Is AMFA in Distress?

[ICEMAN]

And how many jobs have we lost since 2001? Along with agreeing to cut our compensation by 25% which in effect destroyed every job that was left.

Starting base pay for a mechanic is lower today than it was in 1982.

Massive layoffs are nothing new to this industtry, in fact when I first went into this industry it was expected that you would get laid off every now and then until you got enough seniority, but you came back because the pay was good. However those getting laid off now are for the most part not coming back and its out of choice.

As far as the AMFA contract at NWA they did not do much with the SCOPE because prior contracts under the IAM had let wages deteriorate so badly that wages were the primary concern. So the scope clause that was in place was set up by the IAM, just like the one at UAL, and like the one at SWA was set up by the IBT. AMFA wanted to improve SCOPE but the corrupt NMB told AMFA that they had to drop some of their demands or they would never release them, funny how the NMB never says that to an airline when they are making demands.

My God, Bobby, you can't get be serious. Now we hear
that the outsourcing fiasco permittted by the NWA/amfa
contract was really the IAM's fault because amfa left
scope alone in order to deal with wages. Not on you
life buddy. Over the years the IAM won a number of
arbitrations restricting outsourcing at NWA either by
arguing that the work could be done in house more
cheaply or that the outsourcing violated established
practice. amfa and its "experts" replaced all of this
with the "38%" alleged labor dollars "cap" on
outsourcing-a cap which the Association told the PEB
was comfortably above any level of outsourcing which
had ever occured at NWA before. The result was a
complete travesty and tragedy for the mechanics.

When amfa came on the property in 1999 there were
three heavy maintenance bases which were full up and
three of twelve check lines were outsourced. By the
summer of 2005, before the strike, Atlanta had been
closed, Dulute was at 30% capacity, MSP was half
full, and the majority of heavy checks had been
outsourced. All of this was well within the fictional
outsourcing limits negotiated by amfa even though more
than half the mechanic work force had been laid off.
This was because under the "labor dollars" concept the
cheaper the outside worker or the more expensive the
union worker the more outsourcing was allowed. This
was why NWA could impose force majeure layoffs on 3200
workers (only 75 of whom ever returned) and outsource
their work without ever violating the contract. By the
time the strike was called NWA had to replace
less than 2000 mechanics. It was the worst display of
incompetence by a union in the history airline labor.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bobby, Bobby, Bobby, your continuous rant has been the same for almost 3 years now. Get over it, or get on to something else. Beating the same old drum over and over means you only wear out the drum. The failures of labor in the airline business is well recorded. What is lacking by many who constantly harp and complain is that these problems began back in 1979, deregulation, when many of you were still kids or in the military. Labor has had a difficult time adapting to the ever changing work place. If anyone remembers history of Big Steel taking the hit back in the late 50s and early 60s, and the same struggle has been played out over and over in other industries, the UAW now has it's hands full with the Big 3. So it is time for those that want to stick it out and try to turn things around to try and do so, or for those that hate the place, be men and leave and make your way somewhere else. There was one smart woman back in April of 03 who said it best to the Union, "Bankruptcy is not where you want to be." Amen I say to that smart woman. I wish more of my brethren were listening. When you draw that line in the sand, and say no more, you better look over your shoulder to make sure everyone is behind you. What happened at NWA is a terrible event. Anyone who has been around the airline business a long time KNEW that NWA had a history of very hard nosed bargainning, they took more strikes than any other airline over the years. They were the biggest benefactor of the infamous "Mutual Aid Pact". Serious miscalculation on labors part to take a strike when they were aware of the conditions of the industry, after agreeing to so much farmouts. Are any of us aware of any arbitrations where the association challenged NWA on exceeding what was agreed too, and had the decision in their favor? So Bobby get on with things, you are getting old hat.

Nobody is forcing you to read what I post, dont like what you see, scroll on by, I wont be insulted.


One difference between US Steel and the airlines is that unlike what was happening to steel the airline industry is still expanding, despite some minor reduction in capacity at the present.

If all the steel workers had walked off the job it would be very easy to import what was needed, however if all the airline workers walked off the job the economy would be crippled. Thats another difference between what the steel workers went through and whats going on in the airlines.

