JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[Jester]

Someone just assure me that no CSM is going to walk into my gate and give me a job assignment, not going to pull a trip sheet or finalize a flight, get in any bellies, run bags and finally touch a bag or escort in the future TA when it comes for me to vote on and all will be cool?

This talk that Management does "things" we don't want them doing just keeps coming back to my ears no matter how many times I try to shake it off? It's like the Vampire that won't die?

Make no mistake about it on the US side... Management will directly order ramp agents to perform tasks without going through a Lead. I did review AA's CBA and took note where that is specifically not allowed unless a CC is not available. That would be completely different from anything I have seen before.

 

[WeAAsles]

Make no mistake about it on the US side... Management will directly order ramp agents to perform tasks without going through a Lead. I did review AA's CBA and took note where that is specifically not allowed unless a CC is not available. That would be completely different from anything I have seen before.

THERE YOU GO!!!! Thank you Jester. The wording is "Absent a Crew Chief Management may"

In the IAM contract what I read for Leads is that a Lead may.

Difference between the two CBA's

IAM: Lead (Union brother or Sister) "may"
TWU: Management (Non Union) "may"

BIG difference in "language"

 

[cltrat]

Wee z many a CSM has been successfully grieved here for doing Union work one no longer here to the point the company took it out of his pay once

 

[WeAAsles]

Wee z many a CSM has been successfully grieved here for doing Union work one no longer here to the point the company took it out of his pay once

Ok rat but I very much consider Crew Chief work to also be Union work and want to continue to protect that work as much as lifting or touching a bag as well.

 

[Albert]

I don't understand this whole lead/CC thing except the CC makes .59 cents more than I do. In CLT you might see a CSM walking around but that's just because he can say he did. He sure isn't running things on each gate.
The lead pulls the load plan tells his guys when to be out there to load it, most all leads scan, hard to trust every person to do it right when your the guy signed in to it.. I could easily go thru a shift without ever speaking to a CSM.
As far as CC's changing to leads all I hear when I wonder about a change made is that's the way they do at AA it as a stock answer

Thanks for explaining it, right now we are shifting more to a CC there is one to each gate and he scans and closes out flights, After the merger the management hiring exploded most are all right but you have some 25 year old kid formerly from one of our vendors looking over a crew that were all hired before he was born. now you can'y put the kids in charge of the candy but this hiring explosion is one of the craziest things I've ever seen . They don't even know where to put them all

 

[WeAAsles]

Thanks for explaining it, right now we are shifting more to a CC there is one to each gate and he scans and closes out flights, After the merger the management hiring exploded most are all right but you have some 25 year old kid formerly from one of our vendors looking over a crew that were all hired before he was born. now you can'y put the kids in charge of the candy but this hiring explosion is one of the craziest things I've ever seen . They don't even know where to put them all

Got this text so it could explain things?

"PHX is still in the old HP mode, CLT doesn't let it happen"

And apparently (obviously) La Guardia NYC wouldn't let it happen either.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

My buddy (1998) was JFSC all the way to 2001 in pay and then he only moved up to the next step on the ladder.

I hired in May of 1995 and I topped out in 8 years. Another guy I know who came in Nov of 1995 it took him 14 years to TOS.

Some cities did have Airport minimums though so they couldn't legally hire at the bottom of scale.

well, maybe you have a better memory. when i add aa getting rid of the jr. red shirts and remembering that aa wanted to get rid of jr. fleet service..it makes me believe that they did get rid of it within 1-2 years of being implemented.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Make no mistake about it on the US side... Management will directly order ramp agents to perform tasks without going through a Lead. I did review AA's CBA and took note where that is specifically not allowed unless a CC is not available. That would be completely different from anything I have seen before.

even if a c/c is available, the supervisor can give you a directive and failure to comply is insubordination..up to and including termination. i have seen laa c/c and fsc terminated for that, only to come back a month later when arbitrator ruled the directive was unsafe. this was in 1989 or 1990. different days now.

