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Jim Little Response To Ken Mactiernan
- Thread starter James T. Kirk
- Start date
awayfrmitall
Member
- Jan 27, 2004
- 79
- 0
Ok... Explain exactly how Little's letter when it states the same LIE at least 5 times is kicking anyone's butt? Anyone, who knows how to read can easily see that he is full of it...awayfrmitall said:
I am quoting the post above for you TWU faithful that are challenged when it comes to reading. PROVE to me that what Little claims in not a LIE...
Good luck...
Checking it Out
Veteran
- Apr 3, 2003
- 1,702
- 0
Actually hopeful you would be surprised at the results! I think you have been drinking the amfa kool-aid to much!
I'll give you a job wiping my ass. . .Hopeful said:
There you go again Hopeful!!! No wonder you like these amfa boys so much!!!
what's up with the TWU crap mailings and phonecalls?
IT'S CALLED DAMAGE CONTROL!!! Amfa has made a mess of things and someone needs to clean it up!!
You guys always get panicky whenenver the truth is posted. You've done it time and time again and this time is no different. We've come to expect it!!
And Ken, I take it you aren't satisfied with the response you got????? Do you need to be spoonfed?? Let me know and I will see if Hopeful is busy. He's made it known on these boards that he likes the "hands-on involvement" (if you know what I mean!! Please see his previous posts to confirm!))!!
And Ken, I take it you aren't satisfied with the response you got????? Do you need to be spoonfed?? Let me know and I will see if Hopeful is busy. He's made it known on these boards that he likes the "hands-on involvement" (if you know what I mean!! Please see his previous posts to confirm!))!!
OP
James T. Kirk
Senior
- Apr 9, 2003
- 301
- 0
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #37
Always crying about something.
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
Kirk, thank you for your post. I asked a question and you answered it. I do not know why jim thought I would have altered his, or any response I receive from the twu. Nice to know how jim thinks of me. I am not a dishonest person Capt. Kirk. I believe in a craft democratic union for OUR profession. I believe that when I speak people should know who I am and where I am from. Basic virtues of being taken seriously.James T. Kirk said:
Your posting responses from jim might seem like a loyal trait but what happens when you post half truths and lies on behalf of jim?
Like you said, it is a shame that jim must have others post his responses to others instead of himself. Why does jim not simply make the posts himself? Just another question.
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
seguro, we all know why jim is in his position. It is because he was APPOINTED and not elected. I am in my position because I do not believe in industrial unionism for SKILLED CRAFTSMEN! Thanks for the suggestion of singing. How does this sound? Ahem... "GO AMFA GO! GO AMFA GO!"Seguro said:
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
Ken you are the one who choose to take your email to the air waves. As I see it, The TWU has stepped up to the plate and amfa's colors keep coming out! Back peddling and making excuses! If you drink the kool-aid enough you lose site of the true intent!
cio, yes I did go to the airwaves with my correspondence because I believe in the full distribution of facts as they happen. The twu can not possibly "step up to the plate" because they are not even in the same ball park. They are over in the INDUSTRIAL field. "As you see it"? What do you see? I see a coward hiding behind an alias. What are you afraid of cio? Why should people not know who you are?h34r:
cio, yes I did go to the airwaves with my correspondence because I believe in the full distribution of facts as they happen. The twu can not possibly "step up to the plate" because they are not even in the same ball park. They are over in the INDUSTRIAL field. "As you see it"? What do you see? I see a coward hiding behind an alias. What are you afraid of cio? Why should people not know who you are?
h34r:Hey boys,
I see very few topics these days that merit a response but I would be remiss if I didn’t chime in on this one.
Ken, you and Dave both amaze me with your computer literacy but absolutely astound me with you idiocy about the topics that are debated on these boards. You guys absolutely refuse to recognize that you had your opportunity to address these issues at least three times but were too coward to stand up. Instead, you chose to kick TWU professionals out of your September 12th meeting because you had no intention of telling the truth, and on January 15th you chose to smell up the place as you stood outside the debate that you so desperately said you wanted and then claim that you weren’t “qualified†to speak on “scamfa’s†behalf (but you're qualified to preach it here and at work where there is no accountability) and then again on January 17th, you refused to debate and actually refused entrance to the membership that your organization says it wants to represent.
