Industrial vs. Craft

[TWU informer]

One thing that the Industrial Unionist have said that is true, is that we will never go away.

Well you are damn right that the idea of having mechanics representing and leading mechanics will never go away.

Institutional Politics of the industrial unions to save dues money and the bargaining power for the unskilled on the backs of the skilled will never cease to be an issue in the industry. NEVER!

Man after Man, Mechanic after Mechanic, has spoken and thought the same as Ron Mitchell testified below.
And I have heard the same message from members from each of the Industrial Unions. TWU/IAM/IBT
It doesn't seem to matter which industrial union it is, the skilled member has the indentical concern and complaint.

Testimony of Ron Mitchell – AMFA/NWA Mechanic
Presidential Emergency Board Hearing
March 2001
Questioned by Lee Seham

2 Q. Did the certification of AMFA as the
3 collective bargaining representative of Mechanics
4 and Related employees play any role in your
5 decision to remain in the profession?

6 A. It did. I would say, like many other
7 Mechanics, that we felt that this was a -- our last
8 chance; that the sense on the floor is that if --
9 if AMFA isn't able to turn this industry around,
10 then the industry isn't worth staying in.
11 Up until recently, we were held
12 hostage in these large industrial unions where my
13 bargaining skills, my skills were used to bargain
14 for the unskilled. And I think many of us were
15 willing to see how we were able to bargain
16 effectively when we are on our own. I think we
17 assumed that that bargaining power wasn't going to
18 be interfered with, and now that doesn't seem to be
19 the case.

20 Q. During the IAM's course or duration of
21 representation of Mechanics and Related employees,
22 did you sense any hostility in the IAM towards
23 Aviation Technicians?

24 A. Yeah. There was -- there was quite a bit
0280
1 of hostility. We were -- we were frequently
2 ridiculed by our own IAM representatives for
3 wanting more than our own fellow Union brothers.
4 We -- many of the anecdotes I've already heard
5 yesterday and today that, you know, a loaf of bread
6 costs the same, and that baggage handlers work hard
7 too, and I'm sure they do work hard, but I don't
8 think they bear responsibility or even fathom the
9 responsibility that we have on a day-to-day basis.
10 And, yeah, there was quite a bit of
11 hostility. I think the industrial unions sense, as
12 the Company does, that if AMFA is successful in our
13 endeavor, that the industrial unions, as far as
14 representing Aircraft Technicians, will be a thing
15 of the past.

16 Q. In your experience with representation
17 under the IAM, did the IAM provide much focus on
18 safety issues, aircraft safety issues?

19 A. No. None whatsoever. I am -- I'm a member
20 of the standards committee, which is a volunteer
21 position in our local. I undertake that, in
22 addition to my normal duties as a Crew Chief, and
23 it is -- it is a cornerstone of PAMA's philosophy
24 that we concentrate on our own professional
0281
1 standards; that we work with the FAA in keeping our
2 members up to speed on the changes in manuals and
3 procedures and in dealings with the FAA and
4 following the Company's regulations.
5 I know for sure that the IAM didn't
6 have anything like that at our level. Safety to
7 the IAM was pretty much cornered on safety out in
8 the work environment; how to use fire extinguishers
9 and wear reflective clothing and that type of
10 thing.
11 They, I think they weren't
12 concerned with those types of issues, because
13 aircraft safety was not -- was not a concern for
14 the majority of the membership. The majority of
15 the membership was comprised of gate agents and
16 security guards and baggage handlers and clerical
17 people, and they aren't really concerned with
18 aircraft safety, so it wasn't a concern of the IAM.

19 Q. Can you describe the morale on the floor
20 in Minneapolis among Aviation Technicians?

21 A. Well, I would say that morale is low, but
22 each time that I think that morale has hit a new
23 low point, the Company proves me wrong.
24 So I would say that it's -- it's as
0282
1 low as I've ever seen it.
2 This entire process has robbed us
3 of our hope and our belief that if we followed this
4 process, which just seems to have no end, and we
5 jump through all the hoops in the system, that we
6 would be racing the government, who would be adding
7 hoops at the other end for us to jump through.
8 So morale is definitely at an
9 all-time low, and as a Crew Chief who has a crew to
10 motivate, that's difficult, and also, as a member
11 of the standards committee, that concerns me as
12 well.

