JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[NYer]

With 12 people in the room negotiating there's no way to get all those people 100% on the same page. Too many people with too many different personalities and ideologies. As much as I despised the idea behind the "Roll Call" vote I think I've come to understand why it can become an important part of keeping the process moving. Plus I don't think they incorporated Roberts Rules of Order which is another method to moving the process along?

I really wish at this point in the process they could move down to 6 negotiators. But I'm sure the Politics unfortunately will prevent that from happening.

That is why it was so important to get everyone on the same page, while the NMB made their decision, rather than waiting on the sidelines and not working towards a mutual understanding. The philosophies weren't hashed out before the actual negotiating process took hold. Now, they must try to do that while also trying to deal with the Company.

The hardest part about this entire process was to ensure all the issues were prioritized from the very beginning and understanding the biggest pitfalls was going to come for the Brothers & Sisters at the IAM, simply because they hold the biggest chips the Company still wants to modify, which is their Scope and their Medical.

Sure, there are other parts of the process that need attention and are important but in negotiations the outcome is seldom a one sided bonanza, but a mutual give and take. We needed to work on each others priorities before this process even started and there was more than enough time to have done that work.

From November 2014 to June 2015, time wasted that we are now paying for.

 

[Albert]

I really would like to see those guys directly in the room finish it up to the end all the way. But if there is any stonewalling or shenanigans going on purposely to make the process drag out as long as possible to hold on to things or someone just likes staying in Hotels and racking up those Hotel points, I'd then like to hope the Leaders have an end date where it comes down to enough is enough?

The average negotiations for most of the other groups was around 10 months. We're now at a year and there are still heavy items that haven't even been discussed yet.

There's a difference between the process being frustrating and it starting to get a little ridiculous. I can't stand when the company nickel and dimes us but at the same time I think I can afford to purchase my own work shoes. (And no I'm not saying that anyone is arguing work shoes, at least I hope not)

Take holidays LUS gets 7 at straight pay the CWA gets 10 at straight pay
The instructors just got 10 at time and half. What do you think would be fare? in the past LUS would get 10, 8 hours at regular and 8 at time and a half, that is what we should shoot for. Weez what is the contract going to get you another 55 cents differential? I know, I know, the commuters

 

[WeAAsles]

That is why it was so important to get everyone on the same page, while the NMB made their decision, rather than waiting on the sidelines and not working towards a mutual understanding. The philosophies weren't hashed out before the actual negotiating process took hold. Now, they must try to do that while also trying to deal with the Company.

The hardest part about this entire process was to ensure all the issues were prioritized from the very beginning and understanding the biggest pitfalls was going to come for the Brothers & Sisters at the IAM, simply because they hold the biggest chips the Company still wants to modify, which is their Scope and their Medical.

Sure, there are other parts of the process that need attention and are important but in negotiations the outcome is seldom a one sided bonanza, but a mutual give and take. We needed to work on each others priorities before this process even started and there was more than enough time to have done that work.

From November 2014 to June 2015, time wasted that we are now paying for.

I'm not 100% sure that working out those particular priorities in advance really would have made a hill of beans of difference. It doesn't take a rocket science degree to know the IAM would like to keep the Station Scope and the PT subsidized medical. And our main priorities should have been conveyed in those surveys we took?

But to your credit NYer you did think this would take longer than I thought and you were right. But I also think it's not as simple as you might think it is in figuring out each other's "individual" priorities?

Maybe I was naive in thinking that this was "supposed" to be about the entire collective membership? Stupid me perhaps?

 

[WeAAsles]

Take holidays LUS gets 7 at straight pay the CWA gets 10 at straight pay
The instructors just got 10 at time and half. What do you think would be fare? in the past LUS would get 10, 8 hours at regular and 8 at time and a half, that is what we should shoot for. Weez what is the contract going to get you another 55 cents differential? I know, I know, the commuters

The instructors just got 10 at Double and a half. Now because they got that should we hold firm for the extra $1200.00 it would be against 10 at Double?

