Is AMFA in Distress?

[MCI transplant]

And you call this "Superior Airline Management"?

<_< You know!---- I wonder how many of these clowns aa has on their payroll? Here's one why aa could save $$! What a waste!!The man said "double what we make!" yea! That's what he said! "Double!" aa has it's own Gestapo to monitor the boards!!!! Friends TWA may be out of business, but they never would have considered stooping to this level!!! I know! ff:

 

[eolesen]

Two times nothing (what AMFA Dave was getting paid for his participation on PBB) is still nothing, just in case they didn't have that on the final exam for your license(s).

Hackman, I have no hatred for AMFA or its members. I've never been a big fan of political appointees regardless of the environment, and if I were a represented employee, I'd want the same level of accountability that the APFA and APA offers its members with regard to their leadership.

But forgive me if I don't have a lot of respect for their track record. They've played hardball and lost. Maybe it's just my perception, but whatever disdain you have for corporate or industrial unionism, the IAM and TWU seem to have done a better at keeping its members employed.

 

[TWU informer]

But forgive me if I don't have a lot of respect for their track record. They've played hardball and lost. Maybe it's just my perception, but whatever disdain you have for corporate or industrial unionism, the IAM and TWU seem to have done a better at keeping its members employed.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, the corporate union flunkies have kept the troops employed.

Of course, having an over manned work force, and paying an over paid management analyst to monitor internet bulletin boards is sound airline management strategy and deserving of 6 figure bonuses. Bring out them huge bonuses and pat each other on the back....Job well done! Not to mention, that the latest corporate propaganda indicates that the other carriers have cut cost "better" than AA, and so we must all step up to the plate again. Kind of two sided isn't it? On one hand TWU and IAM has done better, on the other hand, we must play catch up to those that went the other direction. This aint over yet, so don't keep claiming the AA/TWU strategy was the best path.

Go tell the TWA, Eastern, and PanAm mechanics about how the industrial corporate union jack asses have kept their members employed.

Oops, that is the past, and we all know too well now, that the past is off limits when debating unionism.

What gets me, is the claim of saving the jobs with the concessions, while attrtion has proven beyond a doubt that the airline ate the wages of the overage of manpower, while every quarter but one has seen staggering industry losses. I would say it was more like the Federal, City, State, Corporate Welfare for jobs that saved employment at AA more so than the Union Stooges who now manage the corporation.

How much you figure the total dollar amount has been to have the 3 plus years of the over manned work force being paid and families heath insured by the self insured airline. Put a dollar figure on that one and report it in the Wall Street Journal. WOW! What superior management skills these AA Exec's have!

IT's ALL ABOUT THE JOBS BROTHER! You can eat fish heads and rice for dinner, but you have a job don't you?

 

[Bob Owens]

Two times nothing (what AMFA Dave was getting paid for his participation on PBB) is still nothing, just in case they didn't have that on the final exam for your license(s).

Hackman, I have no hatred for AMFA or its members. I've never been a big fan of political appointees regardless of the environment, and if I were a represented employee, I'd want the same level of accountability that the APFA and APA offers its members with regard to their leadership.

But forgive me if I don't have a lot of respect for their track record. They've played hardball and lost. Maybe it's just my perception, but whatever disdain you have for corporate or industrial unionism, the IAM and TWU seem to have done a better at keeping its members employed.

Actually their track record it pretty good. The NWA guys are still on strike, strikes have lasted longer and NWA, despite a big cutback in the schedule appears to be having all sorts of maintenance related service problems.

Over at UAL most of the job losses were when the IAM was in place.

Over at SWA there have been no layoffs since AMFA went in.


But thats only recent events.

You leave out the fact that AMFA represented mechanics at NWA set the standard with around a 40% increase in 2001, while IAM represented members at NWA got much less. The contract that AMFA won even forced unions like the TWU to allow mechanics to recieve much bigger raises than other classifications of workers within the same union-something that the TWU never allowed before.

The fact is that the majority of mechanics who lost their jobs were not represented by AMFA when they lost their job.

Now if you go back even further AMFA made other important gains for mechanics at Ozark. Industry leading wages and benifits and when OZARK was bought by TWU they kept all their seniority, unlike the TWA guys who went to AA.

So the fact is that AMFA does have a good track record overall. They have taken a hit at NWA, but the fact is the strike is still in effect. We didnt lose WWII just because we lost at Pearl Harbor.

 

[eolesen]

You give AMFA all the credit for the scope language was negotiated by the IBT before the raid at SWA, yet you point out that the IAM is who was responsible for job losses at UAL.

Which way is it?

