JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[Tim Nelson]

Maybe they are making progress and picketing would be considered unproductive. Personally all I think it will accomplish is AANOTOK and his boys are going to sweat through a couple of Tee shirts so if you have stock in Proctor and Gamble..... I take that back more like "Waste Management" cause those things are going in the trash

It would be retarded and anti union if the IAM blows off the picketing, stands down, and refuses to support the TWU picketing. Especially, if the stews and flight attendants join in solidarity. Sad.

BTW, picketing worked for the stews after they were relentless and refused to take Parker at his word that he would not reopen their JCBA for more Cashola. IMO, we should have picketed weeks ago and established a picketing pattern by now. Just for starters. Plus, it would be cool to see NYer and WeAAsles both picketing and exchanging recipes.

 

[anotherdelay]

the more i read about 2017 defined pensions x 401k plans and which is better...the more i realize just how much corporate america/1%ers have hoodwinked the american public. when corporate america can ghostwrite legislation to weaken unions and incentivize companies filing BK to screw blue-collar voters...well, we get what we deserve.

high-5s on the golf course. we have blue-collar workers bragging about the 401k (fund your own pension) and taking companies off the hook for pensions.

let's underfund a pension and then we'll watch them scream to get out of the pension and demand a 401k match. hmmm...instead of paying them $32,000 p/y in retirement, we'll give the majority $4,000 per year in 401k match.

fund your own pension.

i get the part that the nation has changed. i remember in 2013 forbes did a special on it's top 100 companies in 1983 x top 100 companies in 2013.

in 1983, i believe 92 out of the top 100 companies had a defined pension plan.
in 2013, i want to say 4 out of the top 100 had a defined pension plan.

that is the new usa.

1. manufacturing/globalism read Jack Welch's book from late 80's early 90's. that guy outsourced the midwest.
2. tech and lifetime employment, massive change.
3. low interest rates, the technocracy world is the term everyone should learn, and why they are low. Jeff Bezo's opinion was the younger you are the more debt should be availiable to you, at a lower rate it's when you need it most. Bankers love debt, and glass stegall.
4. new tech has only been around in its present form for 22 years, its fast moving, and job changes are legendary.
5. new tech led to massive globalism.
6. the jack welch and old industries that got outsourced instead of being updated here were sent overseas. jack welch became a banker and forgot his roots.
7. go back to 4, can't have pensions in jobs that are fast changing, and not really line jobs.
8. when tech really got going in the mid 80's, the 7 tigers were in a perfect position, since it was all new infrastructure, and cheap labor was plentiful, still is. this dude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming is the one responsible for developing Asia as we know it today, and they will rule over us because he taught them unwittingly.
9. corrupt unions, Jack Welch and glass stegall bankers/insurance companies sold the middle class out.
10. so in a nutshell that's why pensions are dead. I blame Deming mostly.
11. debt is fine when you are young, unless you don't have a job.

 

[Tim Nelson]

1 AirTran Mechanics were not stapled to bottom of our list.
2 Completely wrong. Not a conspiracy at all, facts that actually happened.
3 I do have a clue. TWU (more than half of the members in tyhis asso.) are still living under a BK contract. You are correct that IAM guys are not living any longer with the full BK contract they had not very long ago, but also as you state there are still left over BK items you are living under. I don't know the exact numbers but say 75% is TWU and IAM guys are still under some BK language then I would put it at approx 80% of the members are living under a BK contract, and this is why I called it as such.
4 AMFA has asked for past support from the very groups you ask about, those groups were more than willing to cross AMFA's picket lines, hence the AMFA/NWA fiasco strike.
5 Nor will you ever be.
6 I know you never have asked me to leave. Pretty sad that an outsider knows more than most all the members in this asso. or at least more than what you guys are being told by this asso. actually it's pathetic and embarrassing if you ask me or the majority of your asso. members.
7 Any more questions you need clarified?

Just curious, I thought AMFA talk was dead on American property? It amazes me how AMFA talk somehow creeps back up but it seems to me that it never had enough support to actually file a petition.

