching the block hours and the company has met this commitment.
In regard to the TOS issue, you're correct. The demographics of US Airways employees who are at the top of the TOS wage rates increases the company's employee costs over the LCC's. Therefore, for those who want the LCC contracts, do you also want to start at entry level TOS pay rates?
I disagree with your myopic view and as I said before, MDA, the Pittsburgh hub negotiations, route reallocation, alliance cost synergies, fleet simplification, internet sales penetration, increased Kiosk use, Pref Bid, pension legislative relief, and yes, A320 heavy maintenance outsourcing are all examples of cost cuts that will not largely effect active employees. These are all pending and possible cost cuts, yet to be realized.
Do more cuts need to come and will they, one way or another, absolutely or the company will fail.
Finally, if you truly believe "this horse has run it's race", with the restructuring plan yet to unfold and nearly $2 billion cash on hand, then I suggest you look for employment elsewhere.
Regards,
Chip
Your analysis is flawed and does not provide accurate information.
The supplemental restructuring agreement requires the company to fly its 279 fleet a minimum of 10 hours per day per aircraft, which equals the manning required in the most recent pilot bid. ALPA is closely watching the block hours and the company has met this commitment.
In regard to the TOS issue, you're correct. The demographics of US Airways employees who are at the top of the TOS wage rates increases the company's employee costs over the LCC's. Therefore, for those who want the LCC contracts, do you also want to start at entry level TOS pay rates?
I disagree with your myopic view and as I said before, MDA, the Pittsburgh hub negotiations, route reallocation, alliance cost synergies, fleet simplification, internet sales penetration, increased Kiosk use, Pref Bid, pension legislative relief, and yes, A320 heavy maintenance outsourcing are all examples of cost cuts that will not largely effect active employees. These are all pending and possible cost cuts, yet to be realized.
Do more cuts need to come and will they, one way or another, absolutely or the company will fail.
Finally, if you truly believe "this horse has run it's race", with the restructuring plan yet to unfold and nearly $2 billion cash on hand, then I suggest you look for employment elsewhere.
Regards,
Chip
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
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Fly:
Or could it be with unfolding events, nobody is interested in providing United with exit financing and that's why the company is talking with interested parties about selling United assets?
Regards,
Chip
Or could it be with unfolding events, nobody is interested in providing United with exit financing and that's why the company is talking with interested parties about selling United assets?
Regards,
Chip
Chip, would I give 50-70% to save this company.....like others I already have. In 1989 I LOST MY PENSION, went without a raise for years while this company paid your counterparts F28 wages (WHAT $49,000.00 a year) to sit home on there A$$E$. If your group even cared about this company except for the ME ME ME Attitude (Remember the Maintenance Strike without YOUR SUPPORT) our COMPANY OWNED EXPRESS carriers would already have plenty of RJ's on property to compete. Bottom line is FACT.....You sit there and preach about how ALL the other groups should GIVE, GIVE, GIVE and when the Company asks your Group all of a sudden the tone in your voice changes. Remember something Captain..........you couldn't even hold a Full-Time job in about 85% of our mainline Stations....So get off your soapbox and STOP preaching. Current Management is HORRIBLE........we had our chances to change for the better and Dave and Ben blew it, Plain and Simple. When will Alabama Dave B say enough is enough.
ClueByFour
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
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The only reason for the move to PHL is because that happens to be where the court sits.Chip Munn said:
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
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Hope777:
Hope777 said: “In 1989 I LOST MY PENSION.â€
Chip comments: Hope, with all due respect you did not lose your pension, it was frozen. In fact, I would love to have had my pension frozen instead of terminated.
Hope777 said: “went without a raise for years while this company paid your counterparts F28 wages (WHAT $49,000.00 a year) to sit home on there A$$E$.â€
Chip comments: Hope, the F28 pay ssue was due to the no furlough clause, which was obtained for other givebacks.
Hope said: “If your group even cared about this company except for the ME ME ME Attitude (Remember the Maintenance Strike without YOUR SUPPORT) our COMPANY OWNED EXPRESS carriers would already have plenty of RJ's on property to compete.â€
Chip comments: Hope, I agree and that’s one of the reason why we got rid of the previous MEC.
Hope said: “You sit there and preach about how ALL the other groups should GIVE, GIVE, GIVE. and when the Company asks your Group all of a sudden the tone in your voice changes.â€
Chip comments: When did I do that? With all due respect, ALPA is the only employee group to provide two direct W-2 cuts, was the only employee group to meet its company cost cut targets, and the only employee group to have its pension terminated (not frozen, which we would love – in fact, we would love to have our pension frozen like the CWA represented employees did).
