JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[WeAAsles]

755 Million was set aside for disputed claims. But right now at least we don't know if AMR had to utilize any of those funds?

Still digging for that answer?

http://docket_pdfs.gcg.net/aam/11-15463/12825_15463.pdf

 

[NYer]

the ruling sounds exciting and i realize that the amount in this kitty is nearly 10xs more than the money in the equity/retiree case.....but:

- i'm surprised that the intl. didn't post a bit more informational q&a bulletin immediately after the ruling. as if, the twu's lawyers haven't told the twu what the monetary potential of winning this lawsuit consists of?

worst case scenario looks as though we are owed apprx. 1-2 shares for every $1k in equity we received. most ft guys with 25 or so years (at the time) were to get some $8k in equity. does this mean we will get 8-16 more shares?

if so, then was it worth the case where we get 8 more shares and bank of america gets $500 million as one of the 'movants'??

that is worst case scenario and i pray i'm wrong.

of course, we had a union meeting in ord that other day and this was brought up and the reply in so many words was, "it won't be much".

The potential is unknown since the case is still ongoing and Claims are still being processed. The significance of this ruling is to ensure the unions still get the percentage of the leftover funds that was agreed to with the Creditors Committee. The actual numbers that will involve are currently unknown since the bankruptcy case is still open and processing claims.

Keep in mind, the formula you're referencing is the totality of the claims to be received by each creditor such as each union. However, the methodology used by the TWU to distribute those shares to us uses a different and separate formula. You can't actually use the same "$1,000 in equity" formula to try and figure out how much every one may receive after the Disputed Claim Reserve is distributed.

 

[robbedagain]

bob thanks for the station list you did a great job with that.

 

[Albert]

bob thanks for the station list you did a great job with that.

He would have got it done sooner but when he plugged his laptop in to recharge he didnt realize the outlet was connected to a wall switch that was in the off position

 

[bob@las-AA]

- while being laid off from us air/iam position, did affected employee(s) lose seniority? if they didn't lose seniority, they have an inherent advantage as aa/twu laid off employees did lose seniority. --"Furloughed Fleet Service employees accrue and retain seniority for four years, but lose all seniority if not recalled during that time"..."Furloughed Mechanic and Related employees continue to accrue seniority for five years after which they retain, but do not accrue additional seniority."

- through the years of legacy us air mergers & acquisitions, or hiring from a piedmont/allegheny airline into legacy us air, did affected new legacy us air employee get to keep half or any of their former seniority? if so, they have an inherent advantage as legacy aa employees that were former polishers/sky chef/building cleaners/amr/fuelers (prior to 1991)/eagle/reno air...did not get to keep any seniority (only company). --"In the past, the contractual rules regarding seniority accrual and retention were different at the two pre-merger Carriers. In addition, in some instances, different seniority rules or practices applied to different employee groups at each pre-merger Carrier. Citing these past differences in seniority treatment, I received a number of employee comments requesting that I adjust the seniority dates for certain groups or individuals in order to negate the effect of past differences in seniority rules. A sizeable number of employees suggested that I simply integrate the work groups according to hire dates in order to place all employees on an equal footing. Although I understand why employees would advocate for these adjustments, as I explain below, the seniority integration process cannot be a vehicle for re-writing history."

The comments submitted to me focused on several differences in seniority accrual among the pre-merger work groups. Some commentators pointed out that LUS employees could move between some work classifications without any loss in seniority, whereas LAA employees who made similar moves were only able to retain seniority in a prior classification for a limited time or not at all. Others pointed to the fact that furloughed LUS employees continued to accrue seniority for longer periods of time while on furlough that LAA employees. Other commentators complained that seniority credit for time spent working at subsidiary LUS and LAA carriers had been applied inconsistently in the past with some employees receiving credit for such time and others not. I also received comments from some LUS Fleet Service employees who complained that prior to 1999 part-time Fleet employees only received 50% credit for time worked for seniority purposes. While this rule was changed subsequently through collective bargaining, the change only applied prospectively. As a result, some Fleet Service employees affected by the 50% rule asked that I now go back and retroactively give them 100% credit for their part-time service."

