It's official!

[Bob Owens]

What part of "binding arbitration" is cloudy?
 
This thread is about the flight attendant contract, flight attendant issues and what is BEST FOR FLIGHT ATTENDANTS.
 
You want to fall on a sword for profit sharing, have at it.
 
Supposedly, this management gave the flight attendants another shot at this TA. 
 
The merged AA flight attendant contract will be this TA or a reduced arbitrated version, with the term.  The arbitrator isn't going to adjust the term either.  He is only going to reduce it by 82 million.
 
If indeed there is another chance for flight attendants to vote in a superior alternative to an arbitrated contract worth 82 million less,  then it is ridiculous not to take it.
 
Obfuscating the reality of our position is in the interests of whom, I do not know, but certainly not the flight attendants.
 
The choice is clear.  Vote for a raise, or vote for a reduced compensation contract.  That's reality, that is the truth, the rest is hyperbole and crap.
 
BTW, In 2018 the rules will be the same. You negotiate from the contract you're in, not what you wish it to be.  So voting this down merely increases the height of  the step up you want to take later.

Not really, in 2018 you negotiate based on whats out there in the industry. Thats how it works under the RLA, you may want to read up on it. A PEB looks at what both parties are asking for and what the rest of the industry has and the history. Wages are at an all time low in real terms, and profits are at an all time high. If wages can take double digit delves then they can also take double digit increases. This deal adds an extra year onto what you have without granting AA the synergies it needs to reach maximum profitability. Its not as if the company has nothing to gain here. The company is not really in a position to say take it or leave it because they want the synergies. The question is what the the values, was AA giving you good numbers? The Union should demand the same methodology be used to calculate the value of profit sharing as they used to calculate the concessions they gave. Looking back, not forward. 
 
What you seem to forget is that for pretty much our entire lives there has been inflation, so time plays a big part in the height of the step you talk about. If the Union were to argue for a 2016 amendable date what would be the companies argument against it? Sure they have 2018 now, but that was struck with a different company that was in bankruptcy, not one making $4 billion year in profits, and how can the flight attendants at AA say they have a contract that meets the stated intent if it goes so many years beyond the amendable date of its comparator union? You do realize that up until the last few contract funds airline contracts were typically 2 year deals don't you? Well with the robust balance sheets the airline no longer can rage that it needs to show long term concessionary deals to survive. After all they don't have such deals with its largest expense-fuel. 

 

[bigjets]

I would think the smartest thing to do at this point is to poll the membership on what direction the APFA should go.  1-Should they fight it out in arbitration.  Or 2- should they send out the original offer for a re-vote.  I understand your frustration over the results.  But I tend to also agree with some out here that they should never lose the PS, and should also enjoy some form of 401K matching.  Having both will better align employees with a better retirement than what the old time pensions have done.  The 401K was brought out to help supplement pensions not replace them in their entirety, the PS is a nice addition with the 401K's to help that.  AA keeping the pensions frozen and not deleted completely will now just be an added bonus to help as well.

1- I don't believe there's anything to fight out in arbitration just how to move the money around. Minus the $82m they didn't want.

2- the FAs get or use to get depending on what the arbitrator decides. 9.9%contribution th their 401k------- AA mechs get 5.5% match. Great job twu outdone again by the APFA

 

[bigjets]

OK this is not sect 6, so why would you want to add even more years before you get to section 6? When was the last time FAs at US were in Sect 6? 
 
Is there anything stopping the Arbitrator from awarding a contract that becomes amendable under section6 in 2016, the year the UAL FAs contract becomes amendable? 
 
Perhaps if the FAs started to show everyone what its like to have an unhappy workforce the arbitrator may not even have to decide. maybe start picketing, I would walk with you guys as I have in the past. We should be taking this public about how our compensation was cut in half because the Airlines lied and said they needed the cuts to make money, now they are making crazy profits and they don't even want to share any of the profits with us. If they want to restore our pay in real terms then fine, keep the profits, but to maintain much lower compensation and deny us profit sharing is simply shamefully greedy. 
 
Pilots, mechanics and all other ground workers have an interest in seeing the FAs get profit sharing and I suspect if the APFA took this public that the other Union members on the property would rally behind the Flight Attendants.

This candy land line of thinking is precisely why the FAs are going to miss out on $82m, saying stuff like who's to say the arbitrator won't make the contract expire in 2016. So the arbitrator is going to shave off $82m but yet give profit sharing, and make it a 2 year contract. who really thinks that's going to happen.

Not only WAS the FAs going to have better work rules then Delta FAs but higher pay as well.

You are counting on the world staying as it is today, a fuel embargo, war, economic collapse, terrorist attack can change the world over night. GET THE PAY GO FOR THE SURE THING.
Do not listen to Owens, his heart is in the right spot but he lives in a bubble of believing the world is like he thinks it should be.

