T-bone
Advanced
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2003
- Messages
- 239
- Reaction score
- 2
Luv Into Phl
- Thread starter Furloughedagain
- Start date
supercruiser
Advanced
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2002
- Messages
- 213
- Reaction score
- 11
In other words, it's labor's fault we're in this predicament, once again. This coming from management naturally, where the NON LABOR casm is now just north of 7.5, in spite of just coming out of Ch 11. Are you ever going to address this, or are you just hoping that the employees eventually work for free, to get down to a cost where you think you can compete? I guess the almost $100 million in pay/productivity you get EVERY month from the employees just isn't cutting it.Hawk said:
You've systematically cut off the revenue generating arms and legs of this company, and now you wonder why we are having trouble walking and feeding ourselves? Operationally, this is the worst it's ever been in the almost 18 years I've been here. Since 1979, over 150 airlines have gone bankrupt, some with well known names, many without, and the employee costs of many were a fraction of ours. You think labor costs were the reason for their demise, or simply management that didn't know how to operationally run an airline, or design and implement a successful business plan?
The name calling and criticism is not only coming from your employees, but from customers, analysts, and others in this industry, including some of your colleagues at other airlines. It's for a good reason, as it's apparent you and your team DO NOT know how to operationally run an airline and implement a successful business plan! It's time to look straight into that mirror when figuring out where the problem lies.
Dave Siegel and his team have lost the trust and confidence in just about every person they have come into contact with since they came to US Airways. The employees will never ever support this management now, as they have been lied to and treated as if they were the cause of the company's problems. There's still time to right this ship that the management team at this company has crippled, but not with the current leadership.
Straw poll from 5 pages of responses to your post seems to be severe vote of NO CONFIDENCE, including mine.
supercruiser
Sepp Dietrich
Newbie
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2003
- Messages
- 4
- Reaction score
- 0
Call me cynical but, weren't you given these tools in bankruptcy? After two rounds of employee concessions you still don't have the tools needed to be competitive?Hawk said:
What was the purpose of Chapter 11 then?
Once could wonder why TPG "Allowed" themselves to be outbid by RSA as the DIP financiers.I mean come on, a group with a Proven record of airline turn arounds lets itself be outfoxed by RSA? Doesn't pass muster IMO.
You say the employees must make a commitment to work with this management team? They did,TWICE.
The name calling and criticism must end? Respect is Earned not given away like cigars in the maternity ward waiting room.
If you are management at this airline you need to focus on running the company, not browbeating the hired help on a message board.You already have someone on this board doing that for you.
Southwest move may mean adios for airline
Analysts: US Airways must slash costs more if it hopes to survive
Thursday, October 30, 2003
Frank Reeves, Post-Gazette Staff Writer
When Southwest Airlines Chairman Herb Kelleher announced this week that his discount airline planned to attack US Airways on its turf in Philadelphia, he tried to be polite.
But when pressed by a reporter, Kelleher acknowledged that US Airways' weak financial condition made it a tempting target -- so tempting that the Dallas-based airline broke with its usual strategy of avoiding congested airports and not taking on major carriers in their hubs.
"It would be unfair to say that we didn't take [US Airways' shaky financial condition] into account" when deciding to begin service in the spring in Philadelphia, Kelleher said.
Though he was quick to add that the nation's fourth largest metropolitan area had long been in the discount carrier's sights. "It's a very high priced market," which hasn't been developed to its potential, Kelleher said -- a statement underscored by the fact that despite its large population, Philadelphia's airport accounts is only the nation's 18th-busiest.
The boldness of Southwest's decision didn't go unnoticed by some industry analysts, who saw it as a sign of US Airways' vulnerability.
"There is definitely blood in the water," said analyst Ray Neidl of Blaylock & Partners in New York, comparing US Airways to a wounded animal that attracts sharks. "Southwest looked at US Airways' cost structure, realized it wasn't making money even after reorganization under bankruptcy, and decided that it was now to time to move before another low-cost carrier moved in.''
Kevin Mitchell, chairman of the Radnor, Pa.-based Business Travel Coalition, said that if he were US Airways management, he would find it most unsettling that Southwest apparently "concluded that US Airways might not be around very long. And if US Airways went under, Southwest would own Philadelphia before another low-cost carrier came in."
Neidl said US Airways Chief Executive Officer David Siegel did a good job obtaining cost-savings concessions during bankruptcy reorganization. "But the revenues aren't coming back as fast as many thought. Siegel has got to get his [costs] down even more or go to a different business model," Neidl said. One option might be for US Airways to become a strong regional airline.
It is similar to the message Siegel's been preaching at every turn.
