JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA AMTS

[AANOTOK]

DOH allows you to bid vacation before I do, that is a nice little perk. After 15 years you decide you want to explore a new field and transfer into mine, great, me and my 14 years will show you the ropes. But to think your day 1 of occupational seniority should "Trump" mine is insane. Enjoy your fresh start, enjoy bumping me out of that last week of Christmas vacation, but no way in hell should you take the hours, days off or shift away from me with your 1 day!

 

[Matt1200]

DOH allows you to bid vacation before I do, that is a nice little perk. After 15 years you decide you want to explore a new field and transfer into mine, great, me and my 14 years will show you the ropes. But to think your day 1 of occupational seniority should "Trump" mine is insane. Enjoy your fresh start, enjoy bumping me out of that last week of Christmas vacation, but no way in hell should you take the hours, days off or shift away from me with your 1 day!

I could not agree more, company seniority for vacation, but classification seniority for shift and days off!

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

La Li if you had been at TULE in the late 80s/ early 90s Dave Kruse who was VP of maintenance was asked why there weren't more minority AMTs at AA and he surprisingly answered that they actively tried to recruit them but they could make more money at other airlines so they couldn't get them.

Affirmative action at it's best. You would think qualifications would matter more than filling the "minority quota" on a high speed, multi ton, flying life support system.

You asked me to explain my opinion and I did. I do not set policy and obviously nobody at AA or the TWU wanted my opinion before they devised this plan. I feel like I explained plainly and I don't see any point to break down each and every single issue. Obviously you disagree with me so I'm fine with that.

I am fine with it to.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Yes I know but my point was why not extend this seniority senerio to all departments within the company.
Some think it should carry over no matter where you go. I don't.

I understand you were just trying to make a point. It would have been better to use a realistic scenario though. Your point kinda loses it's punch when it is backed by absurdity. I understood where you were coming from though. I can't say I agree with it but, you already knew that.

Please note the blow is not pointed at you specifically 1AA. They are just statements based on tendencies I see on this forum.

I see mechanics state they sacrificed to obtain an education for their A&P. It is like it never enters their minds that people from other title groups may have done the same. I can tell you in my small shop we had several FSC's with an A&P. I can't tell you why they never went title 1 but I can guess it had to do with Sept 11th and the economic downturn. I myself hired into Fleet Service with the intention of going into Title 2 for electrical maintenance (of which I had schooling and work history) but felt seniority locked in title 3 by the time I felt it was safe to risk a move. I think that happens a lot more here than anyone would like to admit.

It also pains me to see FSC's in Tulsa with 10's of years with the company have to start over like day one employees because their shops were closed. Imagine if you had 30 years with the company (or more) and were treated like a new hire. That my friend is, as they say, the other side of the coin. I understand they can bump but that may not seem like a viable option to someone who has built a life over 30 years in a location and will retire within a few years.

I also see mechanics bring up the 3 year requirement they used to have. People don't base career decisions on used to, they base them on today. Why would someone work for low wages in general aviation when they have an opportunity to work on mainline aircraft in a junior mechanic program? Don't fault people for taking opportunities that current situations offer them just because of "used to". To be bitter because you had a bigger hurdle to overcome back in the day is petty.

 

[1AA]

I understand you were just trying to make a point. It would have been better to use a realistic scenario though. Your point kinda loses it's punch when it is backed by absurdity. I understood where you were coming from though. I can't say I agree with it but, you already knew that.

Please note the blow is not pointed at you specifically 1AA. They are just statements based on tendencies I see on this forum.

I see mechanics state they sacrificed to obtain an education for their A&P. It is like it never enters their minds that people from other title groups may have done the same. I can tell you in my small shop we had several FSC's with an A&P. I can't tell you why they never went title 1 but I can guess it had to do with Sept 11th and the economic downturn. I myself hired into Fleet Service with the intention of going into Title 2 for electrical maintenance (of which I had schooling and work history) but felt seniority locked in title 3 by the time I felt it was safe to risk a move. I think that happens a lot more here than anyone would like to admit.

