Keep AA planes maintained by AA

[eolesen]

All true on the forklift procedure being more or less an approved procedure. It's also likely that the three engineering mistakes (pylon + hydraulic lines + lack of slat interlocks) that manifested themselves with AA 191 would have done so with another operator.

 

[DNTULSA]

Was AA the only airline using the forklift to remove and install the DC-10 wing engines?

 

[MetalMover]

Was AA the only airline using the forklift to remove and install the DC-10 wing engines?

Forklift use on engine changes were a common procedure on many various aircraft at many various airlines prior to this accident.

 

[Bob Owens]

The AA mechanics did not object to changing the engines with a forklift. The problem was in how the engine change was turned over and that there was no way at that time to measure the stress the pylon was under during the removal and installation. The COBRA system is very similar to the forklift in that a mechanically powered system is used to remove and mount the engine. The difference is that the COBRA has a system that prevents preloading of the pylon. 
 
AA 191 was a tragedy and reading the investigation report will enlighten you that the forklift procedure was used throughout the industry with DAC's knowledge.

Did I say they objected to using a forklift? Still using strawmen, at least you are consistent. They objected to the procedure where they used a forklift to remove the engine and pylon as one unit instead of doing them separately. I've read the report and I knew and spoke to a few guys who were on that engine change, not everything makes it into those reports, yes the forklift malfunction is what cracked the tombstone and they did object to doing it that way, they were instructed to do so by management because it saved time as they wanted the pylons removed as well. Yes other carriers were doing it the same way, I believe they found cracks on other carriers while the fleet was grounded.

FWAAA had to go all the way back to 1979 to find a maintenance caused crash at AA, but leaves out the fact that in the video they cited that the Chinese carrier had on average one crash every four years. How many aircraft were they operating compared to AA over that same time span? This accident happened in this millennia, 191 happened before some of the people posting here were born.

For many years now we have had the NASA program where mechanics can anonymously report problems they see, that evolved into the ASAP program at AA, do they have any such programs at those foreign facilities, how about drug and alcohol testing and 10 year background checks?

 

[Bob Owens]

All true on the forklift procedure being more or less an approved procedure. It's also likely that the three engineering mistakes (pylon + hydraulic lines + lack of slat interlocks) that manifested themselves with AA 191 would have done so with another operator.

You left out one thing, the procedure to reduce airspeed, in the end thats what brought the plane down, you have to remember the engine came off on the runway, the plane left the ground without the engine and with the slats retracted. When he reduced airspeed the wing stalled and the plane flipped over.

 

[Show me the money]

I find it offensive Mr eolesen talks about pencil-whipping. Have you ever had an A&P? If not, stick to what you know it's not maintenance oversight.  The problem we have is that we get BEAN COUNTERS deciding how maintenance should be done from a spread sheet. I will be the first to say maintenance at AA has become the most mismanaged mess around. Supervisors are inept and the union boasts there is nothing you can do that we can't get your job back. Sayings like this is the way we have always done things have got to change. Accountability must return along with a days work for a days pay.

 

[Bob Owens]

Forklift use on engine changes were a common procedure on many various aircraft at many various airlines prior to this accident.

It was because they were removing the engine and pylon as one unit instead of separately.

Bob, when's the last time you were in either Taiwan, Hong Kong, or the mainland?...
 
Reason I ask is that I've spent the better part of the last six months working there with two of the big three Chinese carriers.  
 
There's certainly a higher level of respect shown to superiors in Asian culture, but things have changed quite a bit in the past ten years.  The submissiveness that was legendary from the past with those who grew up under Mao has shifted with those born post-Mao.
 
That includes speaking up.  you'll note that the only guy to speak up in the Asiana cockpit was the junior guy.

Mainland China, August 2012, in and around Shanghai and Beijing. My bother is married to a Chinese woman, he speaks Shanghais and lives in Shanghai.

 

[MetalMover]

All true on the forklift procedure being more or less an approved procedure. It's also likely that the three engineering mistakes (pylon + hydraulic lines + lack of slat interlocks) that manifested themselves with AA 191 would have done so with another operator.

There is never just one single cause for an accident.......There are usually several reasons why a tragedy like this occurs.

