JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[bob@las-AA]

Bob,

I think you misread what I posted. AA in LAS is grossly overstaffed now, not 2-3 years ago when you were there. As it stands presently, I have been informed there are about equal number of people in terms of FTEs on both AA and US sides in LAS, but US has been handling twice the number of flights. Simple example as I have been told is that part-time AA agents, 4-hour shifts during the day are responsible for 1 turn and 1 terminator and the 4-hour night shift would work just 2 terminators. Does not strike me as much in the way of available work for the number of flights.

Ok, that sounds more like it. Sorry for the rant but that was my home once.

 

[Talos]

Who, in your opinion, decides which is the best language?

And once you get past that, you assume the Company will just accept the best language without input?

It is complicated because it is inevitable we end up with a hybrid of each CBA in order to get an agreement.

 

[Talos]

I would not assume the company would accept anything without their view put in the discussion. It's just too complicated to do business like this with the two groups. It's bad business frankly. Makes you wonder what will happen when they start discussing major topics like scope.

 

[bob@las-AA]

Try to forget on how rough some of you think you have it, and think of those who have really have had a tougher. This kids at this years snowball express, benefiting the kids that lost a parent in the military.

 

[NYer]

I would not assume the company would accept anything without their view put in the discussion. It's just too complicated to do business like this with the two groups. It's bad business frankly. Makes you wonder what will happen when they start discussing major topics like Scope.

The issue isn't necessarily the two groups. They should have been better prepared to start these negotiations, and we also need to realize the fact we have two very different CBA's with different language and cultures. Those are issues that need to be addressed regardless of whether there was an Association or one union walking into these negotiations.

The other groups were able to get their deals, and they had similar challenges.

 

[WeAAsles]

The issue isn't necessarily the two groups. They should have been better prepared to start these negotiations, and we also need to realize the fact we have two very different CBA's with different language and cultures. Those are issues that need to be addressed regardless of whether there was an Association or one union walking into these negotiations.

The other groups were able to get their deals, and they had similar challenges.

You continue to say over and over that "they" should have been better prepared? Perhaps? But you tell me how anyone can prepare for ideological differences? From just reading IAM contracts and TWU contracts alone we can see fundamental differences that can't necessarily be solved no matter how long the preparation.

Plus I think you negate the input of the company who doesn't always agree with either ideology.

Also you are well aware that there have been grumbling in all 3 large groups who secured their deals maybe too soon. The Pilots being the biggest losers since they are now 4th in pay and will have to wait at least 3 more years and probably longer to regain perhaps the top spot.

Parker recently publicly told their Union NO. He will no longer play leap frog. A top pay 777 Captain is now under his Delta counterpart by $100,000 per year in pay and benefits. Now you can times that by 3 or maybe even 5 more years depending on the business weather in that future. That's a massive loss as we all continue to age.

At this moment now at least in BASE wages we are at the top of the heap. Delta has announced their raise that won't take effect until next April and even then base wise its a few pennies short of us. So long term right now our compensation package is good.

Being well aware of the members who still commute and would like very much the chance to maybe go home permanently. The majority are in a good place right now. It is the TWU side that right now is waiting for the icing on top of a very nice cake.

Again how would you have solved those ideological differences? Are you really so naive to think it's such an easy task?

Tell me precisely what would have been solved with 6 months or even a year extra of talk, talk, talk?

 

[NYer]

You continue to say over and over that "they" should have been better prepared? Perhaps? But you tell me how anyone can prepare for ideological differences? From just reading IAM contracts and TWU contracts alone we can see fundamental differences that can't necessarily be solved no matter how long the preparation.

Plus I think you negate the input of the company who doesn't always agree with either ideology.

Also you are well aware that there have been grumbling in all 3 large groups who secured their deals maybe too soon. The Pilots being the biggest losers since they are now 4th in pay and will have to wait at least 3 more years and probably longer to regain perhaps the top spot.

Parker recently publicly told their Union NO. He will no longer play leap frog. A top pay 777 Captain is now under his Delta counterpart by $100,000 per year in pay and benefits. Now you can times that by 3 or maybe even 5 more years depending on the business weather in that future. That's a massive loss as we all continue to age.

At this moment now at least in BASE wages we are at the top of the heap. Delta has announced their raise that won't take effect until next April and even then base wise its a few pennies short of us. So long term right now our compensation package is good.

Being well aware of the members who still commute and would like very much the chance to maybe go home permanently. The majority are in a good place right now. It is the TWU side that right now is waiting for the icing on top of a very nice cake.

Again how would you have solved those ideological differences? Are you really so naive to think it's such an easy task?

Tell me precisely what would have been solved with 6 months or even a year extra of talk, talk, talk?

Where you are in the pay comparisons with everyone else, it is always a changing level. If everyone waited for everyone else, then we would get nowhere. Yes, the pilots wished they could get a bump from where they are, but at the same time, they became the industry target as it continues to move to higher levels. It is easy enough to see how the pilot salaries wouldn't be where they are today if the pilots at AA didn't get their industry leading contract when they did. Leap-frogging is just a mechanism of how we go higher, and once someone reaches that level, they become the target for everyone else.

