Let's Take A Look At The Military Records

[delldude]

KC- this group is from the day when it was acceptable to get a student deferment and i bet if you check thats where they were , so its ludicrous to berate them for what was then an acceptable practice.
of course this will never happen in these days of media mis-reporting and total bias...

 

[KCFlyer]

KC- this group is from the day when it was acceptable to get a student deferment and i bet if you check thats where they were , so its ludicrous to berate them for what was then an acceptable practice.
of course this will never happen in these days of media mis-reporting and total bias...

[post="194518"][/post]​

I am not berating them for what they did in 1969. I am sure that they all had their reasons for seeking a student deferment...most likely, the number one reason wasn't to further their education, but to avoid being shot at. And now that they are in a position of power, and are quite the hawks on the war effort, I find it appalling that they gladly send men and women off to war, taking comfort that each and every one "volunteered" to go. Actually....many of them "volunteered" so that they could get that education that kept these hawklets out of the military in the first place.

 

[USAir757]

They don't, nor did I say they did. A book written in 1972 does not hold much interest for me. The fact that John Kerry and many other veterans held certain opinions regarding their service in the war, as is their right, and that for many those opinions have changed with time, is just not that important.

You had quoted my words regarding the book, and then brought up how the Senator has been forthcoming with his records, and then provided the links. I thought maybe one of them was going to address what I had brought up. Neither here nor there, a book written in 1972 should hold interest for you... because those opinions he held can very well still be valid today. It is probably a look inside the man without the politics of this election surrounding him... which, I believe, is exactly why they are hiding this book for dear life.

"your partisan friends"? How soon we forget...

This was not meant towards you... he was trying to build rapport and stating his opinion as if it were fact, and as if nobody who would read it would disagree.

I am voting for Kerry and am glad I am in a state that could make a difference.
Let's hope Kerry wins. Bush had a chance to make the world better and he failed miserably. He might go down in history as the worst ever. Now that is something he can be proud of. Judging how he looks at himself.

Dear Fred and Dell Dude, let's hope John Kerry's Boeing 757 finds its way into the side of a mountain.... John Kerry has only had 20 years to make this world better, and he's failed miserably. He might go down as the worst Senator ever (next to Ted Kennedy). Now THAT is something he can be proud of! Love, USAir757

afterall, it's only my opinion, right?

I posted this for all of you because it perains to the thread. You can always ignore me and you will be able to live in your little fanasy land.

I don't want to ignore you. I'm not suggesting that your opinion doesn't matter. But I'm not in any more of a fantasy land than you are yourself, my friend.

I figured about 25% vote with their wallet. The righteous are included. God has been good to them.

Sorry, I guess because I actually have money in my wallet I should be ashamed of myself. Dammit, why did I put myself through college and make wise financial decisions. I should have never worked so hard, I could have just sat on my ass and voted for Kerry. Woulda coulda shoulda.

Bush is a morally bankrupt individual who achieved great status through his dad and powerful friends of his dad. Looking at his failures leads me to believe that some oilmen might have had a bet going that one of them could make DUBYA president of the USA.

Hope you've prepared yourself for the possibility of 4 more years, because a lot of people disagree with you.

But I don't like at all that the presidents advisors like Rove, who were not elected to any office, and who have no service record, have a lot of influence on the dictator of this country.

Sort of like Hillary Clinton... wasn't she the president "behind the scenes" making all the decisions? If she wasn't in the beginning, then certainly after Monica she was! And George Stephanopolos... and just about every advisor to a president. How come all of a sudden it's an issue? Presidents have always had non-elected advisors.

Many of you here, I'll admit, are smarter than me when it comes to economics, foreign policy, and a plethora of other issues. And, again, I am guilty of typing out of frustration and emotion just like others. When I see posters make attacks on Kerry, I usually just skim right over them. I'm not all that interested. But when someone personally attacks my president, I feel the need to respond. Atabuy, I don't think the forum benefited from your message to NWA. That's why I thought it should be a PM. But, as it turns out, as usual in this forum, I'm in the minority. So carry on....

 

[FredF]

I personally find this thread to be a riot. It is full of the same inacuracies as all the other threads here. The same people keep saying the same things.

The same lie about how Kerry has released all his records, he hasn't and how Bush hasn't, yet he has.