It also pains me to see FSC's in Tulsa with 10's of years with the company have to start over like day one employees because their shops were closed. Imagine if you had 30 years with the company (or more) and were treated like a new hire. That my friend is, as they say, the other side of the coin. I understand they can bump but that may not seem like a viable option to someone who has built a life over 30 years in a location and will retire within a few years.

I also see mechanics bring up the 3 year requirement they used to have. People don't base career decisions on used to, they base them on today. Why would someone work for low wages in general aviation when they have an opportunity to work on mainline aircraft in a junior mechanic program? Don't fault people for taking opportunities that current situations offer them just because of "used to". To be bitter because you had a bigger hurdle to overcome back in the day is petty.

Yo, stop. I was making a point about one size fits all on seniority. You sound like your trying to dig into my life to figure out what makes me tick. I could have used flight attendants instead of pilots. Simple hypothetical point is all I made. Let's move on. When are we going to get a JCBA? I want those ten holidays back. I want that double time back. I don't want the association to give anything up in return for what we should have never lost in the first place.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

When are we going to get a JCBA?

My guess is in September. Let's wait and see.

I want those ten holidays back. I want that double time back. I don't want the association to give anything up in return for what we should have never lost in the first place.

I want those things to.

 

[Matt1200]

My guess is in September. Let's wait and see.

I want those things to.

The only reason it should take that long is because the two unions continue to battle over articles that should have been done before negotiations. I'm not saying the company is working real hard to get this done, but every article has to go back and be negotiated between TWU and IAM. We should have had all our differences worked out before negotiations!

 

[1AA]

The only reason it should take that long is because the two unions continue to battle over articles that should have been done before negotiations. I'm not saying the company is working real hard to get this done, but every article has to go back and be negotiated between TWU and IAM. We should have had all our differences worked out before negotiations!

You are correct on having our differences worked out. Unfortunately the unions and association intentionally went this route. This is a very monumental task to accomplish. With the NMB rules in place for negotiations the company can drag this out past amendable dates for both unions and nothing will change. We are not the first to go this route as far as negotiations dragging on. I always said " One Union, One Voice ". That would be asking too much. At this point nothing will surprise me as far as a negotiations timetable for a JCBA. September sounds as good as any other month of any year.

 

[Buck]

A minor issue within this seniority discussion when Date of Hire or Occupational Date, which could be the same, is that under the TWU there are members that never had the thought of being an Aircraft Mechanic until the SRP program was conceived.

 

[topDawg]

Care to elaborate why you reject an aircraft mechanic apprenticeship program?

Glad to. For me and thousands of other AMTs, we were required to possess an A&P license in order to be considered for hire at AA. In order to attain this license it required Military experience and or trade school or, like me, both. There was an investment in this that continued to spiral. At some point AA could no longer attract qualified people to apply as AMTs due to the fact that AA mechanics made several dollars per hour less than United, Delta and even US Air. Instead of the TWU pushing the company to increase pay to the rates paid elsewhere so qualified AMTs would apply, they came up with a plan to basically gift A&P licenses to career cleaners (Who carried Title 1 seniority with them), stock clerks and fleet service clerks (Who thankfully didn't). So those AMTs who were still paying off student loans for their license requirements were double screwed. They now had AMTs above them on the seniority list (The cleaners) who did not have the student loan debt they had. Also we never got AMT pay to match the other airlines which AA would have had to do to get applicants. For the record one of my best friends was a stock clerk who took advantage of this and has been an AMT for many years now. He does a great job and he knows how I feel and we agree to disagree and remain brothers. He did offer that he had to pay $250 for his practical test. That was total investment in his A&P. Many AMTs had amassed debt of tens of thousands of dollars they were still trying to pay off. The TWU could at least have paid off these loans for these guys. As it turned out they were outbid for CC and Insp jobs by guys who had been cleaners for ten years with no intention of investing in any kind of education to get a license. Maybe in someone's mind this was all fair but not in anyone's who paid dearly in money or indentured servitude for their qualifications. I will also add that AA required three years experience too so many had to spend years working general aviation at minimum wage to get this experience.[/QUOTE]
Three parts here don't make any sense Old guy,

1) "In order to attain this license it required Military experience and or trade school or, like me, both. There was an investment in this that continued to spiral."
How is Military experience any different than getting an A&P from an airline? Its literally the exact same thing you are complaining about except one the tax payers footed the bill.