"While I appreciate why employees have requested adjustments in their seniority date to account for different seniority treatment in the past, there are several reasons why it would be inappropriate for me to grant such requests."

"First, the past accrual of seniority was the result of the parties’ collective bargaining agreements or company policies. It is not my role during the seniority integration process to sit in judgment of these agreements or policies after-the-fact and decide which believe were proper and which were not. Moreover, as previously discussed, seniority in the airline industry is a zero-sum endeavor, with one person’s gain being another person’s loss. If I were to add seniority to individuals who were not credited with it in the past, this would have a negative impact on everyone who I placed after them on the seniority list. In addition, retroactively altering the seniority dates of thousands of employees to adjust for events that may have occurred decades ago is nearly impossible as a practical matter, not just in terms of time constraints, but also because complete records are no longer available in many instances. Any attempt to reconstruct work histories would be based largely on estimates and guesswork, which is hardly fair or equitable in a matter as important as seniority integration."

"Moreover, even if accurate records did exist for every single employee, adjusting seniority for all of these purposes would result in a major re-shuffling of the seniority order currently in place for each pre-merger group, including at stations that are populated only by LAA or LUS employees that would not otherwise be immediately impacted by the seniority integration. Finally, past decisions that impacted seniority -- for example,decisions about whether to transfer among positions, work in management, or take a personal leave -- were made based on the seniority practices in existence at the time and retroactively changing them now would be grossly unfair to other employees who also made decisions in reliance on the practices in place at the time."

He would have got it done sooner but when he plugged his laptop in to recharge he didnt realize the outlet was connected to a wall switch that was in the off position

Good one

 

[bob@las-AA]

bob thanks for the station list you did a great job with that.

You welcome sir.

 

[charlie Brown]

as an aa twu employee, i have 2 concerns with this seniority integration process....that only iam/legacy us air people can help with:

- while being laid off from us air/iam position, did affected employee(s) lose seniority? if they didn't lose seniority, they have an inherent advantage as aa/twu laid off employees did lose seniority.

- through the years of legacy us air mergers & acquisitions, or hiring from a piedmont/allegheny airline into legacy us air, did affected new legacy us air employee get to keep half or any of their former seniority? if so, they have an inherent advantage as legacy aa employees that were former polishers/sky chef/building cleaners/amr/fuelers (prior to 1991)/eagle/reno air...did not get to keep any seniority (only company).

speaking to a few legacy us air employees prior to and after the merger, this is what i was told. of course, i can't rely on what joe lunchbox fsc tells me, i'm hoping that some of the iam negotiators that post here (p rez/charlie brown), can confirm or deny.

unfortunately but understandably, i have found that after nearly 30 years, most legacy aa employees would throw a party knowing that a coworker they have known for 30 years won't pass them up in seniority....while potentially, after this blended seniority list, dozens of us air employees will now pass them up after accumulating seniority in ways that you could not accumulate seniority at legacy aa. if this is true, i find this very unfair, but not sure if this is javits' job to sift through and either add seniority to various legacy aa employees or take away seniority from various legacy us air employees.

i thank anyone in advance for information.

The easiest way for me to explain the seniority results from Javitz, is that he basically took whatever the two airlines seniority system was and integrated them. He made no changes to the AA system of losing time for furlough, or the US system of only getting half credit for their PT days. Yes AA agents can argue that they lost time with furlough, and yes US can argue they lost time with only getting half credit for PT. This is the main reaso Javitz told us that he wasn't going back and " unscramble the egg " . Bottom line is, that this process is done, and both sides have their arguments. It's a lose lose either way you go with it. But keep in mind, we are all reaping the benefits of this merger also, and we will in the future once we get our jcba.

