Letter sent to NMB regarding FLeet Service dispute

[Mr Eagle]

Tell the whole truth 700, that $78 multiplier is only for fulltimers. The parttimer multiplier is approx. $38. We have been in the iam pension plan almost 3 years. It isn't retroactive to when the iam was voted in, or when we got the first contract. So don't anyone think that if you come to the iam from HP that you will be getting a pension for all the years you have with HP. It's not going to happen. You'd start from scratch from the moment you find yourself under the iam's thumb. Beware brothers and sisters beware. Another word to the wise, if we don't fight for hire date seniority now, you can be assured that the iam is going to screw you out of what seniority you do have. Take it from someone who knows first hand about how the iam screwed us out of our seniority.

GOOD post, OK Dell & Mr 7 Answer these ?'s. MWW

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tell the whole truth 700, that $78 multiplier is only for fulltimers. The parttimer multiplier is approx. $38. We have been in the iam pension plan almost 3 years. It isn't retroactive to when the iam was voted in, or when we got the first contract. So don't anyone think that if you come to the iam from HP that you will be getting a pension for all the years you have with HP. It's not going to happen. You'd start from scratch from the moment you find yourself under the iam's thumb. Beware brothers and sisters beware. Another word to the wise, if we don't fight for hire date seniority now, you can be assured that the iam is going to screw you out of what seniority you do have. Take it from someone who knows first hand about how the iam screwed us out of our seniority.

The IAM pension of $78 multiplier is no guarantee and based on many assumptions. You can do the math and actually get much smaller amounts.
It's in the language. Even your company put a 'qualifier' in the contract saying something like "We make no guarantee of any benefit you will ever receive from this pension".

At any rate, your company was very excited to get the IAM pension plan in the contract since it was the second biggest concession fleet service had to take [$48.2 million] when compared to the 401k.

The ramp got IAM'd on the pension as the IAM loyalist actually sold this 'deep' concession as an increased benefit. Some IAM loyalist may have done this because they were just plain dumb and ignorant to the facts, or their IAM job was on the line.
At any rate, 700 lets the facts get in his way when he suggest the IAM pension was an increased benefit for the ramp. At that time, I was there and part of the meetings that spelled out the deep concession of having the burden of the IAM pension plan.
What's more concerning is the future with this plan. In short it is a blast from the past and is very jurassiclike and not practical for workers of this century.
1. Workers have next to no portability with it.
2. heavy restrictions unlike the flexible 401k's where workers can make their own decisions for what's best for them and use the money for college, medical, mortgage.
3. payments can be suspended
4. Minimum company contributions are put in it.
5. If the IAM continues its 'heavy' losses in the California/West Coast aerospace industry then the plan will suffer great 'pain' and could very well 'wobble'.

At any rate, the IAM pension is just aweful and another result of IAM paternalism trying to tell you that 'they know what's best for you and your money.

You are better off non-union than being IAM'd.

regards,

 

[HPMKE]

The IAM pension of $78 multiplier is no guarantee and based on many assumptions. You can do the math and actually get much smaller amounts.
It's in the language. Even your company put a 'qualifier' in the contract saying something like "We make no guarantee of any benefit you will ever receive from this pension".






Lets see if I understand this correctly and please correct me if I am wrong.

The $78(FT) comes from the money the company used to match in the 401K, correct?

Let's say the company decides to eliminate the MATCH for all employees regardless if union or non-union does mean the $78 goes away then??

If so THAT SUCKS :down: :down:

 

[700UW]

The IAM losing members has nothing to do with the pension plan.

The pension plan is a total seperate entity and not every company the IAM represents participates.

The plan has over $7 billion in assets and has actually increased payment last year as the plan was way over funded.

Guess you neglected to tell the board that now, didn't you?

No one in the plan has been paid less then their multiplier.

Any company that suspends payments must make them up, ie US Airways has paid the plan for all the arrears it owed.