Beyond that, you are both bitching about things that you had an opportunity to argue in a court of law but once again your failure to overcome what you consider an “injustice†can mean one of two things. Either you guys suck at making an argument that makes any sense at all or that Jim Little and the TWU made the only sound decision that could be made under the circumstances (Judging from the language in the “Force Majeure†case, I tend to think it’s both). You boys can keep your panties in a wad and continue to whine about everything under the sun but the simple truth is, not only did the membership stand up and do the right thing, but they did it in the face of very difficult times and I know it pisses you off to no end to know that scamfa doesn’t have control over the TWU or its destiny. That is only controlled by our membership!
So, that being said the cartoon the James T. Kirk posted is completely appropriate!
I see very few topics these days that merit a response but I would be remiss if I didn’t chime in on this one.
Ken, you and Dave both amaze me with your computer literacy but absolutely astound me with you idiocy about the topics that are debated on these boards. You guys absolutely refuse to recognize that you had your opportunity to address these issues at least three times but were too coward to stand up. Instead, you chose to kick TWU professionals out of your September 12th meeting because you had no intention of telling the truth, and on January 15th you chose to smell up the place as you stood outside the debate that you so desperately said you wanted and then claim that you weren’t “qualified†to speak on “scamfa’s†behalf (but you're qualified to preach it here and at work where there is no accountability) and then again on January 17th, you refused to debate and actually refused entrance to the membership that your organization says it wants to represent.
Beyond that, you are both bitching about things that you had an opportunity to argue in a court of law but once again your failure to overcome what you consider an “injustice†can mean one of two things. Either you guys suck at making an argument that makes any sense at all or that Jim Little and the TWU made the only sound decision that could be made under the circumstances (Judging from the language in the “Force Majeure†case, I tend to think it’s both). You boys can keep your panties in a wad and continue to whine about everything under the sun but the simple truth is, not only did the membership stand up and do the right thing, but they did it in the face of very difficult times and I know it pisses you off to no end to know that scamfa doesn’t have control over the TWU or its destiny. That is only controlled by our membership!
So, that being said the cartoon the James T. Kirk posted is completely appropriate!
Oh yea. I almost forgot to address the rest of Littles spin.
ANSWER #4: In the third quarter 2003 reporting period that ended on September 30, 2003, American Airlines reported a $1 million profit. This compares to a $924 million loss during the same period in 2002. If you think these numbers are bad for our members, then we have a much different vision with regard to what is in our members’ interests.
Yes, Don Carty did attempt to secretly enrich top managers with special bonuses and supplemental pensions. No expert for any union found this out because it was not filed with the SEC until April 16, 2003.
So in other words we paid these people to find less than we could have gotten from the publically filed 10K report? Why didnt we just wait until after the 10K? I thought you said that we had "complete access"? Your boys missed a lot. We got more from the 10K. And that was free! You forgot to add that they also missed the fact that the company had written off $988 million in goodwill, nor did they find how much accellerated depreciation was used or the prepaid leases.In hindsight doesnt it seem obvious that the company's drop dead date for concessions was to make sure that the concessions were in before the 10K was released and absorbed?
You seem to forget that we caught Carty ripping off the company and the TWU and AFL-CIO played a major role in his resignation. In addition to stripping Carty and senior management of their bonuses, we used this incident to leverage profit sharing for our members and an early contract re-opener that is now just two years away.
If I recall only Carty gave up his bonus, all the rest kept them. Profit sharing? Are you kidding me? It only kicks in after they make over $500,000,000 in profits, and then only 10%. So if American makes $500,000,001 in profits all 100,000 employees get to split up 10cents. What exactly is a reopener? Is it the same as section 6 opener where if we can not reach a mutual agreement we can go to the NMB and start the process towards self help? Or is it simply an agreement to discuss possible changes?
Ken, by the way, when the TWU was challenging management at AMR’s last annual meeting, where was AMFA?
Challenged management? What did you do, ask to see their ID? Was AMFA representing anyone at AA? If they were there wouldnt you say that they didnt belong there? Come on Jim, youre reaching here.
ANSWER #1: Ken, when you talk about Northwest, you play an interesting game. AMFA is quick to take credit for the wage rates that it negotiated in 2001, but all of the jobs lost between 2001 and 2004 are the IAM’s fault.