If you have to go back 20 years to Ozark, you're living in a fantasy world. They've negotiated two contracts as far as I can tell -- SWA and NWA. Alaska's went into arbitration, and that ultimately allowed the outsourcing of heavy maintenance.

I also keep hearing you and others say AMFA struck NWA because they wouldn't be able to present a contract that eliminated half of its members jobs, yet that's exactly what happened with their previous contract --- it essentially traded wages for allowing the company to outsource almost all of its heavy maintenance.

That's their track record, Bob.

I can't say that I'm too impressed as an outsider looking in, even with my pro-management bias.

 

[Bob Owens]

You give AMFA all the credit for the scope language was negotiated by the IBT before the raid at SWA, yet you point out that the IAM is who was responsible for job losses at UAL.

Which way is it?

You tell me, you are the one making things up, you may as well answer your own questions.

I didnt say that AMFA negotited the scope clause at SWA, I said that the UAL guys hit the street while the IAM was in place and that over at SWA nobody has hit the street.

If you have to go back 20 years to Ozark, you're living in a fantasy world.

No, its the past, and thats what was brought up.

undefinedThey've negotiated two contracts as far as I can tell -- SWA and NWA. Alaska's went into arbitration, and that ultimately allowed the outsourcing of heavy maintenance.

And so did the IAMs contracts at UAL and USAIR and so does the TWUs at AMR.

I also keep hearing you and others say AMFA struck NWA because they wouldn't be able to present a contract that eliminated half of its members jobs, yet that's exactly what happened with their previous contract --- it essentially traded wages for allowing the company to outsource almost all of its heavy maintenance.

Which conttact is that?

I can't say that I'm too impressed as an outsider looking in, even with my pro-management bias.

So you were not impressed with the contract where they went from $25/hr to $35? Then you arent impressed with any union, unless concessions are what impresses you, since as you admit you have a pro-management bias.

 

[aafsc]

Bob, I think that FM means the AMFA 2001 contract at NW; when in 2001 NW had 10,500 AMFA members and that number was reduced by more than half to just 4,400 right before the strike. So it is obvious that about 6,100 AMFA represented jobs at NW were eliminated while that contract was in force. Some will claim that the IAM allowed outsourcing at NW. If this was true, then why did NW keep all of them on payroll with OT if they could have gotten rid of them under the IAM? Also, if they inherited this farm out language from the IAM contract, why was it not taken care of during that 2001 AMFA negotiated contract? The 2001 contract was a totally AMFA one.

As far as UA, same thing. If indeed the AMFA at UA inherited the IAM contract there, then why did not AMFA change the farm out language while UA was in bankruptcy under 1113c? Why did they not make a stand for $60 an hour? Or $40 (like UPS), $35 (like SWA) or even $32 (like AA)? After all, one would think that since they outsourced all their heavy checks to cheaper third party contractors, they could afford it (like SWA). AMFA was always saying "we are better off in bankruptcy". If so, why did they bring back these substandard wages(less than AA) and lost pensions(AA still has theirs)? Since they said that they prefer bankruptcy, why did they not strike at UA like they did at NW?

 

[ICEMAN]

I don't have the time or inclination to respond to
every piece of misinformation or departure from common
sense on this Board, but when Bob Owens claims that
amfa has a good record at job preservation it is just
too far a departure from the truth to let go. After
failing to prepare for the strike at NWA (its only
strike fund came from one of those terrible industrial
unions, the UAW) 10,000 jobs were lost on AMFA's
watch, and close to 6,000 were gone before the strike
even began after amfa became the only union to lose a
force majeure arbitration based on the Iraq war. The
ASA mechanic and related were cut in half after all
heavy maintenace, plant maintenace, and cleaning were
outsourced. The exact same thing happened at Mesaba
except the mechanic work force is about one third what
it was in 2003. Independence is gone along with all of
the remaining amfa jobs, and ATA also wiped out its
heavy maintenance and more than half of its mechanics
on amfa's watch. There is nothing in the new narrowly
ratified contract which will bring it back.
At UAL, after Delle's famous "we have a gun at our
head letter" computer and most cleaning work was wiped
out along with most restrictions against overseas
maintenance negotiated by the IAM. That was the same
amfa agreement that allowed for the termination of the
pension plan. You can argue about whether more jobs
were lost under the IAM or amfa bankruptcy agreement,
but the IAM, unlike Delle, never told its members that
the way to deal with the threat of concessions in
bankruptcy was to let the Company go bankrupt and then
prove its case in Court (which amfa didn't do anyway).
As for SWA, every work group at that Company has been
expanded and the mechanic and related grew just as
fast under the IBT. The idea that amfa has done
anything different or better than any other group on
the property is just nonsense.