 

[anotherdelay]

It would be retarded and anti union if the IAM blows off the picketing, stands down, and refuses to support the TWU picketing. Especially, if the stews and flight attendants join in solidarity. Sad.

BTW, picketing worked for the stews after they were relentless and refused to take Parker at his word that he would not reopen their JCBA for more Cashola. IMO, we should have picketed weeks ago and established a picketing pattern by now. Just for starters. Plus, it would be cool to see NYer and WeAAsles both picketing and exchanging recipes.

Please defer from calling people retarded for not believing in this picket. I'm semi active, and I have no idea what we're picketing. No one knows jack shutter, what's even being negotiated, or what the hold ups are. I just know from high up, and was told point blank, that the longer this takes, the contract, the better off we are. Of course that isn't from the mx side. I'll picket against the iampf.

 

[anotherdelay]

Just curious, I thought AMFA talk was dead on American property? It amazes me how AMFA talk somehow creeps back up but it seems to me that it never had enough support to actually file a petition.

line and overhaul will never be unified. there's your east/west wedge.

 

[swamt]

Ok,
another link from the IAM Pension web site.
http://mypension.iamnpf.org/media/72933/YFYC_April_2014.pdf

This one tells us 2 things:
1. ~ New Hires will be forced into it. I would expect that to be anyone that was hired post merger date.

Here's the pertinent text:
"While the NPP does not allow the exclusion of new hires, please note that we would permit and allow participation of
a new group consisting only of new hires (while excluding those employees still active in a company defined benefit plan that has been frozen to new hires). Contact your Pension Coordinator or the Fund’s Education Department for more information, but remember the National Pension Plan DOES NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OF NEW HIRES."

2. ~ LAA peeps will likely NOT be forced into it, thats right, not a typo, but according to the text here they are saying that could be the case.
Please note the red text above!

So with this information that was posted on their website in April 2014, apparently,
I have to admit, I'm feeling just a bit better about being able to stay OUT of the IAMPF, but I'm not going let my guard down until I see the final text of any TA.

It is blatantly obvious EVERY new hire will be forced into it and NO current IAMPF member will be allowed to exit.

In the end I hope that each and everyone of you have a choice and not forced in, at least this way no one will have anyone to blame but themselves for the outcome. But I am guessing the AA'ers will get forced into it, only because the pensions are hurting so bad for participation.

the more i read about 2017 defined pensions x 401k plans and which is better...the more i realize just how much corporate america/1%ers have hoodwinked the american public. when corporate america can ghostwrite legislation to weaken unions and incentivize companies filing BK to screw blue-collar voters...well, we get what we deserve.

high-5s on the golf course. we have blue-collar workers bragging about the 401k (fund your own pension) and taking companies off the hook for pensions.

let's underfund a pension and then we'll watch them scream to get out of the pension and demand a 401k match. hmmm...instead of paying them $32,000 p/y in retirement, we'll give the majority $4,000 per year in 401k match.

fund your own pension.

i get the part that the nation has changed. i remember in 2013 forbes did a special on it's top 100 companies in 1983 x top 100 companies in 2013.

in 1983, i believe 92 out of the top 100 companies had a defined pension plan.
in 2013, i want to say 4 out of the top 100 had a defined pension plan.

that is the new usa.

I beg to differ sir. Most 401K co's are putting in 5-15% matching part or all dollar for dollar. It will all depend on what this asso. can get nego for the co's contribution part. With our 401 we get anywhere from 10-15k put into our just from the co. match, our part is the same as they match dollar for dollar. A 401 is much cheaper on the co. than the pensions so they can easily increase the matches accordingly. But if this asso. and company are going to try and run with both IAMPF, 401K, as well as still holding the frozen pension at AA it will be extremely hard to get the 401 co. match up near the top end. but I hope you guys really can.

Due to pressure, my understanding is that Sito will offer a letter of support. He may actually offer more than a letter and have the IAM join in on the picket, but he is presently uncomfortable with that idea.

