JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[NYer]

And then, way way back in April of 2017, after Parker said there would be "no soup for you" until your contract is up again, he magically found another $900 million in his pocket to hand out like candy to those same 2 groups (8% pilots/ 5% FA's).
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-talk-blog/article146963454.html
That money bump happened literally as Isom was in Town Halls telling us they can't give us everything we want. You can't make this stuff up.

The TWU and IAM also received a financial bump outside of a JCBA agreement.

Language is a different matter than takes much more time unless you agree to an artificial deadline, such as the APA and APFA.

 

[WeAAsles]

BOOM!!!! We have a winner folks! Another OUTSTANDING post Traymark!

Can't give that one a "winner" tag dvlhog. The ball was too easily hit back over the net.

 

[NYer]

Lets go back to the "AA would give us the SW contract right now" , how bout this, lets go back to the AA contract of 2001, it's already written, just update the pay commensurate with the times and logical progression.
Not too complicated. It took 56 days to take it away, it could be restored in 1 day, with the appropriate bumps in compensation.

Your argument that "it's complicated" is really really weak sauce when you look at what has happened with other very large and complicated work groups like our Pilots and FA's, and also, what has happened with us , yes in the way way back times of 2003.

Someone please tell me , am I in OZ or some other make believe land here or
Are we getting seriously played, with the help of both of our current representative bodies?

WeAAsles is the proud author of the recent contribution of "AA would give you the SW contract right now" in his arguments about AMFA.

Be that as it may, I'd agree they'd give you their deal because it has some of the built in concessions they'd want. On the Fleet side it would be a considerable difference from current TWU CBA language.

If you want to make simple comparisons in order to make the situation fit your preferred outcome then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Those issues you mention are different to the current process we're in and if want to ignore that fact then I guess that's your choice.

 

[swamt]

So I hallucinated that exchange we had about the IAMPF vs 401K?
I do find it funny how you seem to "misremember" your conversations about the pension.

BTW, are you & C. Brown pushing for an industry leading 401K Contribution to go along with industry leading health care, all in concert with Americans Dramatically Improved Financial Position of the last 4 years?
Because , I will remind all of you in case you forgot, American couldn't take our compensation away fast enough back in 2003 because of the dramatically deteriorating financial position.
Those were the "exact" words used back in 2003 when they hurried us to the table and re-wrote ALL 3 work groups in 56 days at the same time.
Yeah, it was damn complicated to remove language that had been in place for many years, but they got it done, and not a single problem getting meeting space and negotiating dates.
They went to DFW and stayed there until it was done.
there wasn't any "couple dates a month", it was completed in less than 2 months.
56 days.

Industry leading contract P.Rez.
If not now, then when can we expect a watershed contract with gains across the board?
Record Profits over the last 4 years.

We should be getting Free healthcare, it used to be Free, and guess what, they weren't making anything near the profits they are now.
So why shouldn't we expect gains everywhere?

The raise from last year (has it been that long?) just nearly brought us back up to where we would have been if we hadn't taken industry leading cuts 14years ago. It still fell well short of where it needed to be.

It's now time for the company to come correct.
I damn sure hope the NC reads this board, because anything less than industry leading across the board, would be an abject failure at this time with the profits this company has enjoyed on the backs of our labor and our 14+ years of give backs.

Correct. This asso promised industry leading from the get go. Anything less should be a well defined NO vote IF the membership gets a vote.

Kev3188,

I give briefings on open items and the status of negotiations and the only question that comes up that I can remember, Health Insurance. Now I have briefed that the pension/401k is open but can't recall a specific question regarding it for many, many months. Don't get me wrong, it might of been brought up, but not to the point where it stands out in my mind. Health Insurance has been the big topic on everyone's mind.

P. Rez

I would beg to differ for the simple fact that there are a lot more people speaking out about the IAMPF. Health care cost were mentioned but not until later in the game and not as much as the IAMPF has been discussed.

The APA and APFA has a provision in their BK agreements which called for a specific negotiating period, I believe it was 150 days, and if no agreement was made consensually they would settle their JCBA in binding arbitration.