To me Al it's more about the TWU and IAM negotiators working for ALL of us and not for their individual agendas. Are they or aren't they?

And what I'm saying now I'm not the first one to be putting this out there. I'm just "maybe" starting to listen to many others that have been saying this for awhile now.

 

[Albert]

The instructors just got 10 at Double and a half. Now because they got that should we hold firm for the extra $1200.00 it would be against 10 at Double?

To me Al it's more about the TWU and IAM negotiators working for ALL of us and not for their individual agendas. Are they or aren't they?

And what I'm saying now I'm not the first one to be putting this out there. I'm just "maybe" starting to listen to many others that have been saying this for awhile now.

We are not in the room so I guess we really don't know if there is any friction between the groups. And since it's all about ME and we already got the money I have no problem if they try to cherry pick the best from both contracts. You know you have to wait for the cherries to ripen

 

[NYer]

I'm not 100% sure that working out those particular priorities in advance really would have made a hill of beans of difference. It doesn't take a rocket science degree to know the IAM would like to keep the Station Scope and the PT subsidized medical. And our main priorities should have been conveyed in those surveys we took?

But to your credit NYer you did think this would take longer than I thought and you were right. But I also think it's not as simple as you might think it is in figuring out each other's "individual" priorities?

Maybe I was naive in thinking that this was "supposed" to be about the entire collective membership? Stupid me perhaps?

What would be expected when there was an invitation to start a process, in November 2014, and another matter takes over in priority. That was a bad move and we may still be dealing with the ramifications of that. Back then it was suggested that issue be dealt with as a separate item, as the union is very capable of multi-tasking. In fact the item was dealt with at the same time as the negotiating process was taking place.

It is about the "entire" membership, that happens to be the point made during your defense of not going to the contract reconciliation scheduled in November 2014. At that point, you said it was a minor issue that could be dealt with in a matter of days. However, it took until August of 2016.

 

[bob@las-AA]

Between the company, the TWU, the IAM and the Association, there is plenty of blame to go around. Not one of those I mentioned can claim any innocence at this stage of the game. Right now, in my opinion, it's the perfect storm for a long drawn out process...

As for the Presidential results of 513, I do not know Fa very well, but it's my understanding he is a well educated guy and very likable. Does that translate over to negotiating and being able to run 513, we shall see. I'm willing to withhold judgement for a while. Oyer on the other hand was well versed and a members President. I would have liked a little more appearances by him, but I do think he was a union man. I'm tickled pink that Darrin Pierce did not get back in, he set this local back, way back! Hopefully he and Coker will go out to pasture now.

Because people remember the last time.

 

[NYer]

The instructors just got 10 at Double and a half. Now because they got that should we hold firm for the extra $1200.00 it would be against 10 at Double?

To me Al it's more about the TWU and IAM negotiators working for ALL of us and not for their individual agendas. Are they or aren't they?

And what I'm saying now I'm not the first one to be putting this out there. I'm just "maybe" starting to listen to many others that have been saying this for awhile now.

It is a bit dangerous to compare groups and their contractual languages. Not all groups, and especially the smaller ones, have comparable issues to be dealt with. Yes, some groups received 10 holidays and it may turn out that we will too. However, it isn't as simple as saying they got it, we must get it because in Fleet we have to deal with contractual values no other group has and that is PTers (among others).

It is easier for groups that don't deal with those types of issues to receive value elsewhere in their contracts than it is for a larger group that has to contend with other unique issues which may add or take value from our CBA. It was easy, we'd have a JCBA by now.

 

[Albert]

It is a bit dangerous to compare groups and their contractual languages. Not all groups, and especially the smaller ones, have comparable issues to be dealt with. Yes, some groups received 10 holidays and it may turn out that we will too. However, it isn't as simple as saying they got it, we must get it because in Fleet we have to deal with contractual values no other group has and that is PTers (among others).

It is easier for groups that don't deal with those types of issues to receive value elsewhere in their contracts than it is for a larger group that has to contend with other unique issues which may add or take value from our CBA. It was easy, we'd have a JCBA by now.