Jim. You forget that AMFA and NWA went all the way to a PEB. That AMFA faced a hostile President, a hostile management as well as a hostile AFL-CIO. They had to make a choice under the PEB. They chose the number one problem at the time, a problem for the last twenty years-the pay. Mechanics at AA knew that whatever the mechanics at NWA got would affect what they got-regardless of union affiliation. However when AA mechanics wanted to support their fellow workers you were against any show of support. You said it was not our fight. You were willing to allow AMFA to suffer at the hands of President Bush and management. You were not willing to put the fact that although there is a rivalry between AMFA and the TWU, technically they are on the same side. Or do you feel that the government and the airlines are our allies and other unions are our enemies? As a result much of the IAM language that was put in over the prior 40 years remained in effect. This language allowed the layoffs and base closures. So yes, this could be attributed to the IAM. This was there legacy towards the NWA mechanics.
These lost jobs and the closure of the Atlanta maintenance base occurred under an AMFA negotiated contract, not an IAM contract. Your argument simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
One contract cycle, that was stifled though the use of a PEB is not a fair charectature of an AMFA contract. Only those changes that the AMFA put in effect under those extreme circumstances should be attributed to them. If you bought a house that needed extensive plumbing and electrical work, and were in the middle of redoing the plumbing, when some rewiring that the previous owner did failed and caused a fire whose fault would it be? Because of the PEB AMFA was limited in the changes they could seek. The overwhelming majority, from all areas of the country, of the members agreed with the course chosen.
At United, two bases were shut down and 6,000 maintenance and related jobs were lost while the IAM was the bargaining agent. But those are not all of the facts. As you are well aware, the base closures and jobs lost at United occurred when the company went into bankruptcy. What you prefer to ignore is that while AMFA was not the bargaining representative at United, AMFA activists were a significant force on United’s property urging IAM members to reject a restructuring agreement that would have kept the company out of bankruptcy. The AMFA organizers told the machinists that they would be better off taking their chances in bankruptcy rather than accepting an IAM negotiated restructuring agreement that included a 7% pay cut.
And you prefer to ignore the fact that the AMFA organizers were right. That the ATSB denied UALs application and that was what sent UAL into bankruptcy. not the failure of the mechanics-who were scheduled for a revote, to ratify the concessions. You should read the newspapers!
Unfortunately, the machinists made the decision to take the advice of the AMFA organizers. This caused the company to go into bankruptcy and created the circumstances where 6,000 jobs were lost and two maintenance bases were shutdown.
You also prefer to ignore USAIR where the mechanics rejected concessions, were forced to revote, granted concessions with the promise from USAIR that they would not come back for more, only to see USIAR go bankrupt, break that promise and come back for more twice, possibly going on a third time.
Two years later, AMFA organizers had the very same advice for TWU members who faced bankruptcy at American Airlines. AMFA supporters urged our members to reject the restructuring agreement, but unlike United, our members made the right decision.
So you say. We will never know how many votes were changed by the International . Why did the International present one ballotting company, then switch to one where Anne McNamara was on the board. A company that failed to even send ballots to many members and used a sequential numbering system for the ballotts where ballots could be changed?
If our members had taken AMFA’s advice, I have no doubt that we would have lost two bases and thousands of mechanic and related jobs throughout the AA system.
Why? We still would have had one of the lowest cost structures for an airline our size. Even prior to the concessions we could do the work cheaper in house. And if AA did try to outsource all the work where would it have all gone? AA has some of the biggest facilities in the world. Most of the third party facilities are already overworked and short of skilled workers.
ANSWER #2: Again, the IAM may have been the bargaining representative when the Oakland and Indianapolis bases were closed, but AMFA was in the middle of its organizing drive and was urging mechanic and related workers to make poor, short-sighted decisions. There is no doubt that the fate of the Oakland and Indianapolis bases were sealed when mechanic and related workers followed the no concessions under any circumstance “better off in bankruptcy†advice of AMFA’s organizers and took the company into bankruptcy.
As proved already, the rejection of the concessions would not have stopped UAL from going Bankrupt any more than the acceptance of concessions at USAIR stopped USAIR from going bankrupt. USAIR has given thhree rounds of concessions and also saw the closeure of bases and layoffs. Is that AMFAs fault too? Poor spin there Jim.
As for the ANP issue, the IAM, in fact, successfully sued UAL on this matter, but the bottom line was the same – in bankruptcy the bases were closed and the jobs and work was lost forever.