Hope777 said “Captain..........you couldn't even hold a Full-Time job in about 85% of our mainline Stations....So get off your soapbox and STOP preaching.“
Chip comments: Hope, I’m not sure what you mean, but I know I can hold a job outside of US Airways that is near my current pay.
Chip concludes: Hope, the world is changing and will never be the same. Either US Airways changes or it dies. It’s really quit simple. Do I like it…no I do not, but it’s a fact.
Regards,
Chip
Hope777 said: “In 1989 I LOST MY PENSION.â€
Chip comments: Hope, with all due respect you did not lose your pension, it was frozen. In fact, I would love to have had my pension frozen instead of terminated.
Hope777 said: “went without a raise for years while this company paid your counterparts F28 wages (WHAT $49,000.00 a year) to sit home on there A$$E$.â€
Chip comments: Hope, the F28 pay ssue was due to the no furlough clause, which was obtained for other givebacks.
Hope said: “If your group even cared about this company except for the ME ME ME Attitude (Remember the Maintenance Strike without YOUR SUPPORT) our COMPANY OWNED EXPRESS carriers would already have plenty of RJ's on property to compete.â€
Chip comments: Hope, I agree and that’s one of the reason why we got rid of the previous MEC.
Hope said: “You sit there and preach about how ALL the other groups should GIVE, GIVE, GIVE. and when the Company asks your Group all of a sudden the tone in your voice changes.â€
Chip comments: When did I do that? With all due respect, ALPA is the only employee group to provide two direct W-2 cuts, was the only employee group to meet its company cost cut targets, and the only employee group to have its pension terminated (not frozen, which we would love – in fact, we would love to have our pension frozen like the CWA represented employees did).
Hope777 said “Captain..........you couldn't even hold a Full-Time job in about 85% of our mainline Stations....So get off your soapbox and STOP preaching.“
Chip comments: Hope, I’m not sure what you mean, but I know I can hold a job outside of US Airways that is near my current pay.
Chip concludes: Hope, the world is changing and will never be the same. Either US Airways changes or it dies. It’s really quit simple. Do I like it…no I do not, but it’s a fact.
Regards,
Chip
Dilligas
Veteran
Bob,PineyBob said:
I have nothing but respect for Herb and Southwest and their employees. A company with a solid plan and intelligent strategy that values its' employees and customers... what a concept! Feel the LUV. I wish them only continued success. Your insults are degrading and unfair.
No LUV employee will quit his job with one of the best employers in America because of some "atty-tude" of a competitor. Ridiculous comment, with a rather sinister insinuation to boot.
It never ceases to amaze me how people who have never worked a day in this industry, but because they buy our product, think they know how to run an airline. Every guy whose butt has warmed a seat thinks he's an airline guru. What other industries do you share your "wisdom" with? Do you tell the gas station attendant where the next oil well should be drilled? Advise the bookstore clerk how to write the next great novel?
Hey, I made some photocopies today, I think I'll tell you how to run the copier industry.
Get a clue. Or are you just a trojan horse? Why do you have such an obsession with US Airways and spend sooooo much time on this board? Seems a bit out of proportion for such a hard working corporate player. When do you work?
The type of posts you are making lately have lessened my respect for your opinion.
And by the way, our "nutz" are just fine, and we are fighting the real enemy. We know exactly who they are.
USA320Pilot
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- May 18, 2003
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Hope777:
Just one more thing…
The pilot group represents about 10% of the employees, the pilots are 30% of the labor expense, and we provided 60% of the concessions. In addition, we are the only employees who had their pension terminated, not frozen, which cost us between 50% to 70% of our retirement benefits – to save the company.
In addition, we were the only employee group to meet the company’s cost cut targets.
Regards,
Chip
Just one more thing…
The pilot group represents about 10% of the employees, the pilots are 30% of the labor expense, and we provided 60% of the concessions. In addition, we are the only employees who had their pension terminated, not frozen, which cost us between 50% to 70% of our retirement benefits – to save the company.
In addition, we were the only employee group to meet the company’s cost cut targets.
Regards,
Chip
Chip Munn Posted on Oct 29 2003, 10:45 PM
Well, misery loves company Chip. At least we have each other, huh Chip? And who do you think is buying UAL assets Chip? Does anyone with money really want our assets Chip? The airlines with money aren't buying UAL's assets Chip, they seem more interested in U's. Right now, it looks like the airlines with money are eyeing Philadelphia, Chip. They aren't buying PHL, they are just showing up for the game Chip.
Chip, if an airline with money (that's the key
) wants what UAL has, they will take it. Just like they are going to do over in PHL, Chip.