I'm sure the company has a number "we can increase Fleet service (cost) X amount of dollars" The contract has to stay with in that budget. Now what to do about P/T medical? Do they pay double or go the AA way?. The AA way would mean less compensation for the full timers on the other hand it is a part time job. what other part time job pays $30 an hour flight benefits retirement etc

 

[WeAAsles]

What would be expected when there was an invitation to start a process, in November 2014, and another matter takes over in priority. That was a bad move and we may still be dealing with the ramifications of that. Back then it was suggested that issue be dealt with as a separate item, as the union is very capable of multi-tasking. In fact the item was dealt with at the same time as the negotiating process was taking place.

It is about the "entire" membership, that happens to be the point made during your defense of not going to the contract reconciliation scheduled in November 2014. At that point, you said it was a minor issue that could be dealt with in a matter of days. However, it took until August of 2016.

You have your opinion of that situation and I have mine. And neither one of us will ever concede on our opinions of that so you're just beating a dead horse that personally I feel is pointless unless dredging it up constantly is for some other purpose?

My Mother used to harp as well and I was never too keen about that aspect of her personality.

Anyway the BOS issue is done now and "My good friend" gets to keep his city and we'll see how that dual representation works out moving forward?

 

[NYer]

I'm sure the company has a number "we can increase Fleet service (cost) X amount of dollars" The contract has to stay with in that budget. Now what to do about P/T medical? Do they pay double or go the AA way?. The AA way would mean less compensation for the full timers on the other hand it is a part time job. what other part time job pays $30 an hour flight benefits retirement etc

We see it differently. To us, if the costs are lower for PTers, there is more of an incentive to keep them around since their costs are lower, especially when you couple that with the ability to hold them in order to cover other PT positions. It is a difference of philosophy and that is not an easy thing to modify, especially when there is a sense of trust issues.

 

[WeAAsles]

We are not in the room so I guess we really don't know if there is any friction between the groups. And since it's all about ME and we already got the money I have no problem if they try to cherry pick the best from both contracts. You know you have to wait for the cherries to ripen

You see Al this is where you and I differ. It's not ALL about me in my mind. There are people wanting to get home to their families if at all possible and now that we have the $$Money$$ I'd really like some attention to focus just a little more on THEIR wants and needs.

I have a balance to my personal level of greed.

 

[WeAAsles]

We see it differently. To us, if the costs are lower for PTers, there is more of an incentive to keep them around since their costs are lower, especially when you couple that with the ability to hold them in order to cover other PT positions. It is a difference of philosophy and that is not an easy thing to modify, especially when there is a sense of trust issues.

I share the same philosophy on this one with NYer. Plus stepping on others shoulders just so I can get a bit of a better view is a piss poor ideology for any Labor Union to have.

Bravo still to NYer for getting rid of that nasty double the medical rate for PT when he and the guys in the room were given that opportunity.

 

[WeAAsles]

It is a bit dangerous to compare groups and their contractual languages. Not all groups, and especially the smaller ones, have comparable issues to be dealt with. Yes, some groups received 10 holidays and it may turn out that we will too. However, it isn't as simple as saying they got it, we must get it because in Fleet we have to deal with contractual values no other group has and that is PTers (among others).

It is easier for groups that don't deal with those types of issues to receive value elsewhere in their contracts than it is for a larger group that has to contend with other unique issues which may add or take value from our CBA. It was easy, we'd have a JCBA by now.

From what I understand there is a strong possibility that those Sim Techs who got the Double and a Half working on the Holliday are mostly OFF on the Holliday's?

So outside of an emergency situation there may not even be many who actually get to take advantage of it?

 

[WeAAsles]

BTW and unless someone can convince me otherwise, that last Association update disturbed me. For the entire process Fleet and Maintenance have been in lock step with each other on TAing items. But suddenly now I'm seeing the Maintenance group begin to pull ahead?

Now I know that some things will be different between the two groups but the perception for what they moved forward with gives me some cause for concern?