 

[WeAAsles]

well, maybe you have a better memory. when i add aa getting rid of the jr. red shirts and remembering that aa wanted to get rid of jr. fleet service..it makes me believe that they did get rid of it within 1-2 years of being implemented.

You have to remember it is easier for me to know the story better because I was only 5 months removed from being a part of it myself. Even had some people actually mad at ME because I wasn't one of them. Seriously.

In 2003 as a matter of fact one guy who got layed off from DFW and came here to MIA didn't get a check for 6 months because they had a flex rate in DFW when he hired in and they took all that money back from him cause MIA didn't have one.

I saw his checks. $0.00

 

[WeAAsles]

even if a c/c is available, the supervisor can give you a directive and failure to comply is insubordination..up to and including termination. i have seen laa c/c and fsc terminated for that, only to come back a month later when arbitrator ruled the directive was unsafe. this was in 1989 or 1990. different days now.

Yes. Or the Supervisor didn't give the directive properly.

"Do you understand what a Directive means"

 

[anotherdelay]

I predicted the issue of CC/Lead responsibilities and authority as being a sticking point in the JCBA a couple of years ago, and has been given little attention. In PHX, "I.A.M." came to mean "I'll Ask Management" and I observed the differences with the AA side of operations with the CCs becoming the buffer between the generally incompetent Management and ramp agents.

That being said, I also observed CCs who avoided most of the physical work appearing only when it was time to load the plane. It was a rather stark contrast between PHX Leads who typically set-up equipment, marshaled in planes, grabbed gate valets, hooked-up air and power, assisted in down load, checked water, execute the load plan, close-out the flight, and then push back the plane.

My biggest objection in my observations to the CCs were their overall disengagement from the physical work and the primary "qualification" to becoming a CC was that the person had higher seniority (and difficult to remove regardless of abilities).

lotta of incompetent crew chiefs, but the crews should be doing 80 percent of the watering, connecting the tow bar etc...become a d1/crew chief you'll have more respect fort the position, other than just sitting in the belly complaining about the cc. the bad crew chiefs will get the bad crews, the good crew chiefs will get the good crews. on down the line.

 

[Jester]

even if a c/c is available, the supervisor can give you a directive and failure to comply is insubordination..up to and including termination. i have seen laa c/c and fsc terminated for that, only to come back a month later when arbitrator ruled the directive was unsafe. this was in 1989 or 1990. different days now.

My view has always been simple-- get a questionable order/directive on record, perform the ordered task as requested (assuming it isn't a safety issue), and then consider grieving the issue later.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

it was an actual manager...and gate holds where occurring, 3 gate holds/20 minutes and running at the same time at ord intl.

a day earlier, a plane's wing nicked a piece of equipment...no safety lines painted. fscs suspended.

the next day, a brave c/c said he would not bring in any planes. he told his crew not to bring in any planes. the manager came out from his office and gave all directives, bring the planes in. everyone refused, he fired 2 fscs on the spot, c/c and guideman.

planes came in by themselves...mgnt. wing-walked and guided.

 

[Albert]

Someone just assure me that no CSM is going to walk into my gate and give me a job assignment, not going to pull a trip sheet or finalize a flight, get in any bellies, run bags and finally touch a bag or escort in the future TA when it comes for me to vote on and all will be cool?

This talk that Management does "things" we don't want them doing just keeps coming back to my ears no matter how many times I try to shake it off? It's like the Vampire that won't die?

You need to sharpen that wooden stake or polish that silver bullet cause I've never seen a manager do ONE of those things even when we were non union

 

[Jester]

lotta of incompetent crew chiefs, but the crews should be doing 80 percent of the watering, connecting the tow bar etc...become a d1/crew chief you'll have more respect fort the position, other than just sitting in the belly complaining about the cc. the bad crew chiefs will get the bad crews, the good crew chiefs will get the good crews. on down the line.

I have said before that the Leads in PHX will be worked like dogs and the primary "qualification" in becoming a lead would be the ability to fog a mirror and a willingness to be abused. However, the other extreme was observing the CCs who couldn't be bothered to even meet an arriving American metal flight at the gate to assist in the download.