My God, Bobby, you can't get be serious. Now we hear
that the outsourcing fiasco permittted by the NWA/amfa
contract was really the IAM's fault because amfa left
scope alone in order to deal with wages. Not on you
life buddy. Over the years the IAM won a number of
arbitrations restricting outsourcing at NWA either by
arguing that the work could be done in house more
cheaply or that the outsourcing violated established
practice. amfa and its "experts" replaced all of this
with the "38%" alleged labor dollars "cap" on
outsourcing-a cap which the Association told the PEB
was comfortably above any level of outsourcing which
had ever occured at NWA before. The result was a
complete travesty and tragedy for the mechanics.

When amfa came on the property in 1999 there were
three heavy maintenance bases which were full up and
three of twelve check lines were outsourced. By the
summer of 2005, before the strike, Atlanta had been
closed, Dulute was at 30% capacity, MSP was half
full, and the majority of heavy checks had been
outsourced. All of this was well within the fictional
outsourcing limits negotiated by amfa even though more
than half the mechanic work force had been laid off.
This was because under the "labor dollars" concept the
cheaper the outside worker or the more expensive the
union worker the more outsourcing was allowed. This
was why NWA could impose force majeure layoffs on 3200
workers (only 75 of whom ever returned) and outsource
their work without ever violating the contract. By the
time the strike was called NWA had to replace
less than 2000 mechanics. It was the worst display of
incompetence by a union in the history airline labor.

What was the result of our force majeure grievance?

How many jobs have been eliminated at AA since 2001, including TWA?

Isnt it true that before we gave our concessions NWA was still doing pretty good? Our concessions helped drag down the rest of the industry. Bankrupt carriers had to go back to their workers and ask for more concessions to try and get what AA got without going BK.

 

[Observer]

Bobby at one time I felt you had some good things to say, but some of the things you now espouse leave me stunned. Your unabashed defense for an organization that is teflon coated, no criticism sticks, is self serving. I have deep sympathy for the people who lost their careers, because of what? Aren't we all watchers and interested players in this business? Did anyone one of who has an interest in the labor movement know what was going to happened at NWA was akin to Jonestown? A suicide mission, a kamakazie attack. Was this a well managed staged event to show that the association had "balls" to lure others at other airlines to bring in the association? That one we will never know, but one thing for sure, the leaders of that strike walked away as geldings, lost the membership, lost the battle, lost the war, and invigorated management at other companies in many industries. This was a primer for all to learn. Know your limiltations, that leadership certainly didn't.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

Bobby at one time I felt you had some good things to say, but some of the things you now espouse leave me stunned. Your unabashed defense for an organization that is teflon coated, no criticism sticks, is self serving. I have deep sympathy for the people who lost their careers, because of what? Aren't we all watchers and interested players in this business? Did anyone one of who has an interest in the labor movement know what was going to happened at NWA was akin to Jonestown? A suicide mission, a kamakazie attack. Was this a well managed staged event to show that the association had "balls" to lure others at other airlines to bring in the association? That one we will never know, but one thing for sure, the leaders of that strike walked away as geldings, lost the membership, lost the battle, lost the war, and invigorated management at other companies in many industries. This was a primer for all to learn. Know your limiltations, that leadership certainly didn't.

With dumbasses like you Observer and Liceman,we would never would have won World War II. "Let's give Hitler(airline management) everything he wants and he'll leave us all alone. We can't storm(strike all the airlines) that beach, because they are shooting at us(RLA)."

So how low are you willing to go Observer? What is your limit on concessions? When will you take a stand and say NO MORE!?

 

[AMFAMAN]

How many jobs have been eliminated at AA since 2001, including TWA?

Over 8,000 and that is the company's and the twu's numbers.

 

[ICEMAN]

Nobody is forcing you to read what I post, dont like what you see, scroll on by, I wont be insulted.
One difference between US Steel and the airlines is that unlike what was happening to steel the airline industry is still expanding, despite some minor reduction in capacity at the present.

If all the steel workers had walked off the job it would be very easy to import what was needed, however if all the airline workers walked off the job the economy would be crippled. Thats another difference between what the steel workers went through and whats going on in the airlines.
What was the result of our force majeure grievance?

How many jobs have been eliminated at AA since 2001, including TWA?

Isnt it true that before we gave our concessions NWA was still doing pretty good? Our concessions helped drag down the rest of the industry. Bankrupt carriers had to go back to their workers and ask for more concessions to try and get what AA got without going BK.