Well, misery loves company Chip. At least we have each other, huh Chip? And who do you think is buying UAL assets Chip? Does anyone with money really want our assets Chip? The airlines with money aren't buying UAL's assets Chip, they seem more interested in U's. Right now, it looks like the airlines with money are eyeing Philadelphia, Chip. They aren't buying PHL, they are just showing up for the game Chip.
Chip, if an airline with money (that's the key
) wants what UAL has, they will take it. Just like they are going to do over in PHL, Chip.
Dilligas
Veteran
Perhaps it was relating to company seniority and what it takes to hold a job these days. At least that's how I read it.Chip Munn said:
As far as your career opportunities, explore them... your left seat days are fading faster than you can say UCT.
Pacemaker
Senior
- Sep 3, 2002
- 475
- 0
Thanks for the advice Chip, I'm avidly seeking employment along with 10,000 other highly qualified pilots.
I stand by my comments - Dave wants to have his cake and eat it too. Non-W2 cuts such as the ones you listed will have some effect but will not get our costs down to the point where we have a real answer for the Southwests and jetBlues of the world.
I'm particulary troubled by your intimation - and perhaps it is only that- echoing what Dave said in the infamous disappearing email - that the seniority/longevity disparity is somehow our fault or indeed solveable. Perhaps Dave has a fantasy where each US Airways employee has the choice of being fired or starting over again at year one for contract purposes, but again this ignores reality. That's the essence of my post - to a large extent you cannot change this tigers' stripes. Short-haul, overlapping hubs, labor intensive, relatively inefficient, highly seniority workforce; none of these can really be changed in any substantial way. So I say if you or anyone else thinks US Airways [mainline] can offer a solution to the LCC problem with kiosks, pref. bidding, and MDA, then you're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
If you are suggesting that the solution really lies with transferring the heart - ultimately maybe all - of the mainline to MDA and using that as an upstart,low wage response to the LCC's, then I think you're on to something. But since MDA will not be flying US Airways mainline airplanes or employing US Airways mainline employees, then perhaps all such discussions need to be moved into a new "Mid Atlantic" Forum.
I stand by my comments - Dave wants to have his cake and eat it too. Non-W2 cuts such as the ones you listed will have some effect but will not get our costs down to the point where we have a real answer for the Southwests and jetBlues of the world.
I'm particulary troubled by your intimation - and perhaps it is only that- echoing what Dave said in the infamous disappearing email - that the seniority/longevity disparity is somehow our fault or indeed solveable. Perhaps Dave has a fantasy where each US Airways employee has the choice of being fired or starting over again at year one for contract purposes, but again this ignores reality. That's the essence of my post - to a large extent you cannot change this tigers' stripes. Short-haul, overlapping hubs, labor intensive, relatively inefficient, highly seniority workforce; none of these can really be changed in any substantial way. So I say if you or anyone else thinks US Airways [mainline] can offer a solution to the LCC problem with kiosks, pref. bidding, and MDA, then you're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
If you are suggesting that the solution really lies with transferring the heart - ultimately maybe all - of the mainline to MDA and using that as an upstart,low wage response to the LCC's, then I think you're on to something. But since MDA will not be flying US Airways mainline airplanes or employing US Airways mainline employees, then perhaps all such discussions need to be moved into a new "Mid Atlantic" Forum.
ClueByFour
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,566
- 37
I'm going to address the quoted points one at a time.Hawk said:
1. US management had their chance. Chapter 11 is the ultimate stick. Every advantage is with the company. Failure to see less than 12 months into the future post-emergence indicates that the current executive team has very little strategic planning and forecasting ability. Judging by the egregious actions of the company post emergence (notably the bait-and-switch on the pilot pension issue and the swing at the fences to end-run the mechs' scope clause), there is ample evidence to suggest that the executive suite lacks the oft-quoted ability to adapt to a changing environment. Frankly, if costs are rearing their ugly head just under a year after emergence, why should anyone trust the strategic business plan or anything else generated by the current executive team?
2. See #1. You asked, they answered. You really should have forseen the current problem, and/or tried to approach it when you had the gun and labor had the proverbial slingshot.
3. See #1 and #2. Bankruptcy is the ultimate forum for cost reduction. Further, there have been ample chances for cost reductions (perhaps a bit of elbow grease and an extra mech or two in the PHL bag room for starteres) on an ongoing operational basis. They have been posted here, communicated to US by passengers thru Consumer Affairs, via e-mails to the executive suite, and so forth. So far as this layman can tell, they have all been ignored. These actions are in line with the school of thought that any decent operational talent is absent in the current ranks of upper management at US, and probably beat down in the ranks of middle management (for fear of actually approaching upper management to "spend a few bucks to save millions), and largely ignored coming from labor. Want a lesson on how to find ideas (listen to the employees) and perfect operational processes? Wait until LUV comes to Philly and sent the MBA interns from CCY with clipboards and pencils.
