It's official!

[jimntx]

It was released that the company is giving the pilots yet another extension to negotiate.
Because the negotiation protocol between the company and the APA gives the arbitration decision to the company.  And, remember the pilots have not voted on a TA.  They have not reached a TA, and the company's statements seem to indicate that (as far as the company is concerned) they're not even close.  It's not the same situation as we have at all.  DP is giving the negotiators another chance to reach a TA.  He is NOT offering a re-vote on anything.
 
That puts to bed the assertion that the Flight attendants shouldn't get another chance because it would be a "bad example".
No, it doesn't.  As stated above, you are comparing apples to rutabagas.  We are in an entirely different stage of negotiations.
 
Indeed, I think that it is very likely that the company did propose another chance by proposing a re-vote.  Yet this was quashed by APFA, as they informed Mr. Parker that we would proceed to arbitration.
You think?  In other words, "it's very likely" that you don't know.  Your just making a statement off the top of your head (or taken from the Oracle at Facebook) because you are determined to stick to the belief that the AFA at US Airways was/is far superior to the APFA, and you want to blame somebody.  And, when you add the argument that your side voted for it.  Yes, a majority did.  But, since the final count was only 16 votes apart, we could just as easily say that 16 NO votes on the US Airways side made the whole difference.
What's up, folks?
Nothing.  Perhaps, you should let your therapist know that your paranoia is becoming rampant again.
 
Is there any argument that flight attendants would be better off under the TA, than a 82 million less arbitration award?  Hasn't there been enough of an outcry that the Facebook bunch has largely been discredited?
 
AFA advocated for flight attendants, not always well, but in this instance they would seize the chance at a re-vote. 
 
What is going on?  Before you respond that the company released that the "Flight attendants would proceed to arbitration" please recognize the timeline.  That was AFTER DP said he would allow a re-vote.  APFA answered "we will go to arbitration", basically slamming that door. 
Source?  I don't remember any statements by DP that he would allow a re-vote.  I've only seen statements from him that we are proceeding to arbitration per the Negotiation Protocols.  Besides, DP is not stupid.  Why would he risk the wrath of the stockholders by re-offering almost a half a billion dollars (over the life of the contract) to the f/as to which they had already said "No thank  you.  We don't want that money."?
 
That is not advocacy, that is "take your medicine".  Well, guess what?  The US flight attendant approved the TA.  We do not need any medicine.  There is no desire for a divided group, however the comparison between the two is inevitable, as US just did all of this not too long ago.
Oh, yes there is.  There's been an unstated underlying theme all along that all of you are union experts and the APFA is a bunch of amateurs.  Maybe you should have gotten the APA to hold out and demand that they become the surviving union in the merger so that all of you could show us how it's done.  Maybe you could have negotiated some pay rates like you have now, and all of us on the AA side could take a cut in pay to something that you experts had negotiated. 
 
APFA should be advocating for a re-vote, if that door is even still open.  If it's not, then it was slammed shut by APFA.
 
This is all going to come to a conclusion soon, however, as AA flight attendants live out whatever agreement we end up with, there should not be any illusions about  how we got there, and what was done and not done.
Ok.  If you want to hold on to the belief that the US Airways f/as are like the Virgin Mary--without sin or error--knock yourself out.  And, be sure and hang on to that belief and resentment until you get in charge and can straighten out the rest of us by showing us how it's done.  Spend the next 5 years blaming the AA side for the misery that your life has become because of the arbitration.  Of course, hanging on to a resentment--particularly one where you have no power to change the situation--is like drinking poison in the hope it will kill the other person you are mad at.  If you are all that mad at the APFA, you should have thought of that and tried to prevent the merger.  Did you really think that the APA would be the surviving union?  If so, I find that level of naivete refreshing in someone  your age.

 

[FWAAA]

An extension of time to reach an initial TA isn't the same as starting from scratch and negotiating a second TA (as it would be with the flight attendants).   
 
Sometimes work groups vote for economically favorable agreements, and sometimes they vote against their economic interests, perhaps to "send a message" to management - in this case, a pretty expensive message.   Democracy doesn't always produce the economically optimal result.   

 

[swamt]

It was released that the company is giving the pilots yet another extension to negotiate.
 
That puts to bed the assertion that the Flight attendants shouldn't get another chance because it would be a "bad example". 
 