2) AA could no longer attract qualified people to apply as AMTs due to the fact that AA mechanics made several dollars per hour less than United, Delta and even US Air.
I'd love to see some actual proof of this. Not just an assumption. The reason being DL and I believe UA have both offered a program in their maintenance bases before the late 80s. Granted I'm old, but not that old, and haven't seen it first hand but I have talked to old timers around that time frame and they say it was here.

and 3) Many AMTs had amassed debt of tens of thousands of dollars they were still trying to pay off.
uh no offense then those people shouldn't be anywhere near an airplane. In TODAYS costs most A&P schools, outside of place like Embry Riddle, are less than 10,000 for the A&P. Then the tests are about a grand on top of it.
I'm guessing if they had that much student loan debt then they had another degree.


and FWIW this is all coming from someone who payed for my tickets and not only don't have a problem with the airlines doing this but think its a great thing, but i don't get butt hurt and try to screw the junior guys because I had to pay for school. Helps keep costs lower and more jobs in-house.


having said that, I would be pissed if DL gave a ramper or a MUE (cleaner type) their seniority in those classifications once they moved up to AMT. But they don't. Only ones who keep there time is ASMs. Everyone else gets nothing or if its someone who is a high timer they might pro-rate it or give them a couple of years. (and I don't mind someone working the ramp for 20 years getting 4-5 years of time counted toward there AMT time.)

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

How is Military experience any different than getting an A&P from an airline? Its literally the exact same thing you are complaining about except one the tax payers footed the bill.

Explain how military experience is any different than junior mechanic experience.

I asked the same thing and have yet to receive an answer. I don't expect you will get one either.

uh no offense then those people shouldn't be anywhere near an airplane. In TODAYS costs most A&P schools, outside of place like Embry Riddle, are less than 10,000 for the A&P. Then the tests are about a grand on top of it. I'm guessing if they had that much student loan debt then they had another degree.

If they spent that much then they should have shopped around because airframe/powerplant cost $11392 dollars at Tulsa Tech (plus the test fees I guess). Tulsa Tech had an American Airlines MD-80 sitting in their hanger last time I was there. That was over 3 years ago.

http://tulsatech.edu/classes/fulltime/aviation-generals-airframe/
http://tulsatech.edu/classes/fulltime/aviation-generals-powerplant/

I already brought that up as well. Again nobody wants to touch that. It goes against the narrative.

and FWIW this is all coming from someone who payed for my tickets and not only don't have a problem with the airlines doing this but think its a great thing, but i don't get butt hurt and try to screw the junior guys because I had to pay for school. Helps keep costs lower and more jobs in-house.

I never could figure out why you mechanics had such a problem with the Junior Mechanic Program. From my perspective that is similar to an apprenticeship and apprenticeships have worked well in several trades for thousands of years. The only hypothesis I have is your rejection of the Junior Mechanic Program is purely political.Care to elaborate why you reject an aircraft mechanic apprenticeship program?

Again, I agree with you 100%. Again, nobody wants to touch this because it goes against the political narrative.

having said that, I would be pissed if DL gave a ramper or a MUE (cleaner type) their seniority in those classifications once they moved up to AMT. But they don't. Only ones who keep there time is ASMs. Everyone else gets nothing or if its someone who is a high timer they might pro-rate it or give them a couple of years. (and I don't mind someone working the ramp for 20 years getting 4-5 years of time counted toward there AMT time.)

Seems like a VERY reasonable compromise to me.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Do you A&P's who reject the Junior Mechanic Program do it out of entitlement or fear?