4. Perhaps. What does it tell you that your customers and the Street are laughing at both the operational aspects (tactical) and long term vision (strategic) of the Company? Respect is earned. Results are king. Once either is obtained, I'm sure criticism of the current executive crop will stop.
I'll disclaim the following thusly: I work in a team leadership position in a Fortune 500 that makes things (some of which can be found on US aircraft), we have a large corporate contract with US, we will make more on the bottom line and return more this year in the dividend than US has cumulatively since about 1990 (and it's a bad year), and I'm currently US1. That said:
1. In any other industry, the fact that cost out was not "completed" in Chapter 11 would have resulted in the sacking of the current executive team by this point.
2. Cost out should start with the operational problems that the company is currently facing by taking the very valuable input from employees and customers alike--BEFORE labor is hammered again for cost reduction. It also lets folks know that the value and hard work and ideas generated by the very best workforce in the business is having a positive impact.
3. Ditch BBB. Treat your customer as if you value them, not despise them for seeking value. Want to know why LUV and B6 are picking up the "lucrative business traffic" in leaps and bounds? Simple:
A. They are not customer unfriendly. Nothing like the turd that BBB dropped last year.
B. They don't nickle and dime you to death. See change fees and the like. Before anybody mentions the standby issue on LUV, see "C."
C. Because of A and B, their value proposition is easy to understand. This is key for the leisure traveler as well, as they know they won't get boned if their plans change, and they can take advantage of one way fares. If I want to take another flight, I have to buy up, but I don't lose my shirt and a hundred bucks in the process.
D. Their FF program, while not having to deal with things like upgrades and the like, actually works. If we have a seat to sell, you can get it (without having to "buy up" to a "premium award" and the like.
E. They do things like clean the planes. Enough said.
Walk over and watch LUV, or send some folks to Six Sigma training. While defects, as such, are not the problem, the absolute inability to define and refine some processes (where applicable) to the way the current LUV model works would probably save you guys 10 or 20 mil a year without breaking a sweat.
FlyingHippie
Senior
- Jan 27, 2003
- 283
- 0
737inChap11, we're used to a CEO with no people or operational skills. Siegel's batting zero, Dutta .500, what would you choose? Hmmm.
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
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Fly:
Southwest is adding 14 daily flights per day in PHL, but US Airways has a LCC product that will have a lower break even load factor than JetBlue's EMB-190, according to corporate executives.
The Southwest Philadelphia entry will be another challenge, but it certainly will not create the company's death in itself.
In regard to yoru comments regarding United and US Airways, let's not forget US Airways' chairman of the board, David Bronner, has publicly speculated that United has a 50-50 chance of surviving. He said that if United were to sell assets, he (RSA) would consider backing the purchase of some "if it would be beneficial to US Airways."
The issue is the asset sale is it could help both companies. The sale could provide United with exit financing versus liquidating and permit US Airways to extend its stage length, lower its unit costs, and redistribute its assets to higher revenue markets, primarily in the international arena.
The difference here between US Airways and other airlines is that the Arlington-based company, for whatever reason, has a "sugar daddy" to provide financing, if he desires.
Will it occur? Maybe, maybe not, but I believe the LCC expansion/threat could increase Bronner's motivation to acquire United assets at bargain prices to protect his US Airways investment.
Regards,
Chip
Southwest is adding 14 daily flights per day in PHL, but US Airways has a LCC product that will have a lower break even load factor than JetBlue's EMB-190, according to corporate executives.
The Southwest Philadelphia entry will be another challenge, but it certainly will not create the company's death in itself.
In regard to yoru comments regarding United and US Airways, let's not forget US Airways' chairman of the board, David Bronner, has publicly speculated that United has a 50-50 chance of surviving. He said that if United were to sell assets, he (RSA) would consider backing the purchase of some "if it would be beneficial to US Airways."
The issue is the asset sale is it could help both companies. The sale could provide United with exit financing versus liquidating and permit US Airways to extend its stage length, lower its unit costs, and redistribute its assets to higher revenue markets, primarily in the international arena.
The difference here between US Airways and other airlines is that the Arlington-based company, for whatever reason, has a "sugar daddy" to provide financing, if he desires.
Will it occur? Maybe, maybe not, but I believe the LCC expansion/threat could increase Bronner's motivation to acquire United assets at bargain prices to protect his US Airways investment.
Regards,
Chip