The parts about Kerry's medals are the best. There never was a silver star with combat v awarded in the history of the Navy yet our illustrious senator seems to have one.

Ok, so you don't care about some war that happened 30 years ago. Fine with me. What about the treason that Kerry committed after that. Yes treason. As a US Military Officer, no he had not been discharged, he met with Enemy leaders in Paris, to discuss the war. That act, now appears it happened twice, is explicitly prohibited by the UCMJ.

But you are right. None of this matters.

Then riddle me this since you seem the expert on the Liberal Senator from Mass.

If he is such a great leader, if he is going to do all these wonderful things should he be electe, why, in the 20 years in the senate has he not done ANY OF THESE THINGS?

 

[atabuy]

Then riddle me this since you seem the expert on the Liberal Senator from Mass.

If he is such a great leader, if he is going to do all these wonderful things should he be electe, why, in the 20 years in the senate has he not done ANY OF THESE THINGS?

[post="194565"][/post]​

Fred,
I know this is not addressed to me but I am happy to extend my opinion. go figure.
I have not sung the praises of Kerry as much as I have thought Bush has made a total mess of his tour as president.
This to me is about the lessor of two evils.
I have seen what Bush has done and want to see what someone else can.
As Trump would say on the 2 of Nov.:You're fired!
Vote your special interests and I will vote to get them taken away. This is pretty much what it is all about.

 

[TheLazarusman]

The parts about Kerry's medals are the best. There never was a silver star with combat v awarded in the history of the Navy yet our illustrious senator seems to have one.

[post="194565"][/post]​

What was that? In the history of the Navy? But what about the irrefutable Navy records? Thanks, Fred; once again, my point has been made.

 

[atabuy]

You had quoted my words regarding the book, and then brought up how the Senator has been forthcoming with his records, and then provided the links. I thought maybe one of them was going to address what I had brought up. Neither here nor there, a book written in 1972 should hold interest for you... because those opinions he held can very well still be valid today. It is probably a look inside the man without the politics of this election surrounding him... which, I believe, is exactly why they are hiding this book for dear life.

Isn't this why so many say he flip flops.
He might have had that opinion then but can change his mind with new information.

This was not meant towards you... he was trying to build rapport and stating his opinion as if it were fact, and as if nobody who would read it would disagree.

I welcome disagreements and hope I can learn from them. I think NWA is very thoughtful and concise with his posts, and I do agree with him on many issues.
I did not know it was not allowed to every once in awhile post to someone unless you disagreed with them.
If you notice the first sentenced did disagree with his post.

Dear Fred and Dell Dude, let's hope John Kerry's Boeing 757 finds its way into the side of a mountain.... John Kerry has only had 20 years to make this world better, and he's failed miserably. He might go down as the worst Senator ever (next to Ted Kennedy). Now THAT is something he can be proud of! Love, USAir757

I am glad you found some friends.

I don't want to ignore you. I'm not suggesting that your opinion doesn't matter. But I'm not in any more of a fantasy land than you are yourself, my friend.

Doesn't that; it's a small world song drive you crazy? You know, I think Goofy is a republican, but I am not sure.

Sorry, I guess because I actually have money in my wallet I should be ashamed of myself. Dammit, why did I put myself through college and make wise financial decisions. I should have never worked so hard, I could have just sat on my ass and voted for Kerry. Woulda coulda shoulda.

There are two things that are for sure in this world.
Death and Taxes. I hope you live a long life and pay your fair share of taxes.
We sure as heck need them now that Bush broke the bank.
Will you be affected if they roll back the tax for anyone making over 200,000?
Just curious.

Hope you've prepared yourself for the possibility of 4 more years, because a lot of people disagree with you.

I will never be prepared for that, but this is what a free system is all about.

Many of you here, I'll admit, are smarter than me when it comes to economics, foreign policy, and a plethora of other issues. And, again, I am guilty of typing out of frustration and emotion just like others. When I see posters make attacks on Kerry, I usually just skim right over them. I'm not all that interested. But when someone personally attacks my president, I feel the need to respond. Atabuy, I don't think the forum benefited from your message to NWA. That's why I thought it should be a PM. But, as it turns out, as usual in this forum, I'm in the minority. So carry on....

[post="194563"][/post]​

Thanks I will. I hope that minority thing keeps going for the voter turnout too.