Don't believe you'd prefer that option.

So why hasn't these two wonderful unions been able to get that language into their contracts like the other 2 groups have?

 

[Traymark]

The APA and APFA has a provision in their BK agreements which called for a specific negotiating period, I believe it was 150 days, and if no agreement was made consensually they would settle their JCBA in binding arbitration.

Don't believe you'd prefer that option.

Try me.

The TWU and IAM also received a financial bump outside of a JCBA agreement.

Language is a different matter than takes much more time unless you agree to an artificial deadline, such as the APA and APFA.

Our financial bump was very uneven, great for the IAM ,really crappy for the TWU.

To your point on the "artificial deadline" :
Somehow, someway, it made everything extremely understandable and simple, much less complicated.
What helll kind of fool do you think we are?

Can't give that one a "winner" tag dvlhog. The ball was too easily hit back over the net.

Dude, you are really absorbed in your disillusion. It must be fun in weaasleland.
I live in realville.

If you want to make simple comparisons in order to make the situation fit your preferred outcome then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Those issues you mention are different to the current process we're in and if want to ignore that fact then I guess that's your choice.

NYer, you have the floor, show me where I am wrong,
I'll wait...

 

[WeAAsles]

Correct. This asso promised industry leading from the get go. Anything less should be a well defined NO vote IF the membership gets a vote.


I would beg to differ for the simple fact that there are a lot more people speaking out about the IAMPF. Health care cost were mentioned but not until later in the game and not as much as the IAMPF has been discussed.


So why hasn't these two wonderful unions been able to get that language into their contracts like the other 2 groups have?

And this is why you don't belong on the AA boards. You're hopelessly disconnected.

Both the Pilots and FA's had and continue to have serious buyers remorse over their deals. And they had to BEG Parker to give them raises to catch them up. Yes BEG MANAGEMENT!!!!!

Neither Union in the Association ever agreed to any interest based Arbitration perhaps because they were better able to read the tea leaves.

 

[WeAAsles]

Try me.



Our financial bump was very uneven, great for the IAM ,really crappy for the TWU.

To your point on the "artificial deadline" :
Somehow, someway, it made everything extremely understandable and simple, much less complicated.
What helll kind of fool do you think we are?


Dude, you are really absorbed in your disillusion. It must be fun in weaasleland.
I live in realville.



NYer, you have the floor, show me where I am wrong,
I'll wait...

Look at your paycheck that is deposited every other Friday. We received dramatic raises last October.

Otherwise in some financial areas yes there is a disparity with our IAM counterparts. (Not on workrules and jobs though)

 

[Tim Nelson]

I expected nothing less from you NY'er, because thats the card that continues to get played.
I've seen it mentioned on here, maybe by you," AA would give us the SW contract right now".

How can that be if it really takes literally years, apparently, to negotiate a contract?
Well, the truth is, it doesn't take years.
It took both the Pilots and Flight Attendants about 4 months, and not way way back in ancient times of 2003, this happened in December 2014 and January 2015.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business...attendants-to-get-bigger-pay-raises-after-all
https://www.dallasnews.com/business...an-airlines-pilots-approve-new-contract-66-34

And then, way way back in April of 2017, after Parker said there would be "no soup for you" until your contract is up again, he magically found another $900 million in his pocket to hand out like candy to those same 2 groups (8% pilots/ 5% FA's).
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-talk-blog/article146963454.html
That money bump happened literally as Isom was in Town Halls telling us they can't give us everything we want. You can't make this stuff up.

Lets go back to the "AA would give us the SW contract right now" , how bout this, lets go back to the AA contract of 2001, it's already written, just update the pay commensurate with the times and logical progression.
Not too complicated. It took 56 days to take it away, it could be restored in 1 day, with the appropriate bumps in compensation.

Your argument that "it's complicated" is really really weak sauce when you look at what has happened with other very large and complicated work groups like our Pilots and FA's, and also, what has happened with us , yes in the way way back times of 2003.

Someone please tell me , am I in OZ or some other make believe land here or
Are we getting seriously played, with the help of both of our current representative bodies?