 

[eolesen]

Bob, I think that FM means the AMFA 2001 contract at NW; when in 2001 NW had 10,500 AMFA members and that number was reduced by more than half to just 4,400 right before the strike. So it is obvious that about 6,100 AMFA represented jobs at NW were eliminated while that contract was in force.

Yes, that's the contract I was referring to. Thanks for the added detail on just how many jobs were lost.

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes, that's the contract I was referring to. Thanks for the added detail on just how many jobs were lost.

And how many jobs have we lost since 2001? Along with agreeing to cut our compensation by 25% which in effect destroyed every job that was left.

Starting base pay for a mechanic is lower today than it was in 1982.

Massive layoffs are nothing new to this industtry, in fact when I first went into this industry it was expected that you would get laid off every now and then until you got enough seniority, but you came back because the pay was good. However those getting laid off now are for the most part not coming back and its out of choice.

As far as the AMFA contract at NWA they did not do much with the SCOPE because prior contracts under the IAM had let wages deteriorate so badly that wages were the primary concern. So the scope clause that was in place was set up by the IAM, just like the one at UAL, and like the one at SWA was set up by the IBT. AMFA wanted to improve SCOPE but the corrupt NMB told AMFA that they had to drop some of their demands or they would never release them, funny how the NMB never says that to an airline when they are making demands.

 

[FWAAA]

Starting base pay for a mechanic is lower today than it was in 1982.

You keep posting this irrelevant tidbit, but I got news for you. It doesn't matter what the starting pay is, since AA may never hire another mechanic off the street. What ought to matter to you is the top of scale, since that's where everyone is anyway.

 

[TWU informer]

You keep posting this irrelevant tidbit, but I got news for you. It doesn't matter what the starting pay is, since AA may never hire another mechanic off the street. What ought to matter to you is the top of scale, since that's where everyone is anyway.

Irrelevent? "Never hire another mechanic off the street". Everyone is topped out?

Has the company union been informed of these revelations?

 

[Observer]

Bobby, Bobby, Bobby, your continuous rant has been the same for almost 3 years now. Get over it, or get on to something else. Beating the same old drum over and over means you only wear out the drum. The failures of labor in the airline business is well recorded. What is lacking by many who constantly harp and complain is that these problems began back in 1979, deregulation, when many of you were still kids or in the military. Labor has had a difficult time adapting to the ever changing work place. If anyone remembers history of Big Steel taking the hit back in the late 50s and early 60s, and the same struggle has been played out over and over in other industries, the UAW now has it's hands full with the Big 3. So it is time for those that want to stick it out and try to turn things around to try and do so, or for those that hate the place, be men and leave and make your way somewhere else. There was one smart woman back in April of 03 who said it best to the Union, "Bankruptcy is not where you want to be." Amen I say to that smart woman. I wish more of my brethren were listening. When you draw that line in the sand, and say no more, you better look over your shoulder to make sure everyone is behind you. What happened at NWA is a terrible event. Anyone who has been around the airline business a long time KNEW that NWA had a history of very hard nosed bargainning, they took more strikes than any other airline over the years. They were the biggest benefactor of the infamous "Mutual Aid Pact". Serious miscalculation on labors part to take a strike when they were aware of the conditions of the industry, after agreeing to so much farmouts. Are any of us aware of any arbitrations where the association challenged NWA on exceeding what was agreed too, and had the decision in their favor? So Bobby get on with things, you are getting old hat.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

AMFA was the only union to challenge the illegal Force Majure layoffs at any carrier period! All the other airline unions just let airline management get away with it. AMFA did win some of the Force majure cases that it fought. Oh by the way what ever happened to the TWU Force Majure layoff case at AA? We still have thousands of mechanics on the street here at AA and are about to add another 600 to that number.

Thanks to the TWU this once proud industry has been reduced to a smoking hole in the ground. The TWU agreed to the "B" scale in 1983 and created a new class of worker in this country. The snowball effect insued and now everybody is stabbing everybody else in the back to get a poverty line job at an airline and other industries. It is only a matter of time before the wheels come off the US economy because of the effect started by the TWU.

 

[Observer]

Oh princess your petticoats are showing, the only force Majuere that the association was succesful on and only partly was the SAARS arguement. You need to read it, so you can be enlightened. Every other one and I think there were 2 of note were losers. So your bias is showing once again, Just as your other comments are suspect. The TWU force majuere was lost as was the APA, and others. Your local can get you a copy, if you desire one.