Forever? So you know the future? How come you couldnt tell the future prior to the 10K? The government dissagrees, they say that there will likely be a 17% increase in the demnand for A&P mechanics by 2010.Yo're not a young man Jim. We have sen this industry contract and expand before, it actually happens quite frequently. All those mechanics who lost their jobs will eventually get back in if they want to. The question is with what the TWU is doing to the profession, will they want to?
ANSWER #3: Nice try Ken, but your facts are wrong. The $2 billion contract that United signed with Pratt & Whitney was signed in January 2004. That’s six months after AMFA became the bargaining representative at United.
And when AA signed a contract with Matsushita what did the TWU do about it? What if AA signed a contract with BOEING or Airbus, what could the TWU do about it? When AA contracted with other carriers to use AA owned gates and facilities and these carriers hired other maintenence providers to work on the AA ramp, using AA equipement whjat did the TWU do about it? Same answer for all -NOTHING.
Moreover, as stated above, it was the AMFA organizers who urged the machinists to reject a restructuring agreement and go into bankruptcy. AMFA made the bankruptcy bed. Unfortunately for United’s workers, now they are lying in that bed.
Thats the third time you repeated the same lie. UAL was going bankrupt either way. The ATSB rejection of UALs loan request sent UAL into BK and they made that decision to reject based upon the assumption that the mechanics would agree to concessions on the revote like USAIR did.
What you are leaving out is that the real reason why UAL and USAIR went bankrupt is because of the TWU. The TWU has given AA such a cost advantage over the last twenty years that these other carriers could not compete, along with their mismanagement.
By the way, you claim that this outsourcing is because AMFA inherited the IAM’s bad contract language. For argument’s sake, at United, let’s say that AMFA might have negotiated the 38% outsourcing limits that it negotiated at Northwest. Would AMFA’s “great†contract language have stopped any outsourcing at United. Not a chance. AMFA’s 38% outsourcing limit is such a big hole, United could drive more than 1/3 of its entire fleet through it.
Oh yea and our language is so great. All we had to do was take the biggest pay cut and give up the most benifits. What are our limits?
ANSWER #4: United’s financial problems were not just caused by bad management. I think is fair to acknowledge that our industry was deeply shaken by the events of September 11, 2001. The key question is whether pensions at United would be any safer if the company had not gone into bankruptcy. Any bankruptcy lawyer in the country would agree with me in stating that workers’ pensions would be safer if the company was out of bankruptcy. That’s why I believe AMFA played such a destructive role when its organizers urged machinists to reject a restructuring agreement that would have kept the airline out of bankruptcy.
Thats the forth time you repeated the same lie. You also leave out the fact that over at USAIR the workers agreed to concessions and it had no benificial effect.
Speaking of pensions, I should note that the TWU pensions at American Airlines are the best pensions in the industry.
Oh really? And what would you base that opinion on? The fact that we lose the first year? The fact that we have a slightly higher multiplier that is offset by losing a year and lower pay?
Moreover, our pension fund is significantly better funded than Northwest, United and any of the other major legacy carriers.
Well we will find out in twob years wont we, isnt that when our "openers" are scheduled? What a coincidence!
ANSWER #5: While it is United that is demanding that retirees pay more than $700 per month for healthcare, it was AMFA that told the mechanic and related workers to reject a restructuring agreement that would have kept retiree medical intact and take their chances in bankruptcy. The only reason why United is able to demand these concessions from retirees is that the company is in bankruptcy. That’s why the mechanic and related workers at United are so vulnerable. As for AMFA fighting to protect retirees, it is the AFL-CIO unions who have taken the lead. AMFA has done nothing on its own.
There you go lying again. How come you did not mention USAIR once in your whole reply? The fact is the AFL-CIO unions did nothing to protect us from allowing the government and the industry from saddling the burden of Sept 11 and the ecomomy on the workers of this industry. I urged you over and over again to get the AFL-CIO to support action protesting this as it happened. You claimed that I was endangering the union. You are a farce. You are now championing the AFL-CIO for coming in after the damage is done, the same AFL-CIO that you criticized regulary over the last two years.
Ken, over and over again, your questions focus on bad things that resulted from United going into bankruptcy. Why don’t you finally admit that we made the right decision to keep American out of bankruptcy?
Right decision? You have destroyed all our careers. We dont all get two paychecks, six figures from the union and 40 hours a week from the company. Ironically that, something that is not even in the contract, is one of the very few things that the TWU managed to keep. You guys sure took care of yourselves at our expense didnt you?