 

[atabuy]

I personally find this thread to be a riot. It is full of the same inacuracies as all the other threads here. The same people keep saying the same things.

The same lie about how Kerry has released all his records, he hasn't and how Bush hasn't, yet he has.

The parts about Kerry's medals are the best. There never was a silver star with combat v awarded in the history of the Navy yet our illustrious senator seems to have one.

Ok, so you don't care about some war that happened 30 years ago. Fine with me. What about the treason that Kerry committed after that. Yes treason. As a US Military Officer, no he had not been discharged, he met with Enemy leaders in Paris, to discuss the war. That act, now appears it happened twice, is explicitly prohibited by the UCMJ.

But you are right. None of this matters.

Then riddle me this since you seem the expert on the Liberal Senator from Mass.

If he is such a great leader, if he is going to do all these wonderful things should he be electe, why, in the 20 years in the senate has he not done ANY OF THESE THINGS?

[post="194565"][/post]​

Fred,
I am not sure if this is the medal you refer to. I will give you the site and one of the paragraphs in it. Please let me know.

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.js...mil%2Fmedals%2F
Then go to: # Vietnam Service Medal (1965-1973)
:

There are a total of 17 campaign stars authorized for the Vietnam Service Medal. Personnel are authorized one bronze campaign star for each qualifying campaign with a silver star worn in lieu of five bronze stars.

 

[USAir757]

Isn't this why so many say he flip flops. He might have had that opinion then but can change his mind with new information.

That's just it, I have no idea what the opinion was in the first place. And if the Kerry campaign thought like you do, they probably wouldn't have gathered every copy they could find disallow any further printing of the book. But they did, and where there is smoke there's fire, so I'm wondering what it says. That's all. If I could get my hands on one, I could speak more intelligently about it...

I welcome disagreements and hope I can learn from them. I think NWA is very thoughtful and concise with his posts, and I do agree with him on many issues.

Nice to see we agree on something.

I did not know it was not allowed to every once in awhile post to someone unless you disagreed with them.

In all honesty, did you not expect to draw a negative response from me, or someone that would disagree with you? Would you have said that at a nice dinner with a politically mixed group of people attending?

Anyway, enough of that. I apologize, let's drop it.

Doesn't that; it's a small world song drive you crazy? You know, I think Goofy is a republican, but I am not sure.

Last I heard, Goofy is registered Independant. I wonder if he'll vote Nader.

There are two things that are for sure in this world. Death and Taxes. I hope you live a long life and pay your fair share of taxes.
We sure as heck need them now that Bush broke the bank.
Will you be affected if they roll back the tax for anyone making over 200,000?
Just curious.

I'm certainly going to pay more in my lifetime than most other people out there. And I'm not even going to argue about it as long as it stays where it is. And the answer to your question, while personal and completely irrelevant, is yes. But even if I made much less, like when I started with the airlines, I'd still be making the same argument. My opinion is independant of my personal income, but my vote is not.

 

[atabuy]

I personally find this thread to be a riot. It is full of the same inacuracies as all the other threads here. The same people keep saying the same things.

The same lie about how Kerry has released all his records, he hasn't and how Bush hasn't, yet he has.

The parts about Kerry's medals are the best. There never was a silver star with combat v awarded in the history of the Navy yet our illustrious senator seems to have one.

[post="194565"][/post]​

Fred,
Looking at the v after combat might mean five bronze medals.

Tell me how you got your information about this.
Or as some say, was it just an opinion that looked like a fact?

 

[atabuy]

That's just it, I have no idea what the opinion was in the first place. And if the Kerry campaign thought like you do, they probably wouldn't have gathered every copy they could find disallow any further printing of the book. But they did, and where there is smoke there's fire, so I'm wondering what it says. That's all. If I could get my hands on one, I could speak more intelligently about it...
Nice to see we agree on something.
In all honesty, did you not expect to draw a negative response from me, or someone that would disagree with you? Would you have said that at a nice dinner with a politically mixed group of people attending?

Anyway, enough of that. I apologize, let's drop it.
Last I heard, Goofy is registered Independant. I wonder if he'll vote Nader.
I'm certainly going to pay more in my lifetime than most other people out there. And I'm not even going to argue about it as long as it stays where it is. And the answer to your question, while personal and completely irrelevant, is yes. But even if I made much less, like when I started with the airlines, I'd still be making the same argument. My opinion is independant of my personal income, but my vote is not.