He again warned this week that low-cost carriers are "the toughest competitive challenge" US Airways and other a major carriers have ever faced. These weren't idle words. When Southwest began service at Baltimore-Washington International Airport in the 1990s, US Airways was the dominant carrier. Now it ranks a distant No. 3, having been easily supplanted by Southwest.
To fend off challenges from Southwest and other low-cost carriers, US Airways must reduce its cost structure, Siegel said. Even US Airways' code-sharing alliances and far-flung network won't enable it to compete with the discount airlines unless it can get costs low enough that what it charges for tickets is competitive with what the low-cost airlines charge.
At the core of the effort, as has been the case for more than a decade, are labor costs.
But if Siegel intends to seek more concessions from the airline's unionized workers, it is likely to be a hard sell. US Airways employees, who last year agreed to $1 billion in annual wage and benefit cuts, appear to be in no mood to give any more.
"We've certainly stepped up to the plate. Our concessions alone have taken the company out of bankruptcy," said Jack Stephan, spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA). "The ALPA well of concessions has dried up."
In two rounds of negotiations, US Airways' unionized pilots agreed to about $566 million in annual concession and allowed the airline to terminate the pilots' pension plan and replace it with a less generous one.
Stephan said the pilots are waiting to see whether Siegel and his "management team can a run an airline and not just say, 'We've got to take more from employees.' "
William Lauer, chairman of Tarentum-based Allegheny Capital Management, which previously had invested in US Airways, said that the airline and its unions "are heading into another round of negotiations."
And Mitchell, of the Business Travel Coalition, said the airline's need to cut costs and employees' resistance to further concessions "portends for a lot of pain and struggle over the next year. It guarantees that US Airways goes into a second round of bankruptcy."
If the airline again files for Chapter 11 protection, it would give it broad authority to abrogate existing union contracts and impose new work rules and salary cuts on its employees.
Still, while some analysts seem ready to concede that Southwest will quickly supplant US Airways as the dominant carrier in Philadelphia, Lauer isn't that pessimistic. He said Southwest faces some difficult challenges in Philadelphia.
The Southwest strategy relies on its ability to turn around flights quickly on its point-to-point routes. This may prove difficult at Philadelphia International Airport, which despite a decline in air traffic since Sept.. 11, still is congested because "there's not enough launch and landing space," Lauer said.
Analysts: US Airways must slash costs more if it hopes to survive
Thursday, October 30, 2003
Frank Reeves, Post-Gazette Staff Writer
When Southwest Airlines Chairman Herb Kelleher announced this week that his discount airline planned to attack US Airways on its turf in Philadelphia, he tried to be polite.
But when pressed by a reporter, Kelleher acknowledged that US Airways' weak financial condition made it a tempting target -- so tempting that the Dallas-based airline broke with its usual strategy of avoiding congested airports and not taking on major carriers in their hubs.
"It would be unfair to say that we didn't take [US Airways' shaky financial condition] into account" when deciding to begin service in the spring in Philadelphia, Kelleher said.
Though he was quick to add that the nation's fourth largest metropolitan area had long been in the discount carrier's sights. "It's a very high priced market," which hasn't been developed to its potential, Kelleher said -- a statement underscored by the fact that despite its large population, Philadelphia's airport accounts is only the nation's 18th-busiest.
The boldness of Southwest's decision didn't go unnoticed by some industry analysts, who saw it as a sign of US Airways' vulnerability.
"There is definitely blood in the water," said analyst Ray Neidl of Blaylock & Partners in New York, comparing US Airways to a wounded animal that attracts sharks. "Southwest looked at US Airways' cost structure, realized it wasn't making money even after reorganization under bankruptcy, and decided that it was now to time to move before another low-cost carrier moved in.''
Kevin Mitchell, chairman of the Radnor, Pa.-based Business Travel Coalition, said that if he were US Airways management, he would find it most unsettling that Southwest apparently "concluded that US Airways might not be around very long. And if US Airways went under, Southwest would own Philadelphia before another low-cost carrier came in."
Neidl said US Airways Chief Executive Officer David Siegel did a good job obtaining cost-savings concessions during bankruptcy reorganization. "But the revenues aren't coming back as fast as many thought. Siegel has got to get his [costs] down even more or go to a different business model," Neidl said. One option might be for US Airways to become a strong regional airline.
It is similar to the message Siegel's been preaching at every turn.
He again warned this week that low-cost carriers are "the toughest competitive challenge" US Airways and other a major carriers have ever faced. These weren't idle words. When Southwest began service at Baltimore-Washington International Airport in the 1990s, US Airways was the dominant carrier. Now it ranks a distant No. 3, having been easily supplanted by Southwest.