ANSWER #6: Another downside to bankruptcy is that the lawyers and the consultants are the only winners. If bankruptcy had been avoided at United, perhaps that $71 million would have been better used for retiree healthcare.
A plus to it is that management is changed, however a new team may not have kept paying the TWU and your cozy relationship may have come to an end.
You ask why we do not write to the members that 3000 AMT’s did not receive pins. That is just inaccurate, and it was further stipulated in the July 2. 2003 (Southern District of New York) court decision by Judge Preska. In fact, after review it was determined that 467 Line C/C did not receive pin numbers, and after the clerical problem was solved eventually 224 did vote. The court also found that error was “clerical and administrative rather that some intentional action on the part of the Unionâ€
Once again you misinform. The court did not make findings, it only expressed opinions and denied the application for an injuction. Her decision was whether or not the conditions required extrordinary court action, an injunction, due to irreparable harm, not whether or not the complaint was warranted. Since monies could have been recovered there was no irreparable harm. And what about the sequential pin numbers? Why did you change to a company that had a very recently retires AA executive sitting on its board?
ANSWER #4: In the third quarter 2003 reporting period that ended on September 30, 2003, American Airlines reported a $1 million profit. This compares to a $924 million loss during the same period in 2002. If you think these numbers are bad for our members, then we have a much different vision with regard to what is in our members’ interests.
Yes, Don Carty did attempt to secretly enrich top managers with special bonuses and supplemental pensions. No expert for any union found this out because it was not filed with the SEC until April 16, 2003.
So in other words we paid these people to find less than we could have gotten from the publically filed 10K report? Why didnt we just wait until after the 10K? I thought you said that we had "complete access"? Your boys missed a lot. We got more from the 10K. And that was free! You forgot to add that they also missed the fact that the company had written off $988 million in goodwill, nor did they find how much accellerated depreciation was used or the prepaid leases.In hindsight doesnt it seem obvious that the company's drop dead date for concessions was to make sure that the concessions were in before the 10K was released and absorbed?
You seem to forget that we caught Carty ripping off the company and the TWU and AFL-CIO played a major role in his resignation. In addition to stripping Carty and senior management of their bonuses, we used this incident to leverage profit sharing for our members and an early contract re-opener that is now just two years away.
If I recall only Carty gave up his bonus, all the rest kept them. Profit sharing? Are you kidding me? It only kicks in after they make over $500,000,000 in profits, and then only 10%. So if American makes $500,000,001 in profits all 100,000 employees get to split up 10cents. What exactly is a reopener? Is it the same as section 6 opener where if we can not reach a mutual agreement we can go to the NMB and start the process towards self help? Or is it simply an agreement to discuss possible changes?
Ken, by the way, when the TWU was challenging management at AMR’s last annual meeting, where was AMFA?
Challenged management? What did you do, ask to see their ID? Was AMFA representing anyone at AA? If they were there wouldnt you say that they didnt belong there? Come on Jim, youre reaching here.
ANSWER #1: Ken, when you talk about Northwest, you play an interesting game. AMFA is quick to take credit for the wage rates that it negotiated in 2001, but all of the jobs lost between 2001 and 2004 are the IAM’s fault.
Jim. You forget that AMFA and NWA went all the way to a PEB. That AMFA faced a hostile President, a hostile management as well as a hostile AFL-CIO. They had to make a choice under the PEB. They chose the number one problem at the time, a problem for the last twenty years-the pay. Mechanics at AA knew that whatever the mechanics at NWA got would affect what they got-regardless of union affiliation. However when AA mechanics wanted to support their fellow workers you were against any show of support. You said it was not our fight. You were willing to allow AMFA to suffer at the hands of President Bush and management. You were not willing to put the fact that although there is a rivalry between AMFA and the TWU, technically they are on the same side. Or do you feel that the government and the airlines are our allies and other unions are our enemies? As a result much of the IAM language that was put in over the prior 40 years remained in effect. This language allowed the layoffs and base closures. So yes, this could be attributed to the IAM. This was there legacy towards the NWA mechanics.
These lost jobs and the closure of the Atlanta maintenance base occurred under an AMFA negotiated contract, not an IAM contract. Your argument simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
One contract cycle, that was stifled though the use of a PEB is not a fair charectature of an AMFA contract. Only those changes that the AMFA put in effect under those extreme circumstances should be attributed to them. If you bought a house that needed extensive plumbing and electrical work, and were in the middle of redoing the plumbing, when some rewiring that the previous owner did failed and caused a fire whose fault would it be? Because of the PEB AMFA was limited in the changes they could seek. The overwhelming majority, from all areas of the country, of the members agreed with the course chosen.