 

[Overspeed]

It was because they were removing the engine and pylon as one unit instead of separately.
Mainland China, August 2012, in and around Shanghai and Beijing. My bother is married to a Chinese woman, he speaks Shanghais and lives in Shanghai.

 
Please read the report. It was a multitude of causes but the fracture occurred to the aft fitting because they were using a forklift, there was little precision in operating the forklift, and they had a shift turnover while the crew was in the middle of the hanging the engine and the forklift bled down. Very few accidents are a single point failure. The ECO called out that the engine and pylon could be changed as a unit. 
 
Again, read the accident report.
 
It's okay to not know everything Bob. The NTSB did a detailed investigation and found that the forklift procedure should be abandoned.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Was AA the only airline using the forklift to remove and install the DC-10 wing engines?

 
Continental was also using the forklift procedure.
 
I think United was not.

 

[MetalMover]

 
Please read the report. It was a multitude of causes but the fracture occurred to the aft fitting because they were using a forklift, there was little precision in operating the forklift, and they had a shift turnover while the crew was in the middle of the hanging the engine and the forklift bled down. Very few accidents are a single point failure. The ECO called out that the engine and pylon could be changed as a unit. 
 
Again, read the accident report.
 
It's okay to not know everything Bob. The NTSB did a detailed investigation and found that the forklift procedure should be abandoned.

Been involved on many an engine change throughout the decades, I would have to say the forklift being left in place and allowed to "hang" for too long a period was probably
more of the reason for the accident than the pylon being removed with the engine.
 
But just my $.02

 

[dfw gen]

could not agree kire!

I find it offensive Mr eolesen talks about pencil-whipping. Have you ever had an A&P? If not, stick to what you know it's not maintenance oversight.  The problem we have is that we get BEAN COUNTERS deciding how maintenance should be done from a spread sheet. I will be the first to say maintenance at AA has become the most mismanaged mess around. Supervisors are inept and the union boasts there is nothing you can do that we can't get your job back. Sayings like this is the way we have always done things have got to change. Accountability must return along with a days work for a days pay.

 

[Bob Owens]

For all the hand-wringing over Asian MRO's operating practices, why is it that crash related deaths at record historical lows while the number of airframes being sent to Asian MRO's are at record highs?...
 
The last structural failure I can think of due to maintenance was the Alaska MD80 whose jackscrew let loose.  And that plane wasn't maintained by anyone other than union represented mechanics.

Statements like that are why non A&Ps should never be allowed to take management positions in aircraft maintenance. How long did it take for the faulty repair to kill over 200 people? Nearly two decades. So as we speak they could be slapping a patch somewhere in El Salvador or Asia that will kill you ten years from now, maybe they did one five years ago that will kill you tomorrow. You don't understand that when we do a permanent repair its supposed to be as good as original. What we do we carry for life. As long as its flying, not just this fiscal year or this quarter. Our responsibility does not end when we punch out or move to another job. You wouldn't understand that.

 

[Bob Owens]

Please read the report. It was a multitude of causes but the fracture occurred to the aft fitting because they were using a forklift, there was little precision in operating the forklift, and they had a shift turnover while the crew was in the middle of the hanging the engine and the forklift bled down. Very few accidents are a single point failure. The ECO called out that the engine and pylon could be changed as a unit. 
 
Again, read the accident report.
 
It's okay to not know everything Bob. The NTSB did a detailed investigation and found that the forklift procedure should be abandoned.

You are such a putz. Once again using a strawman and implying I said something I didn't just to set yourself up for some point you want to make and throw in a petty jab. I read the report, and many others. I'm well aware of the "chain of events" that leads to most disasters. Whats your point? Are you claiming that Eoleson and FWAAA are right and we should not be concerned that they are shipping that work overseas? Is that why you would rather push an agenda where we lower our wages to compete with outsourced maintenance instead of citing quality of work? My point was that the mechanics who worked on it said they would rather do it the way they did dozens of them and remove the engine, then remove the pylon. I spoke to guys who were on it, did you?

 

[eolesen]

the Chinese carrier had on average one crash every four years. How many aircraft were they operating compared to AA over that same time span?

A fair point, but pilot error is by far the main issue with crashes and Chinese carriers.