Of course we are getting played. And, one of our leaders just said that they very likely may bring back a shiaatt comprehensive proposal for a vote, then tell people to vote no [phony sell] to use it as a baseline for negotiating a real contract. Now, how phony is that? A union boss who is in negotiations telling us on this forum that he has been negotiating for 5 years for a shiatt 'rotten to the core' comprehensive proposal for our members to vote on, that he will instruct to vote against, so he can finally go back into negotiations and use the shiatt proposal as a baseline? Really? So how much longer to negotiate a real contract? Sounds like just waiting for section 6 and drag things out 5-10 more years. And why use any shiatte proposal as a baseline? I thought the baseline was our proposals we sent in 5 years ago?

So, there you have it from Prez. Negotiate a shiatt agreement, i.e., one in which the IAM's name is signed on as a Tentative agreement, which indicates 100% support for the agreement, but then have the LUS reps do a Pontius Pilot and wash their hands, distancing themselves as they watch the TWU vote it in. I'll do all I can to brand that on their arses. Believe me. But justice will not be served upon LUS members if we give up medical or anything we currently have. Why would we?

Remember, we are dealing with Union Bosses, like Prez, who see no problem in McGee Air Services in PHX (22 employees) becoming IAM so that Alaska Airlines could circumvent the $15.34 minimum wage it had to pay in SeaTac. A 12 page contract that was signed prior to applying to the NMB for representation. Why wouldn't Alaska Airlines voluntarily recognize this scab union? The 12 page contract contains 1 page where it vetoes 15 Local Ordinances from SeaTac to EWR and brings wages down from $15.34 down to $12. 4 pages on IAM Dues. 1 paragraph on benefits, i.e., no retirement, 5 PDO a year, no health care unless a person works, on average, 30+ hours a week, even though Alaska sends certain employees home for 2 or 3 weeks at a time when the average gets close (IAM agreed that employees can be sent home for blocks of weeks, whenever the company wants).

Prez sees nothing wrong with that. If one reads the Washington Supreme Court ruling, Alaska Airlines pleads that it would have to fire all of the menzies contractors and find a willing union to circumvent the $15.34 minimum wage. So, after the Change to Win spent $2 million plus, and the AFLCIO spent $5 million on securing the $15 mimimum at SeaTac, the IAM conspires with management for $12 buck wages for dues grab. Now, the 22 employees of McGee has swelled up over 1,000 and will spread to an airport near you. But Prez and the IAM bosses don't care since they are increasing dues.

Prez, are you the one who got the authorization cards signed by the McGee people up in PHX?

 

[Traymark]

The raise was a year late and a dollar short.
The fact that they didn't true up the benefits too, and then turned around and gave the Pilots and FA's $900 million out of contract while our unions stood there and let them do that to us speaks volumes.

 

[Tim Nelson]

And this is why you don't belong on the AA boards. You're hopelessly disconnected.

Both the Pilots and FA's had and continue to have serious buyers remorse over their deals. And they had to BEG Parker to give them raises to catch them up. Yes BEG MANAGEMENT!!!!!

Neither Union in the Association ever agreed to any interest based Arbitration perhaps because they were better able to read the tea leaves.

I don't agree about the begging as it seems to me that both of those unions ran a corporate campaign pestering management with some trumped up uniform crisis for the stews, and then the pilots ran some adds that hurt the company. Never mind picketing corporate headquarters. But if you want to call that begging, then what's wrong with that? We should beg in that context then instead of standing down. Anything is better than simply saying "We are disappointed with management." Really? When our union reduces things down to "Being disappointed with management", that's an understatement.

And I don't think there was any buyers remorse. How would there be? I mean, I didn't hear any of the Pilots or Stews stomping their feet about getting rid of anything in the contract they signed? I thought they like it? They just wanted more wages. Why not?
LUS has a new contract since the merger announcement but why shouldn't we be like the Pilots or Stews? Why shouldn't we be stomping our feet publicly wanting more? Sure, we don't have a JCBA yet, but stews and pilots signed on and so did LUS ramp. No buyers remorse by any of us, but I wish LUS union bosses would take the same path as the stew bosses and pilot union bosses and demand more and do so publicly instead of standing down and claiming they are satisfied with the negotiation progress. Really?