Being able to sit at a table and reach a consensus with your peers without having a gun to your head is really a much better way to reach a consensus. Going into negotiations takes prep work, cooperation and an understanding of each others position. Turning down an invitation to start that process in November of 2014, did us more damage as they had to quickly get together in June of 2015 and start the process from two distinctly different places in their histories.

You thought this was going to be over by now, when it seems it will take another long period of time unless the Company throws a take it or leave it proposal on the table and we sit until the two CBA's open in 2018.

 

[WeAAsles]

Where you are in the pay comparisons with everyone else, it is always a changing level. If everyone waited for everyone else, then we would get nowhere. Yes, the pilots wished they could get a bump from where they are, but at the same time, they became the industry target as it continues to move to higher levels. It is easy enough to see how the pilot salaries wouldn't be where they are today if the pilots at AA didn't get their industry leading contract when they did. Leap-frogging is just a mechanism of how we go higher, and once someone reaches that level, they become the target for everyone else.

Being able to sit at a table and reach a consensus with your peers without having a gun to your head is really a much better way to reach a consensus. Going into negotiations takes prep work, cooperation and an understanding of each others position. Turning down an invitation to start that process in November of 2014, did us more damage as they had to quickly get together in June of 2015 and start the process from two distinctly different places in their histories.

You thought this was going to be over by now, when it seems it will take another long period of time unless the Company throws a take it or leave it proposal on the table and we sit until the two CBA's open in 2018.

Although it probably is an over exaggeration the Middle East has had ideological differences going back over 1000 years. The idea of peace in the Middle East is nothing more than a Politicians scam.

Take you and I as another example. We haven't seen eye to eye on much for years now. Politics, ego and emotions have clouded any better judgement you might have.

You argued to leave the Shift Swap in managements hands. Do you think you would have been able to convince the IAM negotiators to go along with that? Absolutely 100% not. So would you have capitulated your position and conceded? I extremely doubt it. So who would have bent first? (Ideological differences)

Anyway since there are two TWU chairs opening in January and you're the next in line and most senior qualified person to sit in one, I'll expect you to break past any logjams that exist between the Company, the IAM and the TWU and succeed in expediting the process to a satisfactory conclusion.

I wish you excellent success for all of us.

 

[NYer]

Although it probably is an over exaggeration the Middle East has had ideological differences going back over 1000 years. The idea of peace in the Middle East is nothing more than a Politicians scam.

Take you and I as another example. We haven't seen eye to eye on much for years now. Politics, ego and emotions have clouded any better judgement you might have.

You argued to leave the Shift Swap in managements hands. Do you think you would have been able to convince the IAM negotiators to go along with that? Absolutely 100% not. So would you have capitulated your position and conceded? I extremely doubt it. So who would have bent first? (Ideological differences)

Anyway since there are two TWU chairs opening in January and you're the next in line and most senior qualified person to sit in one, I'll expect you to break past any logjams that exist between the Company, the IAM and the TWU and succeed in expediting the process to a satisfactory conclusion.

I wish you excellent success for all of us.

Middle East?

Don't recall arguing to leave Shift Swaps in management's hands, but go ahead and preach that if you feel the need. The situation we are in today, is not because of Shift Swaps as that seems to have changed little and we don't think it will negatively impact most.

To get agreements there needs to be bending from all sides involved and for there to be bending there needs to be an understanding as to why certain things are important as well as holding stock of the history experienced by each side. That understanding is better reached in an atmosphere of cooperation, not in the craziness of ongoing negotiations where the emotions of the situation can get in the way of the spirit of cooperation.

Those chairs aren't filled by seniority. Ideally, you'd hope there would be little change to the current makeup of the Negotiating Committee as doing so may stretch out the proceedings even longer than they have already taken.

 

[WeAAsles]

Middle East?

Don't recall arguing to leave Shift Swaps in management's hands, but go ahead and preach that if you feel the need. The situation we are in today, is not because of Shift Swaps as that seems to have changed little and we don't think it will negatively impact most.

To get agreements there needs to be bending from all sides involved and for there to be bending there needs to be an understanding as to why certain things are important as well as holding stock of the history experienced by each side. That understanding is better reached in an atmosphere of cooperation, not in the craziness of ongoing negotiations where the emotions of the situation can get in the way of the spirit of cooperation.

Those chairs aren't filled by seniority. Ideally, you'd hope there would be little change to the current makeup of the Negotiating Committee as doing so may stretch out the proceedings even longer than they have already taken.

You 100% did argue about leaving the CS in the hands of management due to your feeling that it would be more flexible (arse kiss) that way. I keep a very detailed and subcategorized archive on you now. Anyway that's all irrelevant.