To fend off challenges from Southwest and other low-cost carriers, US Airways must reduce its cost structure, Siegel said. Even US Airways' code-sharing alliances and far-flung network won't enable it to compete with the discount airlines unless it can get costs low enough that what it charges for tickets is competitive with what the low-cost airlines charge.
At the core of the effort, as has been the case for more than a decade, are labor costs.
But if Siegel intends to seek more concessions from the airline's unionized workers, it is likely to be a hard sell. US Airways employees, who last year agreed to $1 billion in annual wage and benefit cuts, appear to be in no mood to give any more.
"We've certainly stepped up to the plate. Our concessions alone have taken the company out of bankruptcy," said Jack Stephan, spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA). "The ALPA well of concessions has dried up."
In two rounds of negotiations, US Airways' unionized pilots agreed to about $566 million in annual concession and allowed the airline to terminate the pilots' pension plan and replace it with a less generous one.
Stephan said the pilots are waiting to see whether Siegel and his "management team can a run an airline and not just say, 'We've got to take more from employees.' "
William Lauer, chairman of Tarentum-based Allegheny Capital Management, which previously had invested in US Airways, said that the airline and its unions "are heading into another round of negotiations."
And Mitchell, of the Business Travel Coalition, said the airline's need to cut costs and employees' resistance to further concessions "portends for a lot of pain and struggle over the next year. It guarantees that US Airways goes into a second round of bankruptcy."
If the airline again files for Chapter 11 protection, it would give it broad authority to abrogate existing union contracts and impose new work rules and salary cuts on its employees.
Still, while some analysts seem ready to concede that Southwest will quickly supplant US Airways as the dominant carrier in Philadelphia, Lauer isn't that pessimistic. He said Southwest faces some difficult challenges in Philadelphia.
The Southwest strategy relies on its ability to turn around flights quickly on its point-to-point routes. This may prove difficult at Philadelphia International Airport, which despite a decline in air traffic since Sept.. 11, still is congested because "there's not enough launch and landing space," Lauer said.
KCFlyer
Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2002
- Messages
- 11,372
- Reaction score
- 1,431
You're right - passengers will figure out sooner than some other airline employees that there are far more nonstop/one stop with change of planes in the Southwest system than there are 3 stops. How many stops BWI-LAX on SWA...why I do believe I see some big old "goose eggs" in the number of stops. And I see 6 one stops with a change... You think they are going to route someone from PHL to MCO/MCI/ABQ/PHX/LAX? I don't think so.Colby said:
PITbull
Veteran
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2002
- Messages
- 7,784
- Reaction score
- 456
The employees aren't willing to give on red cent in cost savings to this management team.
Dr. Bonehead better get busy looking for another team, or he can kiss his airline and say "good night".
This management has received amazingly billions and billions in cost savings from employees, lessors, vendors, government, even through major contract violations along with 20,000 jobs gone, and LUV comes into Philly tip toeing through the tulips", and U starts crying wha, wha, wha, wha, boo, hoo.
If this management has any guts, hit LUV straight on, don't run and don't hide. Start treating your employees with utmost respect as if they are U's number #1 customer.
Provide the best service, timely, and efficient. Bring on more staff to clean the planes, feed the folks, and SIMPLIFY THE DAMN FARES. U should be able to do this as we are the very FIRST airline to emerge from BK, and restructure. We are in position to succeed. Employees are on board, where are you?????
0-P-E-R-AT-E T-H-E A-I-R-L-I-N-E
MANAGMENT,
Start "unloading" some of the dead weight on this property. YOUR TOO TOP HEAVY!
EITHER SHOW US WHAT YOUR MADE OF.....OR GET THE HELL OFF OUR PLANET!!!
Dr. Bonehead better get busy looking for another team, or he can kiss his airline and say "good night".
This management has received amazingly billions and billions in cost savings from employees, lessors, vendors, government, even through major contract violations along with 20,000 jobs gone, and LUV comes into Philly tip toeing through the tulips", and U starts crying wha, wha, wha, wha, boo, hoo.
If this management has any guts, hit LUV straight on, don't run and don't hide. Start treating your employees with utmost respect as if they are U's number #1 customer.
Provide the best service, timely, and efficient. Bring on more staff to clean the planes, feed the folks, and SIMPLIFY THE DAMN FARES. U should be able to do this as we are the very FIRST airline to emerge from BK, and restructure. We are in position to succeed. Employees are on board, where are you?????
0-P-E-R-AT-E T-H-E A-I-R-L-I-N-E
MANAGMENT,
Start "unloading" some of the dead weight on this property. YOUR TOO TOP HEAVY!