I remain disappointed and imo a letter only is a joke.

Tim, mpo, is a simple letter would be a joke too. He should be putting a committee together for the IAM'ers to sign up and help show support, it would also show great unity. By not showing or allowing the IAM to attend will just show the division amongst the ranks, very bad results for the co. to see.

 

[anotherdelay]

That's an example of why these types of negotiations can take so long. Just in the OT article, there are so many differences that need to be considered. There are many differences and many details that need attention, then on top of that, you have the Company that looks for what they prefer.

In MIA, for instance, we have a set of rules we follow for overtime that expands on our contractual language. All that will go away and I'm sure it will not be popular if we get any of the current IAM language, especially the PTer getting called before a FTer.

i could settle that language in two minutes.

 

[Traymark]

the more i read about 2017 defined pensions x 401k plans and which is better...the more i realize just how much corporate america/1%ers have hoodwinked the american public

let's underfund a pension and then we'll watch them scream to get out of the pension and demand a 401k match. hmmm...instead of paying them $32,000 p/y in retirement, we'll give the majority $4,000 per year in 401k match.

Sorry, That dog won't hunt.
Hoodwinked? Ha, that would be all of those that are happy participants in the IAMPF with ZERO control of their money.

The example you give that I highlighted is wrong. Companies put in a very similar amount to 401K's that they have for pensions. They are ALL invested in the market, thats how they grow to the point of then being able to pay the recipient a larger sum at the end of a number of years in the program.

The difference is they don't have the administration costs with a 401K that they did with pensions, and yes, they don't have to keep 401K's funded at selected levels like a pension, also, those companies also have ZERO control of any of those monies.
100% control of 401K monies goes to the individual.
Control:
Invest as much or as little as you want in whatever you want, aggressive or conservative.
Totally portable if you leave the company.
No strings if you retire early.
All monies can be passed on to family members.

Given how the pension laws have changed, I'll gladly take a 401K over a pension, but what we need to fight for is a much enhanced 401K.
We need to insist on contributions, not a match.
A 9.9% contribution would have netted me over 4X the 4K you quoted in your example last year(yes, I worked a lot of hours)

Any effort to diminish 401K's as being the lesser of retirement vehicles will get a response from me every time.
If used properly, it's easily the best vehicle for many.

 

[Albert]

Tim
You are probably the only LUS in ORD that wants to picket. Picket for what to lose medical and scope?. The TWU people would feel the same if they were in our shoes. You are looking like one of those anarchist dudes

 

[WeAAsles]

it's an easy out to blame members rather than the person who brings the deal and sells it like a snake oil salesman, despite him calling members who said it would happen uninformed or dumb. They downsized CLE before the ink was practically dry.
sorry he played to the fact that unfortunately many members will see that one thing about a deal they like and run to vote for it.
I'l be surprised if many LAA and LUS members don't do the same thing

Question?

When can or should the Membership take blame on anything? If they don't "chose" to educate themselves is that also blame that needs to fall on those who do? Snake oil salesman or not it's still schmucks who buy the oil right?

And your last comment. Surprised? Oh no no no. They are absolutely going to do what you just said by a huge majority. They'll focus like an Eagle right in on that $$Money$$, period, absolutely and unequivocally without question.

 

[anotherdelay]

In the end I hope that each and everyone of you have a choice and not forced in, at least this way no one will have anyone to blame but themselves for the outcome. But I am guessing the AA'ers will get forced into it, only because the pensions are hurting so bad for participation.


I beg to differ sir. Most 401K co's are putting in 5-15% matching part or all dollar for dollar. It will all depend on what this asso. can get nego for the co's contribution part. With our 401 we get anywhere from 10-15k put into our just from the co. match, our part is the same as they match dollar for dollar. A 401 is much cheaper on the co. than the pensions so they can easily increase the matches accordingly. But if this asso. and company are going to try and run with both IAMPF, 401K, as well as still holding the frozen pension at AA it will be extremely hard to get the 401 co. match up near the top end. but I hope you guys really can.


