It's official!

[jimntx]

Mr. Owens, just FYI, my medical premium is dropping in 2015 from over $120/mo to about $85/mo for the same or better coverage.  Evidently, there are wide disparities in the cost of medical coverage.  And, please stop using retiree medical as an example of increases in insurance costs.  Not that many of us have it anymore, and the rest of us will never have it.  It's a non-issue from here on out.

 

[jimntx]

 
Well shame on you for agreeing to that but I was responding to another TWU member.  
 
 

And, exactly what does that have to do with whether or not you are telling the truth?  Are you saying that if you are addressing a TWU member, the truth is not necessary?  No wonder so many of the rank and file have a low opinion of the TWU.

 

[Bob Owens]

Mr. Owens, just FYI, my medical premium is dropping in 2015 from over $120/mo to about $85/mo for the same or better coverage.  Evidently, there are wide disparities in the cost of medical coverage.  And, please stop using retiree medical as an example of increases in insurance costs.  Not that many of us have it anymore, and the rest of us will never have it.  It's a non-issue from here on out.

 As far as your premiums dropping, wouldn't that be due to the current contract not the TA?  What about deductibles and copays? What limits did the TA have going forward and wasn't part of the deal the PMUS FAS get a lump sum $3000 to make up for increased medical coverage costs? 

 

[Bob Owens]

And, exactly what does that have to do with whether or not you are telling the truth?  Are you saying that if you are addressing a TWU member, the truth is not necessary?  No wonder so many of the rank and file have a low opinion of the TWU.

No I'm saying that the response I made which cited UPS as a carrier was to a TWU member concerning our situation. UPS has mechanics, that is a fact.  BTW I am rank and file , my peers elected me to represent them. 

 

[Bob Owens]

I would suggest reading Tracy Michaels response to Terry Maxon's article about DP saying that we don't impact profits. 

 

[Duke787]

And, exactly what does that have to do with whether or not you are telling the truth?  Are you saying that if you are addressing a TWU member, the truth is not necessary?  No wonder so many of the rank and file have a low opinion of the TWU.

Owens has a habit of pulling info out of his arse, I've talked to a couple of former local presidents, during negotiations he sits there and is agreeable with all other presidents, then attacks them for being twu international stooges in letters and forum.

As you can see as he talks about the FA's TA, you know what's going on and where he's wrong but yet he continues. And yes because of union officials like him is why we are the worst paid, with worst contract.

 

[IORFA]

Bob, we were to get MORE vacation with the TA. Not less. However, because I work with more morons than rational smart people, I'm going to make less money AND have less vacation. Yay me!!! Thanks Facebook and lazy f/a's who couldn't bother to attend the road shows or email/call APFA to get facts.

 

[Overspeed]

IORFA,
Do you think some of the FAs that either didn't vote or voted no was partially due to left over anger from the 2003 concessions? Also, LG was in a tough situation when she was able to get the hard 40 and more pay after the TA was already approved by the board. While it is a good thing that she was able to get more value for the membership, it does create the perception that maybe if she had pushed harder in negotiations she could have got more value in the original TA.
 
I understand myself that the bump up in pay was driven by DL's decision to bump up pay after the TA was agreed too by the APFA. LG did the right thing by asking for and getting more money but to those who don't understand the process it has the appearance of poor negotiating.

 

[IORFA]

The biggest problem I see is that AFA has some seriously weird and outdated confusing language in their contracts. USAir F/A's wanted to keep all/most of the confusing stuff. That was a problem as a lot of people couldn't/didn't understand it. It wasn't till the last week that a normal sounding break down of things like reserve started to come out. My close friends still didn't understand reserve and thought the current way was better till the union put out an easy reading version. Again, AFA contracts couldn't be more confusing or different than an APFA contract. There is no reason for all the drivel in them. With that, the other big problem is that most people aren't financial wizards and don't know how to use a calculator when very large numbers are involved, nor do the understand compounding. People also have a hard time remembering the last time they received profit sharing and how much they got. Every smart person should know that getting it twice a month in higher wages and where up to an additional 9.9% of it is added into your 401K is a better deal by far. However in this age of social media, all it takes is a few uninformed loud mouths that don't understand logic and finances to find like minded people and stir them up in such a way that absolutely nothing will change their minds. My friends that voted no can't tell me why they voted no or the one or two provisions they didn't like, when I explained it to them, they said they didn't understand it. Now, I've yet to meet any no voter that attended a roadshow! Amazing. Now, it isn't an excuse. But the complexities of a vastly different worded contract was a huge problem AND the very big problem of trust. Most of the no voters I talked to simply didn't believe the union or the company that this was the only chance. That was the biggest one. If we voted today with what is out there, I think it passes by a very reasonable number. People got their chance to send a message, however most don't want the outcome. Like I said, morons! As an aside, yes, changing the limp 40 during the vote was a problem. Except, it was advantageous for the membership. However the loud mouths ratcheted up the rhetoric on the Facebook about how that was the beginning and they guaranteed more changes would come. I almost forgot, there were the conspiracy theories that the union and company knew the vote total by the minute. Thus, if the vote was no, they would sweeten the pot to get a yes at the end. How'd that work out for them? Morons!!!