You're going to cause money to fly out of the pockets of mechanics and into AAs bank account.

 

[Bob Owens]

How do you think working people got all the things we gave up? You are either management or a coward. If they can take it all away in one swipe then we can get it back the same way. All we have to do is stick together and fight for it. The larger the company the harder it is for them to defeat a unified workforce. All we are demanding is what they promised which was to share in the upswing. Yes the world is a turbulent unpredictable place. Always was, but that didn't stop people from demanding more, it certainly doesn't hold the executives back, in fact uncertainty is what inspired them to take more. How does working for less protect you from any of the calamities you spoke of? The fact is given any opportunity to exploit they will whether you are making decent pay or lousy pay they will still come and try and squeeze some more out of you.
Sure thing? There is no such thing except that if they sign this things will not get any better for at least five years but they could get worse if any of the calamities you speak about should occur.

 

[topDawg]

How do you think working people got all the things we gave up? 

after years and years and years and years of work. 
 
 
It damn sure wasn't done in 2 years like you expect it too. Your ideas are setting us in the industry back not forward. 
 
Voting no just got the FAs a cost neutral contract and set everyone back a step by 4-6 years. 
 

Perhaps if the FAs started to show everyone what its like to have an unhappy workforce the arbitrator may not even have to decide. maybe start picketing, 

public pity in a more and more union unfriendly world, for a south based company who offered an industry leading(or at least matching) contract? In this economy? 
 
 
Oh yeah that'll work. Maybe you should also write a email to Obama to see if he will save you.                 

This candy land line of thinking is precisely why the FAs are going to miss out on $82m, saying stuff like who's to say the arbitrator won't make the contract expire in 2016. So the arbitrator is going to shave off $82m but yet give profit sharing, and make it a 2 year contract. who really thinks that's going to happen.

Not only WAS the FAs going to have better work rules then Delta FAs but higher pay as well.

You are counting on the world staying as it is today, a fuel embargo, war, economic collapse, terrorist attack can change the world over night. GET THE PAY GO FOR THE SURE THING.
Do not listen to Owens, his heart is in the right spot but he lives in a bubble of believing the world is like he thinks it should be.

You're going to cause money to fly out of the pockets of mechanics and into AAs bank account.

 
Bigjets gets it. Good post. 

 

[eolesen]

Don't be dumb, expect and demand more.  If your leaders aren't willing to lead then you have the means to take corrective action.

There's no legal action the FA's can take at this point, Bob.

You're being irresponsible by encouraging anyone to take illegal work actions when the union has already AFPA already agreed to the process underway.

 

[bigjets]

How do you think working people got all the things we gave up? You are either management or a coward. If they can take it all away in one swipe then we can get it back the same way. All we have to do is stick together and fight for it. The larger the company the harder it is for them to defeat a unified workforce. All we are demanding is what they promised which was to share in the upswing. Yes the world is a turbulent unpredictable place. Always was, but that didn't stop people from demanding more, it certainly doesn't hold the executives back, in fact uncertainty is what inspired them to take more. How does working for less protect you from any of the calamities you spoke of? The fact is given any opportunity to exploit they will whether you are making decent pay or lousy pay they will still come and try and squeeze some more out of you.
Sure thing? There is no such thing except that if they sign this things will not get any better for at least five years but they could get worse if any of the calamities you speak about should occur.

We all long for the good old days of the 2001 contract, was it perfect no, but what it was, was a better deal then the NWA mechs contract. Hopefully we get offered a better deal then deltas mechs, hopefully DP and Kirby will offer the mechs the same type of deal as the FAs. .

Performing illegal work actions or withholding service to the pax or to a ghost riding supervisor will not only be unprofessional but dangerous to your career. Owens sounds like a guy I work with who tried to organize a sickout on his day off.

 

[jimntx]

public pity in a more and more union unfriendly world, for a south based company who offered an industry leading(or at least matching) contract? In this economy? 
 
 
Oh yeah that'll work. 

AMEN!  People who work at "real" jobs are really in there feeling sorry for f/as--particularly when they find out that the average f/a works about 14-15 days/month and makes north of $40/hr.  Granted we don't have 40 hour work weeks (thank goodness), but the public doesn't understand that concept.  They take the $40/hr and multiply it by the number of hours they work a week.  They look at the result of their math, and ponder "They're making $40/hr just to serve drinks and sell snacks?  What the heck are they complaining about?"
 
Yeah, yeah.  I know all about being a safety professional, not a drink server.  And, I know that as far as the FAA is concerned, that's my only reason for even being on the airplane.  However, my fondest wish is that the day I retire, I can say "You know, all that stuff we did every year at CQ training (the latest name for it) was a total waste of time.  I never needed any of it."  