At United, two bases were shut down and 6,000 maintenance and related jobs were lost while the IAM was the bargaining agent. But those are not all of the facts. As you are well aware, the base closures and jobs lost at United occurred when the company went into bankruptcy. What you prefer to ignore is that while AMFA was not the bargaining representative at United, AMFA activists were a significant force on United’s property urging IAM members to reject a restructuring agreement that would have kept the company out of bankruptcy. The AMFA organizers told the machinists that they would be better off taking their chances in bankruptcy rather than accepting an IAM negotiated restructuring agreement that included a 7% pay cut.
And you prefer to ignore the fact that the AMFA organizers were right. That the ATSB denied UALs application and that was what sent UAL into bankruptcy. not the failure of the mechanics-who were scheduled for a revote, to ratify the concessions. You should read the newspapers!
Unfortunately, the machinists made the decision to take the advice of the AMFA organizers. This caused the company to go into bankruptcy and created the circumstances where 6,000 jobs were lost and two maintenance bases were shutdown.
You also prefer to ignore USAIR where the mechanics rejected concessions, were forced to revote, granted concessions with the promise from USAIR that they would not come back for more, only to see USIAR go bankrupt, break that promise and come back for more twice, possibly going on a third time.
Two years later, AMFA organizers had the very same advice for TWU members who faced bankruptcy at American Airlines. AMFA supporters urged our members to reject the restructuring agreement, but unlike United, our members made the right decision.
So you say. We will never know how many votes were changed by the International . Why did the International present one ballotting company, then switch to one where Anne McNamara was on the board. A company that failed to even send ballots to many members and used a sequential numbering system for the ballotts where ballots could be changed?
If our members had taken AMFA’s advice, I have no doubt that we would have lost two bases and thousands of mechanic and related jobs throughout the AA system.
Why? We still would have had one of the lowest cost structures for an airline our size. Even prior to the concessions we could do the work cheaper in house. And if AA did try to outsource all the work where would it have all gone? AA has some of the biggest facilities in the world. Most of the third party facilities are already overworked and short of skilled workers.
ANSWER #2: Again, the IAM may have been the bargaining representative when the Oakland and Indianapolis bases were closed, but AMFA was in the middle of its organizing drive and was urging mechanic and related workers to make poor, short-sighted decisions. There is no doubt that the fate of the Oakland and Indianapolis bases were sealed when mechanic and related workers followed the no concessions under any circumstance “better off in bankruptcy†advice of AMFA’s organizers and took the company into bankruptcy.
As proved already, the rejection of the concessions would not have stopped UAL from going Bankrupt any more than the acceptance of concessions at USAIR stopped USAIR from going bankrupt. USAIR has given thhree rounds of concessions and also saw the closeure of bases and layoffs. Is that AMFAs fault too? Poor spin there Jim.
As for the ANP issue, the IAM, in fact, successfully sued UAL on this matter, but the bottom line was the same – in bankruptcy the bases were closed and the jobs and work was lost forever.
Forever? So you know the future? How come you couldnt tell the future prior to the 10K? The government dissagrees, they say that there will likely be a 17% increase in the demnand for A&P mechanics by 2010.Yo're not a young man Jim. We have sen this industry contract and expand before, it actually happens quite frequently. All those mechanics who lost their jobs will eventually get back in if they want to. The question is with what the TWU is doing to the profession, will they want to?
ANSWER #3: Nice try Ken, but your facts are wrong. The $2 billion contract that United signed with Pratt & Whitney was signed in January 2004. That’s six months after AMFA became the bargaining representative at United.
And when AA signed a contract with Matsushita what did the TWU do about it? What if AA signed a contract with BOEING or Airbus, what could the TWU do about it? When AA contracted with other carriers to use AA owned gates and facilities and these carriers hired other maintenence providers to work on the AA ramp, using AA equipement whjat did the TWU do about it? Same answer for all -NOTHING.
Moreover, as stated above, it was the AMFA organizers who urged the machinists to reject a restructuring agreement and go into bankruptcy. AMFA made the bankruptcy bed. Unfortunately for United’s workers, now they are lying in that bed.
