Looks like pilot error?

[luvthe9]

why doesen't wn use auto brakes? from what i understand , every other airline does. sounds pretty dangerous to me not to use auto brakes.

MAINTANCE COST!!!!!!!

 

[Rhino]

Autobrakes aren't a panacea.

WN has used the RTO feature for some time and is ready to implement procedures for their utilization on landing soon.

One report stated that 1248 did use autobrakes set on Max.

 

[corl737]

MAINTANCE COST!!!!!!!

While maintenance costs were a contributing reason, it was the turnaround time that was most important!

I'm sure you know that brakes can only absorb a certain amount of energy (heat) before they're rendered ineffective. If you can control the amount of heat the brakes endure on the landing, more will be available for an abort on the next takeoff. Use too much braking on landing and you'll wait at least a half hour at the gate while the metal cools. That might work fine at AA or UA but at SWA, where the turns were scheduled for 10, 15, or 20 minutes and you're eating your own timetable. (The underlying mantra, of course, was always "if you need 'em to stop, use 'em!")

With the proliferation of carry on baggage and slow-boarding passengers the turn times have lengthened such that excessive brake heating isn't the issue it once was. Enabling the autobrake system (still at the Captain's discretion in most cases) gives those who see it as the holy grail of safety a warm, fuzzy, comfy blanket to hold on to.

Me? I'll definitely use it when it's mandated, and may or may not when it isn't. As with everything in the immensely dynamic environment of aviation operations, it will be situation dependent.

 

[Busdrvr]

While maintenance costs were a contributing reason, it was the turnaround time that was most important!

I'm sure you know that brakes can only absorb a certain amount of energy (heat) before they're rendered ineffective. If you can control the amount of heat the brakes endure on the landing, more will be available for an abort on the next takeoff. Use too much braking on landing and you'll wait at least a half hour at the gate while the metal cools. That might work fine at AA or UA but at SWA, where the turns were scheduled for 10, 15, or 20 minutes and you're eating your own timetable. (The underlying mantra, of course, was always "if you need 'em to stop, use 'em!")

With the proliferation of carry on baggage and slow-boarding passengers the turn times have lengthened such that excessive brake heating isn't the issue it once was. Enabling the autobrake system (still at the Captain's discretion in most cases) gives those who see it as the holy grail of safety a warm, fuzzy, comfy blanket to hold on to.

Me? I'll definitely use it when it's mandated, and may or may not when it isn't. As with everything in the immensely dynamic environment of aviation operations, it will be situation dependent.

I'm flabergasted with the way this thing is developing.
I don't know what bothers me more, that SWA didn't approve the use of autobrakes (now that it's to "stay on time" vs "save money" I guess it's ok..... :blink: , then again, aren't they the same?) or that a Capt would choose to use them AGAINST the airlines SOP's. And all the while the FO just sat there. Or more likely, the FO probably set the autobrakes FOR the Capt, AGAINST SOP. WADR, flame all you want about other airlines being BK and how you are making money, but this is honestly troubling. I just can't comprehend that the culture at SWA has degraded to the point that, if Rhino is correct, these guys willingly and deliberately broke the rules. I'm wondering, do you frequently use other systems that are plakarded inop to save on MX (or "save time") knowing those systems are not maintained properly? Incredible.

 

[star power]

I'm flabergasted with the way this thing is developing.
I don't know what bothers me more, that SWA didn't approve the use of autobrakes (now that it's to "stay on time" vs "save money" I guess it's ok..... :blink: , then again, aren't they the same?) or that a Capt would choose to use them AGAINST the airlines SOP's. And all the while the FO just sat there. Or more likely, the FO probably set the autobrakes FOR the Capt, AGAINST SOP. WADR, flame all you want about other airlines being BK and how you are making money, but this is honestly troubling. I just can't comprehend that the culture at SWA has degraded to the point that, if Rhino is correct, these guys willingly and deliberately broke the rules. I'm wondering, do you frequently use other systems that are plakarded inop to save on MX (or "save time") knowing those systems are not maintained properly? Incredible.

AA has autobrakes on most of their md-80, and has put the a/c off the side of the runway using autobrakes in MAX, It definitly the Captain's decretion to use the autobrake system, sometime it can give you more problems than you want. it is the selected setting and pavement condition that make the system work for the flt crew advanage, and that go with experience with the system. RTO is another matter.

 

[star power]

While maintenance costs were a contributing reason, it was the turnaround time that was most important!

I'm sure you know that brakes can only absorb a certain amount of energy (heat) before they're rendered ineffective. If you can control the amount of heat the brakes endure on the landing, more will be available for an abort on the next takeoff. Use too much braking on landing and you'll wait at least a half hour at the gate while the metal cools. That might work fine at AA or UA but at SWA, where the turns were scheduled for 10, 15, or 20 minutes and you're eating your own timetable. (The underlying mantra, of course, was always "if you need 'em to stop, use 'em!")

With the proliferation of carry on baggage and slow-boarding passengers the turn times have lengthened such that excessive brake heating isn't the issue it once was. Enabling the autobrake system (still at the Captain's discretion in most cases) gives those who see it as the holy grail of safety a warm, fuzzy, comfy blanket to hold on to.