Indeed, I think that it is very likely that the company did propose another chance by proposing a re-vote.  Yet this was quashed by APFA, as they informed Mr. Parker that we would proceed to arbitration.
 
What's up, folks?
 
Is there any argument that flight attendants would be better off under the TA, than a 82 million less arbitration award?  Hasn't there been enough of an outcry that the Facebook bunch has largely been discredited?
 
AFA advocated for flight attendants, not always well, but in this instance they would seize the chance at a re-vote. 
 
What is going on?  Before you respond that the company released that the "Flight attendants would proceed to arbitration" please recognize the timeline.  That was AFTER DP said he would allow a re-vote.  APFA answered "we will go to arbitration", basically slamming that door. 
 
That is not advocacy, that is "take your medicine".  Well, guess what?  The US flight attendant approved the TA.  We do not need any medicine.  There is no desire for a divided group, however the comparison between the two is inevitable, as US just did all of this not too long ago.
 
APFA should be advocating for a re-vote, if that door is even still open.  If it's not, then it was slammed shut by APFA.
 
This is all going to come to a conclusion soon, however, as AA flight attendants live out whatever agreement we end up with, there should not be any illusions about  how we got there, and what was done and not done.

Please source the info about APFA squashing a possible re-vote offer by Parker.  The APFA was in full support and recomending a yes vote, why wouldn't they endorse a 2nd vote?  

 

[dfw gen]

 

[AirLUVer]

Please source the info about APFA squashing a possible re-vote offer by Parker.  The APFA was in full support and recomending a yes vote, why wouldn't they endorse a 2nd vote?

There was a hotline message Thursday the 20th I believe. I think it was posted on this thread the day or day after it happened, as well as the hotline page of apfa.org

 

[Bob Owens]

There's no legal action the FA's can take at this point, Bob.

You're being irresponsible by encouraging anyone to take illegal work actions when the union has already AFPA already agreed to the process underway.

Where did I say to do anything illegal?  I believe the APFA has recall in their Constitution. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes, Bob.  Greed was definitely the winner.  They may get PS in arbitration, but the total package will be less than the TA.

The total package was five more years. Five years of what will likely be record profits. Does anybody remember the 90s? AA was making tons of money and we were all stuck under concessionary deals struck during the recession. 
 
Can anyone from the TWU remember 1995 and the 6 and 6 contract? Six years and six percent over the six years with a bunch of concessions, AA was wildly profitable in 1995 and we got stuck with a super long concessionary deal and all we heard from the Union and the company was "You voted for it". 
 
Prior to that vote we heard all the same doom and gloom, oh the economy, of the sky could fall, this is the best we can get, then as our standard of living sank we saw the company make record profits. 
 
This is what we will likely see again and you can be sure that had this deal passed that three years from now nobody would be admitting to voting yes and everybody would be complaining about what a crappy deal they got and that they don't even get profit sharing, and guess what the company would be telling them? YOU VOTED FOR IT!!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

So you're saying the FAs should have signed the TA in there by raising the bar for industry standard pay and work rules for FAs, But by voting down TA which you advocated for, because for some reason you think an arbitrator is going to give them a better/shorter contract with profit sharing.

You are all Over the place, please tell me you will not be negotiating on the behalf of the mechs. You'll demand outlandish contract demands and one of two things will happen 1) we wind up in arbitration, and wind up with an average instead of top pay or 2) the twu and AA delay talks for years (which has been done) only to sign a subpar long deal right at the end of a down economy think 1995 contract. You're going to keep us at subpar pay for years with your line of thinking.

The FA TA was too long and front end loaded. Looking at the chart AA FAs are lagging on several fronts, after the initial increase they don't see much else for the next four years. 
 
In arbitration they take the industry, not AA definition of industry so SWA and UPS would be part of the formula. 
 
TWU talked for years because the International was in the companies pocket. 
 
You were probably a YES voter in 1995 as well. 

 

[AirLUVer]

There were lots of pay protection in the contract that AA does not have. Which is part of the massive front end.

 

[IORFA]

The FA TA was too long and front end loaded. Looking at the chart AA FAs are lagging on several fronts, after the initial increase they don't see much else for the next four years. 
 
In arbitration they take the industry, not AA definition of industry so SWA and UPS would be part of the formula. 
 
TWU talked for years because the International was in the companies pocket. 
 
You were probably a YES voter in 1995 as well.