[post="194582"][/post]​

Thanks for the reply.
Of course I expected a reply from someone who does not agree with me.
The whole purpose of these boards are for expressing viewpoints.
Yes I sometimes lose objectiviity and become a little feticious and ect........fill in the words. I cannot come up with them right now.

 

[TheLazarusman]

Tell me how you got your information about this.
Or as some say, was it just an opinion that looked like a fact?

[post="194584"][/post]​

Try this on for size.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=14743

John Kerry's Mysterious Combat “Vâ€
By Henry Mark Holzer and Erika Holzer
FrontPageMagazine.com | August 20, 2004

As the authors of Fake Warriors: Identifying, Exposing and Punishing Those Who Falsify Their Military Service, we receive scores of emails on our website either asking questions about the Fake Warrior phenomenon (which has reached epidemic proportions), or reporting sightings which sometimes lead to exposure and even fines or jail terms.

One Vietnam vet with nearly forty years of military service who retired as a major, spurred on by the revelations in our book, and, in his words. “having seen hundreds of DD 214s†(a veteran’s Record of Transfer or Separation), recently decided to take a close look at John Kerry’s DD 214, which is posted on his website. What the major called to our attention, which we have since verified, raises some extremely troubling questions about John Kerry’s Silver Star. Keep in mind that the Silver Star is the third-highest medal our Nation can bestow (after only the Medal of Honor and the three service “Crossesâ€).

Kerry's DD 214 lists a Silver Star with a combat “V†(for valor). As the major correctly observes, the “V†is never awarded with the Silver Star. But the actual wording on Kerry’s DD 214 (see www.johnkerry.com) is: “SILVER STAR WITH COMBAT ‘V’.â€



There is an abundance of anecdotal evidence that a combat “V†(called a “Combat Distinguishing Deviceâ€) is simply not awarded with a Silver Star. For example, a former Vietnam War POW told us that he has “three SSs, and there was no V for any of them.†Countless other Silver Star recipients all say the same thing. Why? Because, among other reasons, it would be redundant to award a Silver Star for “gallantry†(the statutory term) and then embellish it with a “V†for valor.



Most conclusive, however, is that the law is very clear about the award of Combat Distinguishing Devices. According to the Navy Awards Manual:

Bronze "V" (Combat Distinguishing Device).

Prior to . . . 1974, the "V" was authorized for wear on the Legion of Merit, Bronze Star Medal, Joint Service Commendation Medal, Navy Commendation Medal and Navy Achievement Medal. Between . . .1974 and . . . 1991, the "V" was authorized for wear on the Distinguished Flying Cross, Bronze Star Medal, Air Medal, Joint Service Commendation Medal and Navy Commendation Medal. [In] . . . 1991, the "V" was authorized for wear on the Legion of Merit, Distinguished Flying Cross, Bronze Star Medal, Air Medal, Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal and Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal. In all cases, the Combat Distinguishing Device may only be worn if specifically authorized in the citation. See also http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Valor_device.

Because the “V†is authorized for only the ten awards cited above, but not for the Silver Star, Kerry’s Silver Star citation (the “explanation†of why the award was made) does not even mention the “V†for valor (see www.johnkerry.com).

The presence of the combat “V†with Kerry’s Silver Star on his DD 214 raises two extremely disquieting questions. How did the unauthorized “V†get there, and why has Kerry allowed it to remain?

The first question should not be taken lightly because we are talking about possible federal crimes. We are talking about the possibility of a forged official document. We are talking, as well, about Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001, which states: “[W]hoever, in any manner within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the United States, knowingly and willfully . . . makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years or both.â€

Was the combat “V†added by a sloppy clerk or a yeoman’s typo thirty years ago? Was someone pressured or persuaded to add it? If Kerry had nothing to do with the gratuitously added combat “V,†why didn’t he have his DD 214 corrected when he was separated from the Navy?

Which gives rise to the second disturbing question: If Kerry was not a party to the unauthorized “V,†why, for all these years, has he allowed his DD 214 to remain uncorrected and to repose on his website?

In light of the recent Swift Boat revelations and the cloud they have cast over Kerry’s awards, one plausible answer is that this is yet another example of Kerry’s multiple, and increasingly transparent, lies about his alleged heroics in Vietnam.

