JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA AMTS

[1AA]

Hey why not use date of hire for any at AA. I hired in as a fleet service. Worked 5 years, got my A&P. Went to Aircraft Maintenance. Worked there for 5 years while working on my flying. Then I went to flight and now am a pilot. I bring 10 years with me. Now I become a 737 captain because my seniority with the company dictates that. I'm sure many other pilots will be happy that I jumped in front of them with 5 years throwing bags plus 5 more changing tires and brakes. Classification seniority is the best and fairest way. The way AA does it is fair.

 

[Rogallo]

Hey why not use date of hire for any at AA. I hired in as a fleet service. Worked 5 years, got my A&P. Went to Aircraft Maintenance. Worked there for 5 years while working on my flying. Then I went to flight and now am a pilot. I bring 10 years with me. Now I become a 737 captain because my seniority with the company dictates that. I'm sure many other pilots will be happy that I jumped in front of them with 5 years throwing bags plus 5 more changing tires and brakes. Classification seniority is the best and fairest way. The way AA does it is fair.

Jump right into the left seat because of company seniority. That's some funny chit!

 

[Rogallo]

I agree with you 100% and have made this same argument. I even made the same "penalized for trying something new" pitch you did. The reaction was rather negative. I don't think you will find any (besides me) receptive to that idea

It's the IGM mentality.

 

[1AA]

Jump right into the left seat because of company seniority. That's some funny chit!

That's what some are suggesting.

 

[bigjets]

Wouldn't that be like a 35 year FSC getting a pilots license then using his company seniority to become a 777 captain.

Rogallo is clearly the IGM type.

 

[Albert]

Wouldn't that be like a 35 year FSC getting a pilots license then using his company seniority to become a 777 captain.

Rogallo is clearly the IGM type.

Don't worry about that I'm 38 year FSC and I'm having trouble with this key-less entry thing on my Honda, forget about the touch screen. Oh and Conehead they took a survey of all the avionics guys in DFW and only 3 could change a watch battery

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Glad to. For me and thousands of other AMTs, we were required to possess an A&P license in order to be considered for hire at AA.

Do you not think AA has the right to set their own hiring qualifications? Every other business adjust their hiring requirements based on the market. Do you think AA should be an exception?

In order to attain this license it required Military experience and or trade school or, like me, both.

Explain how military experience is any different than junior mechanic experience.

There was an investment in this that continued to spiral.

Do you think that is unique? You have people with master's degrees working 15 dollar an hour jobs. The reported median income September 2014 in the United States was $51,939 PER HOUSEHOLD. Your pay way exceeds that. In fact you make more than most of the people I know with 4 year degrees.

At some point AA could no longer attract qualified people to apply as AMTs due to the fact that AA mechanics made several dollars per hour less than United, Delta and even US Air.

Part of that is the great lie that has been propagated on our society that blue collar work is less rewarding and financially viable than white collar work. I think a large part of the lack of qualified people is the result. If you want to talk about low pay at AA how many IGM people accepted those contracts? You said so yourself, they are the ones that plagued you with junior versions in every title group for a 5 and 5 deal. You are looking to blame the company (who honestly made a smart business decision) instead of the membership where the blame should truly fall.

Instead of the TWU pushing the company to increase pay to the rates paid elsewhere so qualified AMTs would apply, they came up with a plan to basically gift A&P licenses to career cleaners (Who carried Title 1 seniority with them), stock clerks and fleet service clerks (Who thankfully didn't). So those AMTs who were still paying off student loans for their license requirements were double screwed. They now had AMTs above them on the seniority list (The cleaners) who did not have the student loan debt they had. Also we never got AMT pay to match the other airlines which AA would have had to do to get applicants.

TWU is a business not a UNION. They do not represent you they represent their pocket. I understand your complaint but if you follow the logic (and by that I mean the money) it really could not have happened any other way. It was an inevitability given the AA/TWU partnership and the IGM culture of the TWU membership.

For the record one of my best friends was a stock clerk who took advantage of this and has been an AMT for many years now. He does a great job and he knows how I feel and we agree to disagree and remain brothers. He did offer that he had to pay $250 for his practical test. That was total investment in his A&P. Many AMTs had amassed debt of tens of thousands of dollars they were still trying to pay off.

If you think he does a good job then what is the problem?

If they spent that much then they should have shopped around because airframe/powerplant cost $11392 dollars at Tulsa Tech (plus the test fees I guess). Tulsa Tech had an American Airlines MD-80 sitting in their hanger last time I was there. That was over 3 years ago.

http://tulsatech.edu/classes/fulltime/aviation-generals-airframe/
http://tulsatech.edu/classes/fulltime/aviation-generals-powerplant/

If people are too lazy to shop around they deserve to get taken. Spartan makes a pretty good profit from these people.