 

[lax]

Bottom line is, that this process is done, and both sides have their arguments. It's a lose lose either way you go with it. But keep in mind, we are all reaping the benefits of this merger also, and we will in the future once we get our jcba.

Oh yea the aa guys are just swimming in the spoils of this merger.

The ass crack assoc shoved down their throats without a vote.

The iam leading the charge, which could care less about the desires of the majority.

A bankruptcy contract with no end in sight.

Two hubs the company can’t wait to downsize, which btw is when iam will decide the time is right for a tentative agreement.

So called negotiators that spend more time in Vegas strip clubs than at the negotiating table.

Yep I see your point, the aa guys are carrying around bags full of gold thanks to this merger…

 

[CremaDiLimone]

i'd like to thank all who responded.

regardless of anyone's aa company x occupational time, it's painfully obvious that twu members got shafted..including the twu members grinning that their twu coworkers didn't get their company time and passed them up. there are plenty of iam legacy us air workers who have indeed passed those who are grinning. it may not bite them now in some obscure station, but the chance always exists of a transfer.

when i say shafted, i don't blame javits nor the association. the seeds were planted years ago and it appears the iam did a better job in this regard than the twu. i have read some posters criticizing the association ("the ass") and i wonder what planet some of these posters live on. it's 2016, not 1956. times have changed and unions don't have a leg to stand on anymore.

as far as javits - he can save his pontius pilate "i didn't do anything, my hands are clean" spiel because he did change some seniority - for those already benefiting from advantageous seniority rules.

i have heard plenty of criticism of the twu through the years, especially now a days, and maybe it is true that the twu is a much better bus drivers' union...protecting ralph kramden's seniority, but not giving a flying banana peel about fsc joe lunchbox's seniority.

i can't believe the twu didn't see this coming, pre-merger, and didn't move to protect thousands of due-paying members. shameful. if i'm the twu, no merger unless the twu gets more equity and a fairer seniority integration. too late now.

- bob@las: i said the kitty is 10xs the amount of the other equity case. i didn't say the twu stands to gain apprx. $750 million/ apprx.18+ million shares. there were articles about this case from last feb., when american said they planned on dispersing the apprx. $750 million back to the shareholders. the unions & bank of america then stepped in and sued. it's was the pilot's union that made the biggest public stink about this at the time.

i take it that there were/are no more bk claims because american was already going public with what they intended to do with this windfall.

- weaasles: as mentioned, i believe sean lane signed off on the bk claims and american was hot to give this equity back to the shareholders. yes, i know elvira and no, i have not discussed this with him.

- nyer: thanks for isolating and posting the relevant comments from mr. javits about the seniority integraton. i'm starting to believe if i told mr. javits that i made a piedmont model toy airplane in 1978, i might get 3 months added to my seniority...maybe 6 months if it was a us air model plane.

- charlie brown: thanks for taking the time out to respond. i understand and can lump javits' decision, though i would never consider the overall situation fair, let alone 'fair and equitable'. again, i blame the twu for this.

good luck in negotiations. get as much back from the company for them wanting the crew chiefs to work and work on getting regional service in major hubs, ala united. that in itself, would take much sting out of the seniority decision.

cheers to all

 

[WeAAsles]

Oh yea the aa guys are just swimming in the spoils of this merger.

The ass crack assoc shoved down their throats without a vote.

The iam leading the charge, which could care less about the desires of the majority.

A bankruptcy contract with no end in sight.

Two hubs the company can’t wait to downsize, which btw is when iam will decide the time is right for a tentative agreement.

So called negotiators that spend more time in Vegas strip clubs than at the negotiating table.

Yep I see your point, the aa guys are carrying around bags full of gold thanks to this merger…

Ok man I'm just not getting any of this? If you look on the TWU webpage under contracts on our wages showing for XX/XX/2012 you see us making $21.16 TOS. But since everything has progressed we're now at $30.17 TOS.

$9.00 x 40 x 4 = $1440.00
$1440.00 x 12 = $17,280 per year.