EITHER SHOW US WHAT YOUR MADE OF.....OR GET THE HELL OFF OUR PLANET!!!
ringmaruf
Veteran
Pretty fair editorial (I think) in Thursday's Philadelphia Daily News. Although they just had to mention WN's "legendary" service, and I'm not sure how WN will be getting "hundreds" of flights out of 8 gates. 🙄 Anyway, here it is:
http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/o...ion/7137706.htm
FLYING THE CHEAPER SKIES
SOUTHWEST'S PHILLY CONNECTION IS 1st CLASS NEWS
IN THE world of airlines and airports, getting Southwest Airlines to come to Philadelphia International Airport is like copping the "Holy Grail."
That's what airport director Charles Isdell called Southwest when he and the airline's chairman, Herbert D. Kelleher, met the national press in a conference call Tuesday. He said that Southwest's announcement that in May it will add Philadelphia to the 58 airports it serves represents his "wildest dreams."
The Holy Grail quip is not hyperbole: The low fares and legendary service provided by the nation's largest discount carrier is sure to drastically lower fares in Philadelphia across the board, as it has in other markets.
That, in turn, will convince many more people to choose to fly in and out of Philadelphia which - among other things - will provide more visitors for this town to love back. Southwest will start out with four gates and 14 departures a day, but will have room and opportunity to grow to eight gates and hundreds more flights.
It's obvious that one of the attractions of Philadelphia is that the US Airways hub here - and its lion's share of the business - means Philadelphia fares are way high, and a perfect target for Southwest.
In Kelleher's words, the costs have "suppressed" airport business in Philadelphia for years. Philadelphia International is 19th in the nation in passenger volume, way too low for this population center.
At the same time, Kelleher credited Isdell and his staff for showing ingenuity and creativity in finding the airline the gates and other services it needed to come here.
With about 100 other city suitors, Southwest's choice of Philadelphia as its first new airport in more than two years has got to do a lot for our self-image. But Philadelphia surely can't afford to have US Airways, which emerged from Chapter 11 bankruptcy a few months ago, fail. Not only does US Airways employ 5,600 workers in this region, it also puts most of the "international" into Philadelphia International, and provides much of Philadelphia's service to middle-size cities.
The best of all worlds is for US Airways to find a way to become profitable. The city should use whatever ingenuity and creativity it can find to help make that happen.
http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/o...ion/7137706.htm
FLYING THE CHEAPER SKIES
SOUTHWEST'S PHILLY CONNECTION IS 1st CLASS NEWS
IN THE world of airlines and airports, getting Southwest Airlines to come to Philadelphia International Airport is like copping the "Holy Grail."
That's what airport director Charles Isdell called Southwest when he and the airline's chairman, Herbert D. Kelleher, met the national press in a conference call Tuesday. He said that Southwest's announcement that in May it will add Philadelphia to the 58 airports it serves represents his "wildest dreams."
The Holy Grail quip is not hyperbole: The low fares and legendary service provided by the nation's largest discount carrier is sure to drastically lower fares in Philadelphia across the board, as it has in other markets.
That, in turn, will convince many more people to choose to fly in and out of Philadelphia which - among other things - will provide more visitors for this town to love back. Southwest will start out with four gates and 14 departures a day, but will have room and opportunity to grow to eight gates and hundreds more flights.
It's obvious that one of the attractions of Philadelphia is that the US Airways hub here - and its lion's share of the business - means Philadelphia fares are way high, and a perfect target for Southwest.
In Kelleher's words, the costs have "suppressed" airport business in Philadelphia for years. Philadelphia International is 19th in the nation in passenger volume, way too low for this population center.
At the same time, Kelleher credited Isdell and his staff for showing ingenuity and creativity in finding the airline the gates and other services it needed to come here.
With about 100 other city suitors, Southwest's choice of Philadelphia as its first new airport in more than two years has got to do a lot for our self-image. But Philadelphia surely can't afford to have US Airways, which emerged from Chapter 11 bankruptcy a few months ago, fail. Not only does US Airways employ 5,600 workers in this region, it also puts most of the "international" into Philadelphia International, and provides much of Philadelphia's service to middle-size cities.
The best of all worlds is for US Airways to find a way to become profitable. The city should use whatever ingenuity and creativity it can find to help make that happen.