The TWU could at least have paid off these loans for these guys.

Are you serious?

As it turned out they were outbid for CC and Insp jobs by guys who had been cleaners for ten years with no intention of investing in any kind of education to get a license.

Again, that is on the company. They dictate entry qualifications for positions. I agree it is stupid to have an inexperienced mechanic in an inspector or crew chief position but the company chose to take on that liability.

Maybe in someone's mind this was all fair but not in anyone's who paid dearly in money or indentured servitude for their qualifications. I will also add that AA required three years experience too so many had to spend years working general aviation at minimum wage to get this experience.

I said it once I will say it again.

Do you not think AA has the right to set their own hiring qualifications? Every other business adjust their hiring requirements based on the market. Do you think AA should be an exception?

I really hate to say this but when you have a UNION negotiating a defined pay progression instead of one based off of qualifications and merit you are going to have these situations arise.

 

[bigjets]

Don't worry about that I'm 38 year FSC and I'm having trouble with this key-less entry thing on my Honda, forget about the touch screen. Oh and Conehead they took a survey of all the avionics guys in DFW and only 3 could change a watch battery

I've done OH at TUL, I've done line work at a class ii, I've been both a general and a avionics mech at a class I, and I can tell you, a few line avionics mechs have the misconception that nobody else can do what they do. I can assure you that isn't the case. It's just an overinflated view of their self worth.

At class ii station mechanics handle the workload just fine including avi work, it's like when an OH mech station comes to a line station, after a while they're just as good as any line mech. Sometimes better because of the added experience. It's just a case of how familiar you are with that job assignment.

 

[Albert]

I've done OH at TUL, I've done line work at a class ii, I've been both a general and a avionics mech at a class I, and I can tell you, a few line avionics mechs have the misconception that nobody else can do what they do. I can assure you that isn't the case. It's just an overinflated view of their self worth.

At class ii station mechanics handle the workload just fine including avi work, it's like when an OH mech station comes to a line station, after a while they're just as good as any line mech. Sometimes better because of the added experience. It's just a case of how familiar you are with that job assignment.

I was just joking with Coneheads, no real negativity intended

 

[Rogallo]

Wouldn't that be like a 35 year FSC getting a pilots license then using his company seniority to become a 777 captain.

Rogallo is clearly the IGM type.

Some of you guys' logic is laughable

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Hey why not use date of hire for any at AA. I hired in as a fleet service. Worked 5 years, got my A&P. Went to Aircraft Maintenance. Worked there for 5 years while working on my flying. Then I went to flight and now am a pilot. I bring 10 years with me. Now I become a 737 captain because my seniority with the company dictates that. I'm sure many other pilots will be happy that I jumped in front of them with 5 years throwing bags plus 5 more changing tires and brakes. Classification seniority is the best and fairest way. The way AA does it is fair.

Frankly your scenario sounds ridiculous but I will play along.

American Airlines can (and should) set qualification requirements to fly a 737. Regardless of seniority if you can't meet the requirements you don't fly that aircraft, end of story.

Coming up with ridiculous scenarios with an easy fix is not a way to validate your view on seniority.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

OLDGUY@AA please read post 1897 and respond.

I would like to hear what you have to say.

 

[Buck]

I can't think of a reason the company could benefit from this.

It could be that it is the union that benefits?
The goal for the TWU is to keep as many members as possible.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

La Li if you had been at TULE in the late 80s/ early 90s Dave Kruse who was VP of maintenance was asked why there weren't more minority AMTs at AA and he surprisingly answered that they actively tried to recruit them but they could make more money at other airlines so they couldn't get them.

OLDGUY@AA please read post 1897 and respond.

I would like to hear what you have to say.

You asked me to explain my opinion and I did. I do not set policy and obviously nobody at AA or the TWU wanted my opinion before they devised this plan. I feel like I explained plainly and I don't see any point to break down each and every single issue. Obviously you disagree with me so I'm fine with that.

 

[1AA]

Frankly your scenario sounds ridiculous but I will play along.

American Airlines can (and should) set qualification requirements to fly a 737. Regardless of seniority if you can't meet the requirements you don't fly that aircraft, end of story.

Coming up with ridiculous scenarios with an easy fix is not a way to validate your view on seniority.

Yes I know but my point was why not extend this seniority senerio to all departments within the company.
Some think it should carry over no matter where you go. I don't.