That jump happened all in the past 4 years.

Yea our medical costs stink on the AA side but except for the top tier plan the two other plan costs didn't go up at all next year and we just got a raise that went into effect giving us $925.00 per month before taxes.

Even if someone kept the top tier medical which went up by 10% the max raise in cost on that was only $60.00 per month.

I'm sorry man but the rant is just too weird.

Absolutely not exactly a State secret that the IAM negotiators don't want to go with our medical at the costs we pay. Why should they want to and do you think they should just jump to bring that back to their members so we can get a little more in Holliday pay?

Right now we're locked in to our medical for next year whether we like it or not. If they got us a deal on Jan 1 nothing is going to change that. Hopefully they can get us a deal though before next years benefits enrollment? But right now I wouldn't exactly say or try to claim that we're starving. People that read here are going to laugh at us if we tried to make that claim.

 

[WeAAsles]

The easiest way for me to explain the seniority results from Javitz, is that he basically took whatever the two airlines seniority system was and integrated them. He made no changes to the AA system of losing time for furlough, or the US system of only getting half credit for their PT days. Yes AA agents can argue that they lost time with furlough, and yes US can argue they lost time with only getting half credit for PT. This is the main reaso Javitz told us that he wasn't going back and " unscramble the egg " . Bottom line is, that this process is done, and both sides have their arguments. It's a lose lose either way you go with it. But keep in mind, we are all reaping the benefits of this merger also, and we will in the future once we get our jcba.

I'm not so sure that the AA guys side should say that this is a lose lose for the average seniority member?

I looked at the TWU system seniority the other day and with my 21 years and 51 in age I was pretty much just at the 50% mark of the full pack of 10,000 members. Before the merger we had around 8,000 and I still wasn't at that 50% mark.

Now absolutely not to put your guys down but I already knew from multiple conversations that your side by average had less industry time then we did.

Out of around 7000 US IAM members I have over 5000 of those under me in seniority.

Of course I think your perspective when conversing on this board is towards your IAM members but you have to consider that when you comment here you're being read by members on both sides.

Now the fact that with the merger I'm going up well over the 50% mark for the total may never affect me here in MIA anyway of course it does give this (Association) member a bit more sense of security then I had last week. But of course I also hope that the dynamics of the merger which is earning this company Billions in profits per year can also give members a sense of security who are closer to the bottom (Right now) then they'd like to be.

But hey we all move up that ladder eventually over time.

Happy New Year Bro.

 

[AANOTOK]

Hey W, in regards to the lax comment and your reply, if you look at the big picture, sure we got a nice bump in pay, but in reality we got back money that was taken years ago and then given a bump of where we should be. But let's go even bigger picture, AA has made Billions, that is with "B", yet we still work under a contract where AA retains everything they took from us, everything except money. And again, I wasn't given a great raise, I was given back what I had rightfully earned plus a little more. The airlines who never cut their employees pay and make more than I have been given good raises. Anyway, back to the cherry picking. You don't mention shift differential, you don't mention Holidays, vacations, scope etc...things AA took and continue to keep. Yes, lax has a right to complain, we have lost so many things that have not been returned and probably will not be. And yes, lax has a right to question Charlie Browns comment of "we are all reaping in the benefits of this merger", we are not. The merger as mentioned above, has given back lost wages for ALL, but on the AA side you would find it hard to list anything else it has done. In reality, the merger has kept AA employees locked into a bankruptcy contract and allowed the LUS employees to continue to enjoy a contract that that we on the AA side would take in a second over ours.
And another Association tidbit, while I do believe AA is dragging it's feet, make no mistake, the Association has its own little battles that are muddying the waters as well.

And to Mr CremaDiLimone, I would actually have to ask you what planet you live on if you think the negative comments here directed at the "Ass" are in error. If you like getting lied to, if you like a system being setup where conflict will always be an issue, if you like a negotiation pace reflecting snails speed,
and if you like an organization formed to protect the money grab for it's top earners under the cover "it's in your best interest" or "power in numbers" verbiage, then it's obvious, you are from the Association planet.