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Glad to. For me and thousands of other AMTs, we were required to possess an A&P license in order to be considered for hire at AA. In order to attain this license it required Military experience and or trade school or, like me, both. There was an investment in this that continued to spiral. At some point AA could no longer attract qualified people to apply as AMTs due to the fact that AA mechanics made several dollars per hour less than United, Delta and even US Air. Instead of the TWU pushing the company to increase pay to the rates paid elsewhere so qualified AMTs would apply, they came up with a plan to basically gift A&P licenses to career cleaners (Who carried Title 1 seniority with them), stock clerks and fleet service clerks (Who thankfully didn't). So those AMTs who were still paying off student loans for their license requirements were double screwed. They now had AMTs above them on the seniority list (The cleaners) who did not have the student loan debt they had. Also we never got AMT pay to match the other airlines which AA would have had to do to get applicants. For the record one of my best friends was a stock clerk who took advantage of this and has been an AMT for many years now. He does a great job and he knows how I feel and we agree to disagree and remain brothers. He did offer that he had to pay $250 for his practical test. That was total investment in his A&P. Many AMTs had amassed debt of tens of thousands of dollars they were still trying to pay off. The TWU could at least have paid off these loans for these guys. As it turned out they were outbid for CC and Insp jobs by guys who had been cleaners for ten years with no intention of investing in any kind of education to get a license. Maybe in someone's mind this was all fair but not in anyone's who paid dearly in money or indentured servitude for their qualifications. I will also add that AA required three years experience too so many had to spend years working general aviation at minimum wage to get this experience.

Three parts here don't make any sense Old guy,

1) "In order to attain this license it required Military experience and or trade school or, like me, both. There was an investment in this that continued to spiral."
How is Military experience any different than getting an A&P from an airline? Its literally the exact same thing you are complaining about except one the tax payers footed the bill.

2) AA could no longer attract qualified people to apply as AMTs due to the fact that AA mechanics made several dollars per hour less than United, Delta and even US Air.
I'd love to see some actual proof of this. Not just an assumption. The reason being DL and I believe UA have both offered a program in their maintenance bases before the late 80s. Granted I'm old, but not that old, and haven't seen it first hand but I have talked to old timers around that time frame and they say it was here.

and 3) Many AMTs had amassed debt of tens of thousands of dollars they were still trying to pay off.
uh no offense then those people shouldn't be anywhere near an airplane. In TODAYS costs most A&P schools, outside of place like Embry Riddle, are less than 10,000 for the A&P. Then the tests are about a grand on top of it.
I'm guessing if they had that much student loan debt then they had another degree.


and FWIW this is all coming from someone who payed for my tickets and not only don't have a problem with the airlines doing this but think its a great thing, but i don't get butt hurt and try to screw the junior guys because I had to pay for school. Helps keep costs lower and more jobs in-house.


having said that, I would be pissed if DL gave a ramper or a MUE (cleaner type) their seniority in those classifications once they moved up to AMT. But they don't. Only ones who keep there time is ASMs. Everyone else gets nothing or if its someone who is a high timer they might pro-rate it or give them a couple of years. (and I don't mind someone working the ramp for 20 years getting 4-5 years of time counted toward there AMT time.)[/QUOTE]

When in the military you earn military pay (Less than minimum wage). The Junior Mechanic Program recipients were paid mechanic pay while training. That is a big difference right there. Not going to waste my time on any more of your points. Obviously you consider me a liar too so I don't see any reason to continue.

 

[Vortilon]

Do you A&P's who reject the Junior Mechanic Program do it out of entitlement or fear?

The program "only" benefits baggage handlers, and the like. For that reason, the program was unfair. Myself, along with many others were paying off student loans for years after we were hired. To have AA footing the bill for some shlump that decided they would take advantage of a free program to upgrade to an AMT position was just another slight. Nothing against said shlump, the program was free - why pass it up. Now; to make it fair, AA could have offered a student loan reimbursement program for current AMTs.

To put things in perspective, the baggage handlers (at the time) were running the TWU, and pretty much only took care of their own. So, for a line AMT, we saw the company and the union playing favorites. Ever notice how AAs rampers are always among the highest paid in the industry? While AAs AMTs are consistently among the lowest paid with the worst benefits - with the exception of a few short duration periods.

Point is, AA doesn't offer any other employees compensation for continuing education. No more playing favorites.

 

[Buck]

In 1984 when I applied at American Airlines if I wanted to start at that time, I had to take a Junior Mechanic position and I was already licensed. Junior Mechanic positions are not just "only" "Baggage Handlers and the like...