Bob where is when the down fall began.
On May 18, 2001, 165 mechanics received lay off notices due to NWA’s restructuring; 55 mechanics went to the streets. The other 110 mechanics had to move to Atlanta to keep their jobs. NWA has shut down their Phoenix station. Those mechanics had to move to Minneapolis to keep jobs.

 

[ICEMAN]

Name: AmfaBoner
Email: My Point about the "Truck
Employer:
Station:
Date: Tuesday April 11, 2006
Time: 10:52:56 AM


Comments
First of all, thanks for letting me post. OK, let me wrap up my main point about the Billboard Truck. Let's go back a few years..1998 to 2001. Remember all the Amfa rhetoric..back when the amfanuts were on a roll..in thier "hayday'? "We have lawyers, we have our superior skill...We are so much better than the IAM..yadda yadda, etc.etc. Amfa will represent YOU and not a bunch of "Bag-Smashers"?...Remember all that amfa cheerleader chest thumping stuff from those years? OK, let's fast forward to today: 10,500 people out of work, a miserably failed strike, amfa "leaders" that quit and/or are in hiding. Where's all this great representation today? Where are these "lawyers"? After all that..and all those broken promises...We end up today with a damm Billboard Truck to hinge our hopes upon. It's mind-boggling. AND...If you went back to say, the year 2000...and told those amfanuts that on April 11, 2006, all we would have left would be a Billboard Truck they would have said you were crazy or trying to say how much better the IAM is. In typical amfanut style they would have tried to trounce you back then. But, that's the black and white truth of it. This is where we have gotten with amfa...A damm BILLBOARD TRUCK! Even the most ardent amfanut has to admit the grave mistake they made by pushing this two-bit Association down the rest of our collective throats. Are you amfanuts that blind and so removed from reality that you don't think about that??? I know one thing for sure...You amfanuts cannot HONESTLY and truthfully ever defend anything amfa has done as a positive. It won't work because the truth is in a symbol...That symbol is called a Billboard Truck. I rest my case

Amen!

 

[High Speed Steel]

I thought with all of the fun and such within this topic I might add one of my previous posts that I really think may be appropriate to the discussion......It is one of my favorites ........See below



Posted on: Sep 2 2004, 07:58 PM





Again I see the amfa faithful are trying to discredit the Scope of the TWU/AA agreement. So may I suggest a little experiment with a phrase commonly used when filling out grievances for our members which includes the outsourcing of work.

This is a violation of the TWU/AA labor agreement...!!!!

Result:
1. Strong statement which has won many arguments for the TWU in the arbitration process and has returned much of our work back in house over the years.

Now for part 2 of this experiment. Shall we try the same basic statement with the amfa/Northwest agreement..?

This is a violation of the amfa/Northwest labor agreement..!!!!

Result:
1. HUH????????


---------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

 

[j7915]

With dumbasses like you Observer and Liceman,we would never would have won World War II. "Let's give Hitler(airline management) everything he wants and he'll leave us all alone. We can't storm(strike all the airlines) that beach, because they are shooting at us(RLA)."

So how low are you willing to go Observer? What is your limit on concessions? When will you take a stand and say NO MORE!?

What are you drinking? I'd like some too, that way I will quit being concerned, in the long run we are all dead.

AMFA @ NWA negotiated that wonderful 38% outsource cap. Before, they had a blanket no outsource policy, the IAM and the company horse traded and the amts generally came out on top. Just like that famous letter from CR Smith regarding in-house work set at a level that allows steady employment and makes economic sense.
No more, AMFA gave NWA a floor of 38% of something to start out with, so regardless of the economics the numbers could be massaged.

Bob Owens keeps asking about the layoffs at AA, yet he never answers the question about the real labor rates for SWA overhaul amts, want your cake and eat it too?

You all bad mouth the TWU's lack of strength, yet together with the other unions, Carty got fired and Arpey backed down from the benefits proposals. Not a bad record given the economics and politics of the day.

But then all the AMFA pushers here in Tulsa were more upset over a BJ in the Oval Office than a Chickenhawk with gutless relatives in the WH. So they voted for the holy trinity of the conservative cause, and the legacy of Saint Ronnie; instead of teaching their kids at home and voting their paycheck.

 

[Kev3188]

Bob where is when the down fall began.
On May 18, 2001, 165 mechanics received lay off notices due to NWA’s restructuring; 55 mechanics went to the streets. The other 110 mechanics had to move to Atlanta to keep their jobs. NWA has shut down their Phoenix station. Those mechanics had to move to Minneapolis to keep jobs.