The 401k match and the IAMNPF are not connected and have nothing to do with each other. The IAMNPF is part of the IAM/US Fleet CBA and language must be honored. It has been tested all ready and the IAM has prevailed.

 

[stormchaser]

Hey Nelson, I am not happy with the IAM but if you think you would be treated any better with no union than I want some of what you are smoking. You are a real piece of work. Do everyone a favor and shut your piehole!

 

[Tim Nelson]

Hey Nelson, I am not happy with the IAM but if you think you would be treated any better with no union than I want some of what you are smoking. You are a real piece of work. Do everyone a favor and shut your piehole!

You misinterpreted my point in context. Key word 'iam'.

The first question isn't 'would you get treated better' but rather, 'would you get treated any worse?" Certainly it is not worth paying $500 a year just to say you are an IAM member. BTW, I think the majority of workers would agree with my point. If there was an election today and the IAM was the only union on the ballot then I think it is rather fair to say that the IAM would receive quite a low number of votes. They know that because they see the scoreboard also, that is why they are trying to do their best imitation of 'smeagle' and trying to convince the TWU to go away and never come back.

At any rate, you present typical union rhetoric without any facts yet personal attacks. If you want to present facts, other than opinon then let's further this discussion, otherwise, ok I'm a work of art, hope it makes you feel better now.

I'm not the enemy, just pointing to the scoreboard.

regards,

 

[stormchaser]

Lets see.............I remember when the last union representing the ramp was decertified after the Piedmont merger the company could not wait ome day. They started hacking pay and benefits on day one. Even after the promise by the company that there would be no loss of pay and benefits. TRUST ME I think they said. Getting back to the subject.....It is pretty hard to make ends meet on our wages yet alone participate in a 401k. The Pension Fund is funded soley by the company. Here are some links for you to check out ...........
https://www.iamnpf.org/npf/pages/main_page/index.jhtml
http://www.iamawlodge1426.org/pension.htm

Reeegggaaarrrds!

 

[robbedagain]

IF you are a furloughlee from mainline and you are with the contract company such as Piedmont, and you retire from mainline after the severance etc etc, does the reitree still qualify for the IAM penison if that dude was an IAM member?

 

[Tim Nelson]

Lets see.............I remember when the last union representing the ramp was decertified after the Piedmont merger the company could not wait ome day. They started hacking pay and benefits on day one. Even after the promise by the company that there would be no loss of pay and benefits. TRUST ME I think they said. Getting back to the subject.....It is pretty hard to make ends meet on our wages yet alone participate in a 401k. The Pension Fund is funded soley by the company. Here are some links for you to check out ...........
https://www.iamnpf.org/npf/pages/main_page/index.jhtml
http://www.iamawlodge1426.org/pension.htm

Reeegggaaarrrds!

Your comments are nonsensical in supporting your point. So exactly how much better off are you now than you were at the point you mentioned?
I agree with you that it is pretty hard to make ends meet at your currently small wages. As bad as you say the company treated you, you still made $17.88 back in 1993....Your dues gets you either $17 or $15 bucks and change now, 14 years later.

More vacation, even paid sick days. Shift differ. And the 401k had not only a match but the company contributed up to 10%. Your measley company contributions now are a joke. And the IAM pension was a 48.2 million concession to what you had back in 1992. Any plan, 401k, IAM pension, etc., is only as good as what is going in. 10% contributions on all hours worked is much greater than 3-6% contributions on 40 hours.
Seniority meant something to. Back then, you didn't go back to square one if you got laid off. Now the IAm agreed with the company that if you get laid off then you lose all seniority if not recalled within like 90 days.

But more importantly than all this is that the company treated you so bad that they had almost twice the amount of people working and up to 80 stations. The IAM has managed to agree to contract out thousands of jobs and now only has about 11 stations.
Your dues money you spent over the past 6 years, $3,000 has netted you a much lessor job.

regards,

 

[700UW]

I guess the state of the industry, two bankruptcies, 9/11 and every other legacy in the same boat, means nothing to you?