Now, to you both, nothing short of an industry leading contract for both the IAM and TWU members will help the Association gain traction in many of it's members eyes, especially on the AA side. But at the current pace, I'm damn sure not gonna hold my breath.

 

[WeAAsles]

Hey W, in regards to the lax comment and your reply, if you look at the big picture, sure we got a nice bump in pay, but in reality we got back money that was taken years ago and then given a bump of where we should be. But let's go even bigger picture, AA has made Billions, that is with "B", yet we still work under a contract where AA retains everything they took from us, everything except money. And again, I wasn't given a great raise, I was given back what I had rightfully earned plus a little more. The airlines who never cut their employees pay and make more than I have been given good raises. Anyway, back to the cherry picking. You don't mention shift differential, you don't mention Holidays, vacations, scope etc...things AA took and continue to keep. Yes, lax has a right to complain, we have lost so many things that have not been returned and probably will not be. And yes, lax has a right to question Charlie Browns comment of "we are all reaping in the benefits of this merger", we are not. The merger as mentioned above, has given back lost wages for ALL, but on the AA side you would find it hard to list anything else it has done. In reality, the merger has kept AA employees locked into a bankruptcy contract and allowed the LUS employees to continue to enjoy a contract that that we on the AA side would take in a second over ours.
And another Association tidbit, while I do believe AA is dragging it's feet, make no mistake, the Association has its own little battles that are muddying the waters as well.

And to Mr CremaDiLimone, I would actually have to ask you what planet you live on if you think the negative comments here directed at the "Ass" are in error. If you like getting lied to, if you like a system being setup where conflict will always be an issue, if you like a negotiation pace reflecting snails speed,
and if you like an organization formed to protect the money grab for it's top earners under the cover "it's in your best interest" or "power in numbers" verbiage, then it's obvious, you are from the Association planet.

Now, to you both, nothing short of an industry leading contract for both the IAM and TWU members will help the Association gain traction in many of it's members eyes, especially on the AA side. But at the current pace, I'm damn sure not gonna hold my breath.

AANOTOK while I respect your opinion I absolutely don't agree with it. I personally watched family and friends get crucified over the years since September 11. I've read even more stories of people Globally getting slammed all over the place. I watched other major airlines like Pan Am, and Eastern fold. TWA go out of business, there Pensions destroyed. NWA fold into Delta and they all lost their Unions and now are being overrun by Ready Reserve and they're higher payed ranks being canned for BS reasons.

USair gone through multiple bankruptcies and only barely survived to make it to this point by the skin of their teeth.

And then yes there is us. In comparison we made out like golden children even with the things we lost. Frozen or not how many clerks in our industry can still say they have their Pensions?

Am I saying that I don't want more. Of course not. Am I saying the Association or even the idea of it was/is perfect. No. But the only ones when I look around out there to compare myself too with clear eyes have done a whole hell of a lot worse than I have in the last 15 years and many of them still haven't recovered yet.

So excuse me for being flippant about our current situation but Woop De Doo. We'll get the iceing for our cake soon enough.

 

[WeAAsles]

The only airline people that made it through pretty much unscathed were mostly TWU represented SWA members.

Ok I guess out of all the Major airlines I filled out the second best application for a job that was out there?

C'est La Vie.

 

[bob@las-AA]

Oh yea the aa guys are just swimming in the spoils of this merger.

The ass crack assoc shoved down their throats without a vote.

The iam leading the charge, which could care less about the desires of the majority.

A bankruptcy contract with no end in sight.

Two hubs the company can’t wait to downsize, which btw is when iam will decide the time is right for a tentative agreement.

So called negotiators that spend more time in Vegas strip clubs than at the negotiating table.

Yep I see your point, the aa guys are carrying around bags full of gold thanks to this merger…

And just what do you mean by bags full of gold, explain yourself.