PHX-along with TPA, MIA, and PDX- were all reopened to AMT's (plant maintenance was handled separately) after AMFA won in arbitration.

 

[aafsc]

AMFA was the only union to challenge the illegal Force Majure layoffs at any carrier period! All the other airline unions just let airline management get away with it. AMFA did win some of the Force majure cases that it fought. Oh by the way what ever happened to the TWU Force Majure layoff case at AA? We still have thousands of mechanics on the street here at AA and are about to add another 600 to that number.

Thanks to the TWU this once proud industry has been reduced to a smoking hole in the ground. The TWU agreed to the "B" scale in 1983 and created a new class of worker in this country. The snowball effect insued and now everybody is stabbing everybody else in the back to get a poverty line job at an airline and other industries. It is only a matter of time before the wheels come off the US economy because of the effect started by the TWU.

Princess, the TWU did not turn this "once proud industry" into a smoking hole in the ground; deregulation did, along with Frank Lorenzo, Carl Ichan, and the other corporate raiders. You can also blame Peoples Express, Northeastern, Spirit, and Jetblue. As far as the wheels coming off the US economy, it is just plain outlandish to blame that on the TWU. I agree with you that the wheels of this economy will come off but it will be because of the record level of debt piled up by the Bush administration due to the war and continuing presence in Iraq while he gives tax cut after tax cut to the wealthy, The rebuilding of New Orleans to the tune of tens of billions of dollars (where spending between $5-$6 billion to rebuild the levees before the storm would have prevented New Orleans' destruction), and lower taxes from the middle class because of falling wages and higher medical costs due to a never ending stream of illegal immigration and outsourcing.

 

[Observer]

Princess, I won't lower myself into the name calling business. Several others have chimed in on this subject with much more knowledge than I, so I gladly defer to my UNION brothers or sisters. When our fellow employees were murdered in the cockpits and cabins of 4 airplanes on 9/11, the world changed forever. The labor arena changed again. But the traveling public, while impacted by security measures still will seek out the lowest possible fare, the cheapest fare, but still expect to be treated well even though they should know the ailment of the airline business, it is in the papers all the time..........maybe they have a short attention span or are too busy with making their own ends meet to be cocnerned about the airline employee. To be successful on a strike you need support from many areas.....public support helps many times to win the day....some of the comments here over the years are laughable, like the NMB is crooked.........some of you posters need to change careers and become stand up comedians, or write a book like "The World According to the Princess". Entertaining but not much substance.

 

[ICEMAN]

PHX-along with TPA, MIA, and PDX- were all reopened to AMT's (plant maintenance was handled separately) after AMFA won in arbitration.

NWA could impose force majeure layoffs on 3200
workers (only 75 of whom ever returned) and outsource
their work without ever violating the contract. You are saying that this is a victory?

 

[AMFAMAN]

The layoff news must be really bAAd to have all of these twu bubba believers come out at the same time. :down:

 

[aafsc]

The layoff news must be really bAAd to have all of these twu bubba believers come out at the same time. :down:

How bad is the news for the AMFA aircraft mechanics at NWA? $70 in unions dues (much higher than the IAM) and all they have to show for it is a stupid billboard truck! At least during the EAL strike, the IAM had rented part of a building to conduct all union business including the strike. What did AMFA conduct their strike from? Was it a tent and/or an old trailer? During the EAL strike, the members received $100 a week in strike benefits which means that over the course of the 2 year strike, the average member received $9,600 from the IAM . AMFA had no strike fund! During the EAL strike, Bryan worked very hard to bring new investors/ management to EAL and almost succeeded twice. Has Delle done anything similar? At EAL, Bryan held meetings periodically during the two year strike to keep the members informed. The AMFA membership at NW are desperately trying to figure out where their leadership is. At EAL, Lorenzo tried to outsource ALL ramp jobs by spinning the ramp off into a separate entity called AGS. The IAM's legal team successfully prevented Lorenzo from doing this as to where AMFA had lost it's biggest and most important cases. I know that the IAM today is not the same as it was during the EAL times. But a good comparison for today is to compare the IAM's representation of the ground workers at NW and it's result to the way AMFA conducted it's representational duties to it's members and the subsequent results. If I was an AMFA member, I would be asking, "What exactly did we get for our dues and where did all that money go?"