Anyway the rest of what you wrote except for the last paragraph sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo soap box fluff to me. A Politicians jargon.

Your last comment ideally yes. But Pete Hogan has lost interest and didn't run again and is already gone. And Brian Oyer was overwhelmingly voted on by his members to suspend his Presidential activities in favor of William Fa.

So no, now you are the most senior qualified individual to sit in one of those chairs and I expect you to show the initiative you have been railing against since this all began. Put your money where your mouth is. Unless you want to try and sell excuses?

Go and perform the Constitutional duty that you're compensated by your members for.

 

[NYer]

You 100% did argue about leaving the CS in the hands of management due to your feeling that it would be more flexible (arse kiss) that way. I keep a very detailed and subcategorized archive on you now. Anyway that's all irrelevant.

Anyway the rest of what you wrote except for the last paragraph sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo soap box fluff to me. A Politicians jargon.

Your last comment ideally yes. But Pete Hogan has lost interest and didn't run again and is already gone. And Brian Oyer was overwhelmingly voted on by his members to suspend his Presidential activities in favor of William Fa.

So no, now you are the most senior qualified individual to sit in one of those chairs and I expect you to show the initiative you have been railing against since this all began. Put your money where your mouth is. Unless you want to try and sell excuses?

Go and perform the Constitutional duty that you're compensated by your members for.

OK. If you say so.

No one is arguing against the work that is has been done in the negotiations, as a matter of fact, I've been on these boards sharing my point of view that things are much different in that arena than what they seem from afar.

My point has always been that we didn't prepare as we should have and we are now paying for that by having this process take longer than it may have otherwise taken.

The Association Constitution doesn't call for a President to be on the Negotiating Committee, so it is possible to have participants on that Committee that aren't necessarily Local Presidents. Therefore, you may be putting the cart before the horse and making assumptions that may not bear out as you believe.

 

[WeAAsles]

OK. If you say so.

No one is arguing against the work that is being done in the negotiations, as a matter of fact, I've been on these boards sharing my point of view that things are much different in that arena than what they seem from afar.

My point has always been that we didn't prepare as we should have and we are now paying for that by having this process take longer than is may not necessarily have taken otherwise.

The Association Constitution doesn't call for a President to be on the Negotiating Committee so it is possible to participants on that Committee that aren't necessarily Local Presidents. Therefore, you may be putting the cart before the horse.

Of course the Association has its own autonomy in direct conflict with our Constitution. I'm well aware of that and even reminded a mutual friend of ours of that fact. But what you are NOT factoring in is that Brian was soundly defeated by William Fa. As a matter of fact the numbers Fa received almost matched all three other candidates combined. What assurances do you have that Brian would even want to continue under those circumstances?

Fa has a Masters degree in Labor Negotiations and is even a Negotiator for Tarrant County Tx. It appears to me as if his members really want him to sit in a chair for them. And again Pete Hogan has left the building.

The negotiators themselves are the ones that Harry tasked with making the decision for who sits in those chairs and I'm very very strongly advocating that it should be YOU!!!!

But it does seem to me from your response that you are trying to weasel your way out of having to take on that responsibility?

If you don't feel like you're up to the task or don't want to do it, then just say so and we'll move on?

Of course it is much easier throwing rocks from afar rather than taking the risk you might get hit yourself by one.

 

[NYer]

What assurances do you have that Brian would even want to continue under those circumstances? --I don't.

Fa has a Masters degree in Labor Negotiations and is even a Negotiator for Tarrant County Tx. It appears to me as if his members really want him to sit in a chair for them. And again Pete Hogan has left the building. --The current Association guideline for forming a Negotiating Committee doesn't specify consideration to any particular set of qualifications or the need to hold any particular position, whether elected or not.

The negotiators themselves are the ones that Harry tasked with making the decision for who sits in those chairs and I'm very very strongly advocating that it should be YOU!!!! --You don't get to make that call.

But it does seem to me from your response that you are trying to weasel your way out of having to take on that responsibility? --If asked, it is my duty to serve and I would participate with no hesitation.

If you don't feel like you're up to the task or don't want to do it, then just say so and we'll move on? --You, not I, has been the proponent that I not be allowed near those proceedings.

Of course it is much easier throwing rocks from afar rather than taking the risk you might get hit yourself by one. --No, it is much easier to throw rocks while not participating in having to make decisions that affect thousands on a daily basis, such as a blogger.

 

[WeAAsles]

On the one hand you say it's not my call to select (And you're 100% right) and on the other hand you say that I've been a strong proponent to keep you out which implies I have some influence?

Make up your mind. Which one is it?

I'll expand some more on your answers when I have some free time.

 

[Albert]

On the one hand you say it's not my call to select (And you're 100% right) and on the other hand you say that I've been a strong proponent to keep you out which implies I have some influence?

Make up your mind. Which one is it?

I'll expand some more on your answers when I have some free time.

Weez the polar vortex is hitting NY at the end of the week. I think I'll head to MIA you guys need a referee