Me? I'll definitely use it when it's mandated, and may or may not when it isn't. As with everything in the immensely dynamic environment of aviation operations, it will be situation dependent.

when brakes absorb a certian amount of energy (heat). like a 229,000 lbs empty weight a/c after a long TD and a turn off at the next highspeed TWY on dry pavement , TD to turnoff was about 3500-4000 ft, taxi to the gate and all the main tires thermal plug have let go after park, and the brakes are glowing, that HOT. that brake module will deleiver the pressure to the brake what the flt crew commands, the effectiveness can be thrown out.

 

[CaptBud330]

Does Southwest have brake temperature guages? If not, how do you know if you need a brake cool down even if you use manual brakes. I have seen Southwest taxi at V1 in LAX to the gate. I know those brakes had to be hot. I don't remember if the 737 had brake cooling charts in the manual. Any LUV pilot want to respond?

 

[nbmcg01]

Does Southwest have brake temperature guages? If not, how do you know if you need a brake cool down even if you use manual brakes. I have seen Southwest taxi at V1 in LAX to the gate. I know those brakes had to be hot. I don't remember if the 737 had brake cooling charts in the manual. Any LUV pilot want to respond?

You ALL know that the first released cause is always "pilot error". In every accident there is a statement that tries to blame the pilots. 1. They are the easiest targets 2. Takes the "heat" off of the real investigation. 3. The lawyers love it 4..Just be glad they didn't try to pass it off as a mechanical center fuel tank explosion.
Time to stop pointing the finger until some backed up evidence is released. Second guessing decisions and training policies is easy. Getting them to change, now that is another story.

 

[KCFlyer]

I have seen Southwest taxi at V1 in LAX to the gate.

Really? Here in the heartland, I often see SWA jets taxi at a brisk clip, but I had no idea that one of those beasts reached V1 at 30 knots.

 

[A320 Driver]

When I checked out on the A320, one of the nice gizmos was brake temp indicators for each main tire. What amazed me was the amount of heat I could build up taxiing the airplane. If I taxi fast and end up "riding" the brakes, I can build up a lot of heat in a short amount of time. Another problem was a tendency to use one side more than the other. Our brake fans make it a non-issue. I don't know if SW has temp indicators or not but I do know that the more you hurry, the more heat you build up.

A320 Driver

 

[corl737]

You ALL know that the first released cause is always "pilot error". In every accident there is a statement that tries to blame the pilots. 1. They are the easiest targets 2. Takes the "heat" off of the real investigation. 3. The lawyers love it 4..Just be glad they didn't try to pass it off as a mechanical center fuel tank explosion.
Time to stop pointing the finger until some backed up evidence is released. Second guessing decisions and training policies is easy. Getting them to change, now that is another story.

I'm done trying to explain to all the "second guessers" the way SWA has successfully accomplished it's goals for 35 years. Just because their procedures are different doesn't make them right or wrong, just different. Circumstances create situations where bad things can happen to even the best of folks -- and that includes everyone in this twisted industry.

My best of luck to one and all.

OUT.

(New Year's resolution -- reduce the amount of time wasted on online forums and spend it more productively.)

 

[AAviator]

AA has autobrakes on most of their md-80, and has put the a/c off the side of the runway using autobrakes in MAX

Really? When and where? I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I can't recall that one.

 

[Flufdriver]

Really? Here in the heartland, I often see SWA jets taxi at a brisk clip, but I had no idea that one of those beasts reached V1 at 30 knots.

Speaking of the Heartland...I not long ago was taxiing out for to takeoff at KMCI on the inner taxiway for I believe 19R..There was a "LUV" machine joining the same taxiway WELL behind me. Before we got midway to the departure end of the runway (19R)..SWA requested to sidestep to the outer to pass me up..I obviously was taxiing way to slow for there operation..GO GO GO GO. Sounds like your admitting to standard taxi speed of alteast 30 knots...would love to see if that speed is in your comany FOM. I do realize taxiing out for takeoff lets say 10-12 knots like the "rest" of us do, versus your standard will add probably 15 extra seconds before your airborne and that would be devistating to SWA. Slow done man...lifes to short to "keep pushing" the enveplope. I see it in BWI all the time....

 

[star power]

Really? When and where? I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I can't recall that one.

I was on a DL flight from cvg-mci Dec 2004, and we had to make a go-round to 19R, because of the AA md-80 off 19L. that aviation dept does a bangup job, scrap the snow and leave the ice. The city may not fund the airport for these conditions.

 

[KCFlyer]

Speaking of the Heartland...I not long ago was taxiing out for to takeoff at KMCI on the inner taxiway for I believe 19R..There was a "LUV" machine joining the same taxiway WELL behind me. Before we got midway to the departure end of the runway (19R)..SWA requested to sidestep to the outer to pass me up..I obviously was taxiing way to slow for there operation..GO GO GO GO. Sounds like your admitting to standard taxi speed of alteast 30 knots...would love to see if that speed is in your comany FOM. I do realize taxiing out for takeoff lets say 10-12 knots like the "rest" of us do, versus your standard will add probably 15 extra seconds before your airborne and that would be devistating to SWA. Slow done man...lifes to short to "keep pushing" the enveplope. I see it in BWI all the time....

Fluffie....sorry, not a pilot and not a Southwest employee. All I know as a passenger is that I appreciate the minimal time spent creeping to the runway, feeling every imperfection in the taxiway, sitting bold upright with my knees pressed against the seatback in front of me. I say...if they wanna taxi at 50, be my guest...If I had know it was you they were passing, I'd have waved from my window seat.