And I guess you also forgot dues are tax deductable.

And your fleet service brothers and sisters voted for everything they work under.

 

[stormchaser]

Nelson ..... apparently you were not here when the union(Teamsters) were decertified. We became non-union. The company cut our wages, sick time, vacation, froze our pension etc. The employees were so pissed off that one year later we filed for Union representation. We had an election and the IAM was voted in. I can say that I did not vote for them but I do know that if we had not got union representation back we would be making less than we are no after concessions. If you think any different you are fooling yourself. By the way all unions on the proerty took big hits because nobody (the membership) had the balls to say no. Just for the record I voted no for every concession. You will not accept any facts that are provided you because you have a personal agenda. Couldn't get your own union started Huh? Is the TWU offering you a position? If I,m not mistaken wasn't the TWU the first in the industry to take concessions? Remember it takes 2 to tango and these talks that are going on between the IAM and the TWU invole both unions. You should be pissed at the TWU for even talking to the IAM. I guarantee you there will be a deal that the TWU will take. It's all about money. No union is out for the workers rights but all are out for yor money!!!

REGARDSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!
XOXOXO

 

[Tim Nelson]

Nelson ..... apparently you were not here when the union(Teamsters) were decertified. We became non-union. The company cut our wages, sick time, vacation, froze our pension etc. The employees were so pissed off that one year later we filed for Union representation. We had an election and the IAM was voted in. I can say that I did not vote for them but I do know that if we had not got union representation back we would be making less than we are no after concessions. If you think any different you are fooling yourself. By the way all unions on the proerty took big hits because nobody (the membership) had the balls to say no. Just for the record I voted no for every concession. You will not accept any facts that are provided you because you have a personal agenda. Couldn't get your own union started Huh? Is the TWU offering you a position? If I,m not mistaken wasn't the TWU the first in the industry to take concessions? Remember it takes 2 to tango and these talks that are going on between the IAM and the TWU invole both unions. You should be pissed at the TWU for even talking to the IAM. I guarantee you there will be a deal that the TWU will take. It's all about money. No union is out for the workers rights but all are out for yor money!!!

REGARDSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!
XOXOXO

Stormchaser. Again, you provide no evidence to support your mindboggling position. What your company did was cut benefits in 1992, however, now with union, your benefits got cut almost doubly on top of that. Some benefits, you flat out lost altogether with no snapbacks.

If you take the position of having a 'snapshot' of this industry and advocate some type of 'apologetic' for the IAM then stick with the facts. Consider the following:

Let's stick with legacy carriers as you wish. Now let's consider non-union legacy carriers together with IAM dues paying members for USair fleet.
Specifically, the comparison is between Continental & Delta non-union workers, with IAM misrepresented fleet. Not surprisingly, both Delta and Continental make significantly higher wages. Both Delta and Continental cut their non-union workers pay and benefits. Continental workers still make $19.40 something an hour, and Delta workers make more pay also while they also enjoy 10 holidays, more vacation, double time, shift differ, and many other benefits.

Unfortunately, US AIRWAYS fleet got IAM'd and are at the bottom of the freakn barrel. Your IAM even set the pace for contracted out work. Non-Union Continental, even though they make tons more money, still do US AIRWAYS work at several stations. The IAM didn't protect one job, not one.
But this isn't new stuff dude. Even the IAM said, "We had a knife to our back and a gun to our head". In effect they just threw their hands up and said "I give up". No snapback,no nothing but found a way to preserve and increase dues amount$.

You may not agree with me but I don't think there is a shadow of a doubt that if the IAM was the only union on the ballot that they would get only a small % of votes, because the scoreboard is showing a blowout and nobody wants to be on the losing team.