Thats the third time you repeated the same lie. UAL was going bankrupt either way. The ATSB rejection of UALs loan request sent UAL into BK and they made that decision to reject based upon the assumption that the mechanics would agree to concessions on the revote like USAIR did.
What you are leaving out is that the real reason why UAL and USAIR went bankrupt is because of the TWU. The TWU has given AA such a cost advantage over the last twenty years that these other carriers could not compete, along with their mismanagement.
By the way, you claim that this outsourcing is because AMFA inherited the IAM’s bad contract language. For argument’s sake, at United, let’s say that AMFA might have negotiated the 38% outsourcing limits that it negotiated at Northwest. Would AMFA’s “great†contract language have stopped any outsourcing at United. Not a chance. AMFA’s 38% outsourcing limit is such a big hole, United could drive more than 1/3 of its entire fleet through it.
Oh yea and our language is so great. All we had to do was take the biggest pay cut and give up the most benifits. What are our limits?
ANSWER #4: United’s financial problems were not just caused by bad management. I think is fair to acknowledge that our industry was deeply shaken by the events of September 11, 2001. The key question is whether pensions at United would be any safer if the company had not gone into bankruptcy. Any bankruptcy lawyer in the country would agree with me in stating that workers’ pensions would be safer if the company was out of bankruptcy. That’s why I believe AMFA played such a destructive role when its organizers urged machinists to reject a restructuring agreement that would have kept the airline out of bankruptcy.
Thats the forth time you repeated the same lie. You also leave out the fact that over at USAIR the workers agreed to concessions and it had no benificial effect.
Speaking of pensions, I should note that the TWU pensions at American Airlines are the best pensions in the industry.
Oh really? And what would you base that opinion on? The fact that we lose the first year? The fact that we have a slightly higher multiplier that is offset by losing a year and lower pay?
Moreover, our pension fund is significantly better funded than Northwest, United and any of the other major legacy carriers.
Well we will find out in twob years wont we, isnt that when our "openers" are scheduled? What a coincidence!
ANSWER #5: While it is United that is demanding that retirees pay more than $700 per month for healthcare, it was AMFA that told the mechanic and related workers to reject a restructuring agreement that would have kept retiree medical intact and take their chances in bankruptcy. The only reason why United is able to demand these concessions from retirees is that the company is in bankruptcy. That’s why the mechanic and related workers at United are so vulnerable. As for AMFA fighting to protect retirees, it is the AFL-CIO unions who have taken the lead. AMFA has done nothing on its own.
There you go lying again. How come you did not mention USAIR once in your whole reply? The fact is the AFL-CIO unions did nothing to protect us from allowing the government and the industry from saddling the burden of Sept 11 and the ecomomy on the workers of this industry. I urged you over and over again to get the AFL-CIO to support action protesting this as it happened. You claimed that I was endangering the union. You are a farce. You are now championing the AFL-CIO for coming in after the damage is done, the same AFL-CIO that you criticized regulary over the last two years.
Ken, over and over again, your questions focus on bad things that resulted from United going into bankruptcy. Why don’t you finally admit that we made the right decision to keep American out of bankruptcy?
Right decision? You have destroyed all our careers. We dont all get two paychecks, six figures from the union and 40 hours a week from the company. Ironically that, something that is not even in the contract, is one of the very few things that the TWU managed to keep. You guys sure took care of yourselves at our expense didnt you?
ANSWER #6: Another downside to bankruptcy is that the lawyers and the consultants are the only winners. If bankruptcy had been avoided at United, perhaps that $71 million would have been better used for retiree healthcare.
A plus to it is that management is changed, however a new team may not have kept paying the TWU and your cozy relationship may have come to an end.
You ask why we do not write to the members that 3000 AMT’s did not receive pins. That is just inaccurate, and it was further stipulated in the July 2. 2003 (Southern District of New York) court decision by Judge Preska. In fact, after review it was determined that 467 Line C/C did not receive pin numbers, and after the clerical problem was solved eventually 224 did vote. The court also found that error was “clerical and administrative rather that some intentional action on the part of the Unionâ€
Once again you misinform. The court did not make findings, it only expressed opinions and denied the application for an injuction. Her decision was whether or not the conditions required extrordinary court action, an injunction, due to irreparable harm, not whether or not the complaint was warranted. Since monies could have been recovered there was no irreparable harm. And what about the sequential pin numbers? Why did you change to a company that had a very recently retires AA executive sitting on its board?