Let’s hope it won’t take a controversial TV spot to spark a mainstream media investigation of how candidate Kerry received an unearned “V†for valor.

Henry Mark Holzer [www.henrymarkholzer.com; [email protected]], Professor Emeritus at Brooklyn Law School, specializes in federal appeals. Erika Holzer [www.erikaholzer.com] is a lawyer and novelist. They are co-authors of “Aid and Comfortâ€: Jane Fonda in North Vietnam.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope this helps. And I'm sure there is other information out there. I hope I didn't step on your toes, Fred. I just thought I'd jump back in the conversation.

 

[delldude]

why all the hoopla over kerry's military service??
my god man...doesn't his record in senate speak for its self??

 

[NWA/AMT]

Neither here nor there, a book written in 1972 should hold interest for you... because those opinions he held can very well still be valid today.

[post="194563"][/post]​

I read the book in the early '70s, it was given to me by a fellow Marine who was a member of the VVAW. He felt I should read it because he felt it helped expose the lie of Vietnam and how the American fighting man was betrayed by his leaders. He still holds those opinions today, after a 30 year career in the Marines, yet his opinions somehow never prevented him from doing his job for our country.

It is probably a look inside the man without the politics of this election surrounding him... which, I believe, is exactly why they are hiding this book for dear life.

There are eleven copies for sale on e-bay.

This was not meant towards you... he was trying to build rapport and stating his opinion as if it were fact, and as if nobody who would read it would disagree.

Stating opinion as if it were fact and as if nobody who would read it would disagree? Sounds like a normal post for this forum, yet you don't seem to take exception when a Republican poster does it.

Dear Fred and Dell Dude, let's hope John Kerry's Boeing 757 finds its way into the side of a mountain.... John Kerry has only had 20 years to make this world better, and he's failed miserably. He might go down as the worst Senator ever (next to Ted Kennedy). Now THAT is something he can be proud of! Love, USAir757

afterall, it's only my opinion, right?

Exactly, and nothing more.

 

[NWA/AMT]

I personally find this thread to be a riot. It is full of the same inacuracies as all the other threads here. The same people keep saying the same things.

[post="194565"][/post]​

I personally find this thread to be a riot. It is full of the same inacuracies as all the other threads here. The same people keep saying the same things.

The same lie about how Kerry has released all his records, he hasn't and how Bush hasn't, yet he has.

The same lie about how Kerry hasn't released all his records, he has, and the same lie about how Bush has, and he hasn't.

The parts about Kerry's medals are the best. There never was a silver star with combat v awarded in the history of the Navy yet our illustrious senator seems to have one.

The parts about Kerry's medals are the best. Like how he, as a Lieutenant JG, supposedly typed his own DD214 discharge papers, even though that was actually the function of an enlisted clerk, and intentionally inaccurately listed a medal, and how it's all his fault and a fraud on his part even though no evidence exists that he ever wore the medal as described, and considering that the DD214 is for members leaving the service it is unlikely he ever would have.

Ok, so you don't care about some war that happened 30 years ago. Fine with me. What about the treason that Kerry committed after that. Yes treason. As a US Military Officer, no he had not been discharged, he met with Enemy leaders in Paris, to discuss the war. That act, now appears it happened twice, is explicitly prohibited by the UCMJ.

OK, so you don't care about some war that happened 30 years ago. Fine with me. What about the offenses against the American fighting man Bush committed by using family connections to avoid active service and then going AWOL, in violation of the UCMJ?

Then riddle me this since you seem the expert on the Liberal Senator from Mass.

Then riddle me this since you seem the expert on the NeoConservative Governor from Texas, who was born in New Haven, Conn. but pretends to be a Texan.

If he is such a great leader, if he is going to do all these wonderful things should he be electe, why, in the 20 years in the senate has he not done ANY OF THESE THINGS?

If he is such a great leader, if he is going to do all these wonderful things should he be elected, why, in the 4 years that he has been in office - when his party controlled all three branches of government - has he not done ANY OF THESE THINGS?

Fred, for someone who doesn't answer questions, you sure seem to ASK a lot of them.

USAir757, Fred's post is also an example of what it looks like when people 'post opinion as fact and act as if nobody would disagree with it', yet you did not call him on it.