 

[swamt]

Bob, we were to get MORE vacation with the TA. Not less. However, because I work with more morons than rational smart people, I'm going to make less money AND have less vacation. Yay me!!! Thanks Facebook and lazy f/a's who couldn't bother to attend the road shows or email/call APFA to get facts.

And once again it just proves that it pays to do your own homework.  I agree with you 100% IORFA. Most people are too lazy to get their own info, even when info meetings are set up, on property, to get the membership updated.  They would rather be lazy and just hope someone will spoon feed them, if not they just believe everything the union or company tells them.  Then after the vote and everything is put into force they are freaking out and screaming and asking "how did this all come about"  when all along they all nothing to blame but themselves for not getting the info themselves and not getting educated on what the exact outcomes will be.  Now the F/A's of AA will now be stuck with much lower pay, lower VAC, lower QOL, no PS, and I believe even a longer contract with less overtime pay as well.  I sure hope the Pilots and Mechanics unions are watching and LEARNING from this...

 

[AANOTOK]

  I sure hope the Pilots and Mechanics unions are watching and LEARNING from this...

You mean the Fleet Service union which the Mechanics are a minor part of.  B)

 

[bigjets]

IORFA,
Do you think some of the FAs that either didn't vote or voted no was partially due to left over anger from the 2003 concessions? Also, LG was in a tough situation when she was able to get the hard 40 and more pay after the TA was already approved by the board. While it is a good thing that she was able to get more value for the membership, it does create the perception that maybe if she had pushed harder in negotiations she could have got more value in the original TA.
 
I understand myself that the bump up in pay was driven by DL's decision to bump up pay after the TA was agreed too by the APFA. LG did the right thing by asking for and getting more money but to those who don't understand the process it has the appearance of poor negotiating.

 
I see it as, a dog see's his reflection in the river, drops his bone in the river to grab the bone in his reflection, now the dog has NO bone. If the bookface and lazy FA's would have paid attention to the info provided to them, they wouldn't be headed to arbitration next week, they would be getting a raise next week.
 
I see your point though, people need to vote on the actualities of your position, not the way they THINK it should be.

 

[bigjets]

The biggest problem I see is that AFA has some seriously weird and outdated confusing language in their contracts. USAir F/A's wanted to keep all/most of the confusing stuff. That was a problem as a lot of people couldn't/didn't understand it. It wasn't till the last week that a normal sounding break down of things like reserve started to come out. My close friends still didn't understand reserve and thought the current way was better till the union put out an easy reading version. Again, AFA contracts couldn't be more confusing or different than an APFA contract. There is no reason for all the drivel in them. With that, the other big problem is that most people aren't financial wizards and don't know how to use a calculator when very large numbers are involved, nor do the understand compounding. People also have a hard time remembering the last time they received profit sharing and how much they got. Every smart person should know that getting it twice a month in higher wages and where up to an additional 9.9% of it is added into your 401K is a better deal by far. However in this age of social media, all it takes is a few uninformed loud mouths that don't understand logic and finances to find like minded people and stir them up in such a way that absolutely nothing will change their minds. My friends that voted no can't tell me why they voted no or the one or two provisions they didn't like, when I explained it to them, they said they didn't understand it. Now, I've yet to meet any no voter that attended a roadshow! Amazing. Now, it isn't an excuse. But the complexities of a vastly different worded contract was a huge problem AND the very big problem of trust. Most of the no voters I talked to simply didn't believe the union or the company that this was the only chance. That was the biggest one. If we voted today with what is out there, I think it passes by a very reasonable number. People got their chance to send a message, however most don't want the outcome. Like I said, morons! As an aside, yes, changing the limp 40 during the vote was a problem. Except, it was advantageous for the membership. However the loud mouths ratcheted up the rhetoric on the Facebook about how that was the beginning and they guaranteed more changes would come. I almost forgot, there were the conspiracy theories that the union and company knew the vote total by the minute. Thus, if the vote was no, they would sweeten the pot to get a yes at the end. How'd that work out for them? Morons!!!

 
You forgot to mention that profit sharing is taxed at 40%, and the changes that were made were in the FA's favor. 

 

[FWAAA]

You forgot to mention that profit sharing is taxed at 40%, and the changes that were made were in the FA's favor. 

Profit sharing is not taxed at any higher rate than your other income.
 
Federal income tax withholding rules require a higher withholding percentage on irregular/bonus payments than the typical withholding rates, but that generally results in a healthy refund.  

 

[WorldTraveler]

Profit sharing is not taxed at any higher rate than your other income.
 
Federal income tax withholding rules require a higher withholding percentage on irregular/bonus payments than the typical withholding rates, but that generally results in a healthy refund.

or an employee can under withhold during other parts of the year so that the profit sharing withholding pays for a bigger portion of one's tax burden.


and the point regarding complex language in CBAs is to get rid of it so unions can explain it.... if mgmt. and labor both accept complex language, the reason is likely because the company can and will find a way to get around it.

KISS. (Keep it simple stupid)