WRONG! The NPA clearly states Delta, Continental and United. Not WN and UPS, which doesn't even have F/A's. This WAS a great contract. We have people who are just too stupid to see that. We may very well end up with profit sharing, problem is that means $82 million is loped off e top and another $50 million to buy the profit sharing. Then we don't get the huge raise with accompanying 401K CONTRIBUTION of up to 9.9% on that profit sharing. Nor do I get it twice a month! Stupid is as stupid does! People still don't get it. I've heard people say they voted no over the dumbest parts. One voted no over the process to pay for JURY DUTY! Complete moron. Jury duty happens like almost never.

 

[Bob Owens]

WRONG! The NPA clearly states Delta, Continental and United. Not WN and UPS, which doesn't even have F/A's.

 
Well shame on you for agreeing to that but I was responding to another TWU member.  
 

This WAS a great contract. We have people who are just too stupid to see that. We may very well end up with profit sharing, problem is that means $82 million is loped off e top and another $50 million to buy the profit sharing. Then we don't get the huge raise with accompanying 401K CONTRIBUTION of up to 9.9% on that profit sharing. Nor do I get it twice a month! Stupid is as stupid does! People still don't get it. I've heard people say they voted no over the dumbest parts. One voted no over the process to pay for JURY DUTY! Complete moron. Jury duty happens like almost never.
 

 
What was great about the contract other than the up front raise (followed by four years of raises that likely won't cover medical increases let alone inflation)?
 
You do realize that AA workers  have the worst medical in the industry don't you? (Management has a different plan) 
 
Didn't the contract also have less vacation than your peers? each week less comes out to around a 2% pay cut, so that knocks the pay raise down right there. Then you have to factor in Medical, that can easily come out to another 5%. 
 
The wage may have been industry leading (till maybe 2016 with three years after that before you have an opportunity to amend) but when other things are factored in that lead was eroded right out of the gate with five long years ahead of you. The PMCAL FAs enter sect 6 next month and the PMUAL enter sect 6 in 2016 and they will be negotiating with a company earning record profits. My bet is they will end up in a PEB as your deal would have hurt their ability to make real gains. 

 

[eolesen]

Are you sure management has different medical?

Used to be the same as the agents, and I thought one of the big pushes in S1113 was to get a single medical plan for all workgroups...

Then again, if it's US Airways dba American Airlines, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a different plan.

 

[FWAAA]

What was great about the contract other than the up front raise (followed by four years of raises that likely won't cover medical increases let alone inflation)?

What was so great about it?   The fact that it was much richer than the contract that will be imposed following the arbitration.
 
Had the TA been ratified, the hourly rates would be up substantially over the term of the contract.  On the AA side, TOS would be 19.25% higher in four years than it is today.   For US FAs, their TOS would be 22.75% higher in four years than today.   For some FAs, the ancillary amounts were going up quite a bit, like lead/purser pay.   
 
Management and the APFA agreed on a framework that will severely limit the arbitration panel's latitude.  Perhaps that was not ideal, but they did.   It's going to be a five year agreement with much smaller improvements.   Over the five years, the "no" vote will cost the FAs over $400 million.   

 

[Bob Owens]

So they lost 20% in BK and five years from now the contract will get back the 20% plus 2% and you say thats great.  So factoring in average inflation (and not factoring increases to health benefits) thats roughly a cut of around 19% in real total compensation. 
 
And you say thats a great deal? 
 
You also leave out the concessions which had value, the wage increase was offset by language concessions.
 
You can't say how many years the arbitrator will rule. 
 
How much will the Delta and UAL FAs get in profit sharing over the next five years?
 
We know why you don't want to see the FAs get profit sharing, cause it means more money for you. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Are you sure management has different medical?

Used to be the same as the agents, and I thought one of the big pushes in S1113 was to get a single medical plan for all workgroups...

Then again, if it's US Airways dba American Airlines, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a different plan.

We were told that management has their own plan, different than ours. 
 
The plan they offered us comes out to a cut of over $2/hr. 
 
FWAAA talks about hourly wage but leaves out the concessions. So the FA wage goes up say $1000 per year but then the company increases medical coverage, or deductibles and copays by around $1200 a year. 
 
Recently got a call from a retiree, he said he was notified the company wanted $24000 , yes twenty four thousand dollars to cover him and his wife.