Tim, mpo, is a simple letter would be a joke too. He should be putting a committee together for the IAM'ers to sign up and help show support, it would also show great unity. By not showing or allowing the IAM to attend will just show the division amongst the ranks, very bad results for the co. to see.

Its not a complicated issue, iampf has no shot without massive reductions due to low interest rates. The market could hyperinflate but it is selling at a multiple generally found at bottoms, right now its selling at an insane top mutiple. sucks for us savers, and really sucks for pensions. But still, the trick is dollar cost averaging and balancing. with these raises, and a generous contributions/matches hopefully people will take advantage and just be able to save pre-tax. Geez a 9.9 percent match along with pretax saving.

 

[Albert]

Question?

When can or should the Membership take blame on anything? If they don't "chose" to educate themselves is that also blame that needs to fall on those who do? Snake oil salesman or not it's still schmucks who buy the oil right?

And your last comment. Surprised? Oh no no no. They are absolutely going to do what you just said by a huge majority. They'll focus like an Eagle right in on that $$Money$$, period, absolutely and unequivocally without question.

I don't know Weez the money is already here nothing spectacular coming our way so maybe we will pay more attention the other stuff

 

[WeAAsles]

Tim
You are probably the only LUS in ORD that wants to picket. Picket for what to lose medical and scope?. The TWU people would feel the same if they were in our shoes. You are looking like one of those anarchist dudes

Tim Nelson a Looney Tune, Crazy, Off the Wall, Fruit Loopy, Anarchist?

No No No, Not at all, No.

 

[swamt]

It would be retarded and anti union if the IAM blows off the picketing, stands down, and refuses to support the TWU picketing. Especially, if the stews and flight attendants join in solidarity. Sad.

BTW, picketing worked for the stews after they were relentless and refused to take Parker at his word that he would not reopen their JCBA for more Cashola. IMO, we should have picketed weeks ago and established a picketing pattern by now. Just for starters. Plus, it would be cool to see NYer and WeAAsles both picketing and exchanging recipes.

Yes it would be anti union. Just think how bad it would look for not only your Pilots and F/A's showing support, but how about an outside enity not even on your property----AMFA Mechanics from another airline...

Just curious, I thought AMFA talk was dead on American property? It amazes me how AMFA talk somehow creeps back up but it seems to me that it never had enough support to actually file a petition.

AMFA talk has been dead. When the teamsters filed (just before AMFA was fixin to file with the correct amount of cards) that blocked AMFA for 1 or 2 years from filing. Then the teamsters pulled their filing as they were caught red handed with forgeries and they (teamsters) never had the correct number of cards it was simply a move to block AMFA from filing with the correct number of cards. Then the co. returned the verifies list of TWU members names and contacts to the NMB in a record 4 hours after the teamsters filed theirs, this was the final straw on AMFA getting blocked to file as AMFA could have filed to also submit as long as AA hasn't filed the list with the NMB, hence the record timing of any company ever in history to supply the NMB with said list in 4-6 hours. And this is where you get the part when I say collusion from AA, teamsters, TWU, IAM, asso., as well as a little from the NMB. This final move made a lot of guys walk away from trying to keep the cards current for more years to file later and that is what finally killed the AMFA drive at AA, they just gave up. The key to all this is look how far the TWU, IAM, asso., as well as AA will go to never allow AMFA to even file at AA, speaks volumes brother, VOLUMES.

 

[WeAAsles]

Its not a complicated issue, iampf has no shot without massive reductions due to low interest rates. The market could hyperinflate but it is selling at a multiple generally found at bottoms, right now its selling at an insane top mutiple. sucks for us savers, and really sucks for pensions. But still, the trick is dollar cost averaging and balancing. with these raises, and a generous contributions/matches hopefully people will take advantage and just be able to save pre-tax. Geez a 9.9 percent match along with pretax saving.

I'm going to jump into it just because of how annoying you all are.

And a hunch that doing the opposite of what many of you think is going to work out gangbusters for me.

Opposite George meets Opposite Dave.