As for the TWU, you'll have to ask them their agenda. Why would they give me anything, I already said publically that I would not be voting for the IAM or TWU???? There is some merit to what you said in that the TWU will probably have a bunch of money stuffed into their pockets and walk away. I can't argue against that with any credance.

As for workers not standing up, IMO, I can only say that I was part of the Local CHairman committeeships back then and when I heard the IAM talk in meetings, they gave us no hint that they ever intended to do anything if the workers voted out a contract. In fact, most agreed that the IAM sounded like a company mouthpiece. Workers knew their representation couldn't be counted on to support them. Still workers were partially to blame so I give you points for that.

regards,

I guess the state of the industry, two bankruptcies, 9/11 and every other legacy in the same boat, means nothing to you?

And I guess you also forgot dues are tax deductable.

And your fleet service brothers and sisters voted for everything they work under.

700, when your position gets as desperate as suggesting that workers keep the IAM because the dues are 'tax deductable' then I think it is time for you to punt. And FWIW: dues aren't taxable for everyone.

Also, your other points I answered in my 'stormchaser' response. Yes, fleet service voted for the contract but it doesn't necessarily follow that they should vote for the IAM.

regards,

 

[700UW]

Glad to see you ignored what happened at UA, AA, NW, CO, they all took concessions, AA and the TWU did it without bankruptcy, CO the IBT did it without bankruptcy.

And dont put words into my posts.

Guess you did not know DL just outsourced dozens of stations on the ramp, guess you have not heard of Delta Ground Services?

And guess you did not realize CO and DL cut their rampers pay and benefits and the employees had no recourse what so ever.

How many stations does CO have rampers at?

 

[Tim Nelson]

Glad to see you ignored what happened at UA, AA, NW, CO, they all took concessions, AA and the TWU did it without bankruptcy, CO the IBT did it without bankruptcy.

And dont put words into my posts.

Guess you did not know DL just outsourced dozens of stations on the ramp, guess you have not heard of Delta Ground Services?

And guess you did not realize CO and DL cut their rampers pay and benefits and the employees had no recourse what so ever.

How many stations does CO have rampers at?

700, true Delta did contract out work but it only followed the IAM's lead since it is a fact that the IAM's US AIRWAYS fleet contract is the newly crowned leader in contracting out work. Don't ask me, just ask all the former employees on this board who are witnesses. THis can't be denied.

700, you are right again, DL and Co cut the workers pay but I would much rather have no say so whatsoever and get a pay cut down to $19.40 than to have a sayso in whether I vote for $15 or $17 or less. Tell me, do you see the futility of your argument? Is one better off being non-union and being forced to take $19.40 or is a worker better off shouting 'union privilege' and having the opportunity to vote for $15? Am I missing something? Still looking for where the IAM made a difference other than a negative one.

And FWIW: don't tell me what the non-union fleet service legacy have done but show me where the IAM has made a difference with fleet service. To pay $500 a year for something that does less than mirrors non-union workers is nonsensical and unthinkable. The only way you will convince anyone otherwise is if you show the IAM difference. Unfortunately, fleet service has been IAM'd and your talk on the field doesn't match up to my pointing to the scoreboard.

Remember, the IAM's loyalist position was clear twice: "THere will be no new concessions" And the ultimate white flag 'give up' , "We have a knife to our back and a gun to our head" Proudly placed in a letter by IAM Boss Canale.

You think that is leadership worth paying for, I don't and if there is an election then it is quite clearly 'Tuffa Lucka' for the IAM. I will give the IAM points for being good BS'ers. Who knows, maybe their BS will convince even the TWU. It will be like stealing their socks while leaving the shoes still on the TWU. What a mind job that will be.

regards,

 

[700UW]

Once again the TWU contact at AA allowed way more outsourcing for years before the IAM had it forced upon them in Chapter 11.

Apparently you did not realize the Court abrogated the CBA.

And what is to stop DL and CO from changing wages and benefits at there whim?