 

[Duke787]

Not really, in 2018 you negotiate based on whats out there in the industry. Thats how it works under the RLA, you may want to read up on it. A PEB looks at what both parties are asking for and what the rest of the industry has and the history. Wages are at an all time low in real terms, and profits are at an all time high. If wages can take double digit delves then they can also take double digit increases. This deal adds an extra year onto what you have without granting AA the synergies it needs to reach maximum profitability. Its not as if the company has nothing to gain here. The company is not really in a position to say take it or leave it because they want the synergies. The question is what the the values, was AA giving you good numbers? The Union should demand the same methodology be used to calculate the value of profit sharing as they used to calculate the concessions they gave. Looking back, not forward. 
 
What you seem to forget is that for pretty much our entire lives there has been inflation, so time plays a big part in the height of the step you talk about. If the Union were to argue for a 2016 amendable date what would be the companies argument against it? Sure they have 2018 now, but that was struck with a different company that was in bankruptcy, not one making $4 billion year in profits, and how can the flight attendants at AA say they have a contract that meets the stated intent if it goes so many years beyond the amendable date of its comparator union? You do realize that up until the last few contract funds airline contracts were typically 2 year deals don't you? Well with the robust balance sheets the airline no longer can rage that it needs to show long term concessionary deals to survive. After all they don't have such deals with its largest expense-fuel.

So you're saying the FAs should have signed the TA in there by raising the bar for industry standard pay and work rules for FAs, But by voting down TA which you advocated for, because for some reason you think an arbitrator is going to give them a better/shorter contract with profit sharing.

You are all Over the place, please tell me you will not be negotiating on the behalf of the mechs. You'll demand outlandish contract demands and one of two things will happen 1) we wind up in arbitration, and wind up with an average instead of top pay or 2) the twu and AA delay talks for years (which has been done) only to sign a subpar long deal right at the end of a down economy think 1995 contract. You're going to keep us at subpar pay for years with your line of thinking.

 

[swamt]

This article below was put together last night and posted this morning.  I haven't seen it posted or talked about yet.  Parker is very adamant about moving on to arbitration.  As much as I hate to see this, he has to.  Otherwise it will give the Pilots an out if they do not come to a T/A the first time around as he also indicates this in the front part of this article.  It will also set the record for the mechanic nego's.  Reminds me a little of the Horton days, not all liked him but he was a straight shooter and followed thru with what he said will happen, which is exactly what Parker is doing now.  He is holding his ground for all the other groups to watch and learn, and using the F/A's as the example group.  Sorry that you guys will not have a second chance at it, and I really think the APFA did a fantastic job at going back for more raises after Delta's announcement.  A deal was made prior to all nego's and both sides agreed to follow it,  Parker would look bad in many ways if he were to not follow thru with what was agreed to.  I am also assuming they will now skip over that mediation step to get to arbitration...
 
American Airlines chief says contract will go to arbitration

 

[jimntx]

Parker is doing nothing more than expecting the f/as to comply with their side of the agreement--no TA or a no vote on an TA--we go to arbitration. Why should Parker give us another vote when we just gave back almost $100 million per year for the life of the contract? The stockholders would rightly be outraged.

There is a saying that you can't fix stupid, but maybe this lesson will teach some f/as not to depend upon Facebook for their contract information. I doubt it, but maybe. Problem with Facebook is that it spreads misinformation and lies much faster and to a wider audience than galley gossip.

 

[Buster CRC]

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/11/oops-doug-parker-explains-that-he-didnt-mean-it-like-it-came-out.html/

 

[eolesen]

 

[AANOTOK]

Not me! (ask me again this time next year)

 

[galley princess]

It was released that the company is giving the pilots yet another extension to negotiate.
 
That puts to bed the assertion that the Flight attendants shouldn't get another chance because it would be a "bad example". 
 
Indeed, I think that it is very likely that the company did propose another chance by proposing a re-vote.  Yet this was quashed by APFA, as they informed Mr. Parker that we would proceed to arbitration.
 
What's up, folks?
 
Is there any argument that flight attendants would be better off under the TA, than a 82 million less arbitration award?  Hasn't there been enough of an outcry that the Facebook bunch has largely been discredited?
 
AFA advocated for flight attendants, not always well, but in this instance they would seize the chance at a re-vote. 
 
What is going on?  Before you respond that the company released that the "Flight attendants would proceed to arbitration" please recognize the timeline.  That was AFTER DP said he would allow a re-vote.  APFA answered "we will go to arbitration", basically slamming that door. 
 
That is not advocacy, that is "take your medicine".  Well, guess what?  The US flight attendant approved the TA.  We do not need any medicine.  There is no desire for a divided group, however the comparison between the two is inevitable, as US just did all of this not too long ago.
 
APFA should be advocating for a re-vote, if that door is even still open.  If it's not, then it was slammed shut by APFA.
 
This is all going to come to a conclusion soon, however, as AA flight attendants live out whatever agreement we end up with, there should not be any illusions about  how we got there, and what was done and not done.