"It's the yields, stupid". You finish U off and open up virtually every good sized market on the East Coast. Take a look at the license plates in airport lots like PVD and BWI. People will drive a hundred miles for a cheap fare. WN arrives in PHL, and drives a stake through the heart of U's recovery plan, which is already sputtering. Heavy use of commuter planes eliminates the differences between full service and LCC (which has already happened with the virtual elimination of any semblance of inflight service), so they just cherry pick the bread and butter routes, and watch the place implode. In business, unfortunately, there are rarely back doors. You have to go out the way you came in...and that's tough when somebody blocks the door. This is less about Philly, and more about creating larger opportunities for themselves.
Supercruiser,
You posted very interesting info: "NON LABOR casm is now just north of 7.5, in spite of just coming out of Ch 11. Are you ever going to address this, or are you just hoping that the employees eventually work for free, to get down to a cost where you think you can compete?"
Last I checked WN had labor cost of 2.9 CASM. The last number I saw for US total CASM was 9.5. If your info and my info are correct then US already has a .9 CASM advantage vs. WN. Makes the posts noting US management wants to ride US employees.
Disclaimer: 1st time poster in USA forum. Also, WN employee with best of neighbors both US FA's and 12 other good friends employed by US. In all, in the weird category of hoping best for both companies. 😛h34r:
You posted very interesting info: "NON LABOR casm is now just north of 7.5, in spite of just coming out of Ch 11. Are you ever going to address this, or are you just hoping that the employees eventually work for free, to get down to a cost where you think you can compete?"
Last I checked WN had labor cost of 2.9 CASM. The last number I saw for US total CASM was 9.5. If your info and my info are correct then US already has a .9 CASM advantage vs. WN. Makes the posts noting US management wants to ride US employees.
Disclaimer: 1st time poster in USA forum. Also, WN employee with best of neighbors both US FA's and 12 other good friends employed by US. In all, in the weird category of hoping best for both companies. 😛h34r:
firstamendment
Veteran
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2003
- Messages
- 1,348
- Reaction score
- 0
Are you proud of this?deelmakur said:
It's a factual commentary, not a gloat. I have flown some 2 million actual miles on US. I like the airline. It has been good to me. Its system accomodates most of the places I travel. It troubles me to see how these guys miss opportunities to salvage the place. Everybody wants to debate ticket prices. Kelleher is no dummy. Philly could not possibly have been at the top of his expansion list. Because of operational decisions that have been made, USAirways has provided him with an opportunity. To think that he would accelerate entry into just the kind of market they normally avoid (atc, overscheduling, etc.) to shag a few fares, is naive. This guy is out to open up the whole east coast.
Hello! do you really believe that flying overseas is cheap the costs alone to operate in a foreign European country will not make it finanically feasiable to really compete not only with the major the US carriers but the foreign airlines like Virgin, Brithish Airways, Air france, Luthanasa and the others that have their governments backing their operations.7.5victim said:
PITbull
Veteran
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2002
- Messages
- 7,784
- Reaction score
- 456
Hawk,Hawk said:
You are one funny guy. ..
I will induldge you.
"Labor groups must allow the company to reduce costs"? Did that.
"Our work rules are antiquated"? What time warp are you in, sir? U took all our valued work rules in the winter concession. Now LUV employees make more wages and have better benefits than we do? For f/as, there average duty day is 10.5 hours and U's is 13.
"joining forces to battle the competition"? Aren't you a little late with that epiphany?
"The majority of employees are willing to work with this management team"? Only the majority of management is willing to work with this management team.
"You challenge the the naysayers to work with this company"? I challenge this management to operate this airline and utilize the billions in cost savings already given to this team by labor, vendors, lessors, government and show a profit as many airlines have done without going into BK.
"Each employee should decide if they are willing to give us the needed tools to restructure the company in a competitive manner", and reducing costs will be required in all areas of the company"? You mean all but management. We decided to give you the tools in two concessions within 1 year, trouble is you squandered them and also conveniently forgot.
"The CASMs data paints a clear picture that every employee should understand that we must take the appropriate action, and it is time for every employee to make a committment that they are willing to work with this mangagment team"? Friend you are living "Ground hog day" over and over and over again. Labor had made that committment and stepped up to the plate. Now it is time for management to take appropriate action with the tools given and commit to operating this airline. Period. We did our part; now you do yours! Or get the hell out of dodge.
Your decision as management to stay or leave will control the future of this company and whether it will prevail or not!
See you in the trenches.
supercruiser
Advanced
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2002
- Messages
- 213
- Reaction score
- 11
Well you didn't have it quite right, through no fault of your own. US Airways is now reporting its casm not including fuel and special items, unlike everyone else, to make it look better at a quick glance. The real casm including fuel (not certain if including special items) is just under 11. I have read that USA's labor casm as a percentage of total is about 31% compared to SWA's 34%.bwipilot said:
supercruiser