I'm surprised the CWA/IBT doesn't do the same thing. And I'm pleasantly surprised that the TWU decided to picket. The DFW picket WILL be impressive i'm sure. That needs to be carried over to PHL and CLT as well but I doubt the IAM bosses agree. As Prez stated, he is fine with the progress by management in negotiations. Remember?

 

[WeAAsles]

The raise was a year late and a dollar short.
The fact that they didn't true up the benefits too, and then turned around and gave the Pilots and FA's $900 million out of contract while our unions stood there and let them do that to us speaks volumes.

Let them? Seriously?

Do pray tell how "let them" please?

 

[Tim Nelson]

The raise was a year late and a dollar short.
The fact that they didn't true up the benefits too, and then turned around and gave the Pilots and FA's $900 million out of contract while our unions stood there and let them do that to us speaks volumes.

Several town halls back up what you said. Parker insisted that he wasn't going to open up any contract. Then the stews and pilots ran a corporate campaign. All of the sudden, Parker found $900 million more. Yet, we just had a Union boss, Prez come on there yesterday to say that he thinks we could have a comprehensive proposal come down that the union would agree with to TA, then phony sell the thing for a no vote, to use as a baseline for 'new' negotiations. Could you imagine the timeline? Remember, section 6 is about 13 months away. If our small mentality is so stupid, I wonder how much longer the company would put up with the monkeys? Does the company want a contract? Hell yeah, but we are blowing our chances by playing games.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Let them? Seriously?

Do pray tell how "let them" please?

The company isn't going to give us anything, we have to take it from them. That's what he is saying. They did force Parker to give them $900 million. Parker was on record repeatedly saying he won't do it. But they took the money that he didn't want to give. That whole uniform campaign, and other campaigns weren't so silly. We have to take as well. Plenty of ways to do that. None of which are illegal.

 

[WeAAsles]

I don't agree about the begging as it seems to me that both of those unions ran a corporate campaign pestering management with some trumped up uniform crisis for the stews, and then the pilots ran some adds that hurt the company. Never mind picketing corporate headquarters. But if you want to call that begging, then what's wrong with that? We should beg in that context then instead of standing down. Anything is better than simply saying "We are disappointed with management." Really? When our union reduces things down to "Being disappointed with management", that's an understatement.

And I don't think there was any buyers remorse. How would there be? I mean, I didn't hear any of the Pilots or Stews stomping their feet about getting rid of anything in the contract they signed? I thought they like it? They just wanted more wages. Why not?
LUS has a new contract since the merger announcement but why shouldn't we be like the Pilots or Stews? Why shouldn't we be stomping our feet publicly wanting more? Sure, we don't have a JCBA yet, but stews and pilots signed on and so did LUS ramp. No buyers remorse by any of us, but I wish LUS union bosses would take the same path as the stew bosses and pilot union bosses and demand more and do so publicly instead of standing down and claiming they are satisfied with the negotiation progress. Really?

I'm surprised the CWA/IBT doesn't do the same thing. And I'm pleasantly surprised that the TWU decided to picket. The DFW picket WILL be impressive i'm sure. That needs to be carried over to PHL and CLT as well but I doubt the IAM bosses agree. As Prez stated, he is fine with the progress by management in negotiations. Remember?

Pestering, Begging. Tomato, Tomato. Go to the APFA FB page Tim and ask them about the "Hard 40" requirement that ain't going no where.

Your comment where you said you thought they liked it? You thought wrong (in some areas) for both groups.

Again though. Pestering, Begging. Tomato, Tomato I guess?

 

[WeAAsles]

The company isn't going to give us anything, we have to take it from them. That's what he is saying. They did force Parker to give them $900 million. Parker was on record repeatedly saying he won't do it. But they took the money that he didn't want to give. That whole uniform campaign, and other campaigns weren't so silly. We have to take as well. Plenty of ways to do that. None of which are illegal.

Can I protest the fact that my shorts keep opening up below my zipper? I have no itch or rash.

Quite annoying and embarrassing frankly.