13 Q. Are you aware of any indications that
14 Northwest Mechanics and Related employees have been
15 especially productive over the last few years?

16 A. I think that the videotape was -- was nice
17 the other day, but I -- if I'm not mistaken, we've
18 won just about every award that there is to win for
19 a maintenance staff as a whole. We have taught
20 this industry how to perform on time, flying the
21 oldest fleet in the industry, and I believe, if I'm
22 not mistaken, that we -- we won seven out of ten
23 on-time awards year after year through the 1990s.
24 And we take great pride in that.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

That testimony is an accurate representation of how we all felt at NWA at the time. I was not at MSP, but at a smaller line station as a crew chief.

Many of us acted on what we warned; taking our skills to another employer.

The best move I ever made. I look in the mirror every day and do not see a bottom feeding scab.

 

[aapitbull]

You will have an option when the TA is passed pitbull. Get your resume updated, take the early out, and apply to either Southwest or Alaska. Remember at Southwest it has only been extensions of the agreement negotiated by the Teamsters that you will fall under if lucky enough to get the nod to enter their work environment. As some friendly advice, you shouldn't include your activities and comments from this website as part of your resume they may sour those companies interest in you... B)

Can you tell me how many people will be allowed to take the buyout because there seems to be alot of dissagreement as to the number on the TWU side you will have to forgive me I have been a little to busy trying to throw their ass off the property to read their latest rag. Yea ten dollars an hour worth of extensions the opening of a fifth line of overhaul and the DEN maintenance station and a succeful intergration of Air Tran where both sides passed it by a vote of the respective memberships go tell somebody else that B.S. By the way I think I am voting on a six year extension of the 2003 concessions as we speak am I not?

 

[Raptorman49]

How I wish this were true Raptorman. These guys never go away and the fighting and turmoil always persists. We still have our crowd here at United that refuse to let things lie, and they keep the workplace in a constant state of frustration. While they get very little traction and we are all tired of hearing them squawk, they never stop. Regardless of what happens, I hope you can get at least 10 years of peace, but I have my doubts.

Oh your at United, there are two guys on here from United that keep saying that United hates the Teamsters & wants AMFA back is there any truth to that ?? What is the percentage that prefers the Teamsters over AMFA there in your opinion.
I went to the United forum one time looking to see if there were any threads about Mechanics wanting to get rid of the Teamsters but couldn't find any so kind of thought that was a sign that most there are content with having the Teamsters.

One last question Dave accused you of not being licensed & of being an appointed Leader in the Teamsters are either of these true ??
I would rather have the truth over wild accusations anytime.

 

[TWU informer]

That testimony is an accurate representation of how we all felt at NWA at the time. I was not at MSP, but at a smaller line station as a crew chief.

Many of us acted on what we warned; taking our skills to another employer.

The best move I ever made. I look in the mirror every day and do not see a bottom feeding scab.

Thank You for input.
I have a question for you.

After what happened at Northwest Airlines, would you suggest the AMT's of the industry stay in any Industrial Union or would you suggest the we sign cards and support AMFA?

 

[Raptorman49]

From page 5.

1. Teamsters have a completely democratic process starting with its International General President. Every member has a chance to decide our leadership and direction by voting from the initial nominations chosen by elected delegates, all the way to the final election process. Ballots are sent to each and every Teamster member. The Teamsters General Executive Board is voted on by the membership every five years. One member, one vote!

2. Local Officers are also elected within the Teamsters. Business agents in some Locals are elected as part of the executive committee, and at other Locals the most experienced and qualified are hired by the elected Principal Officer. This ensures the best person for the job and all the positions are held to high membership standards. If a BA does not meet the minimum expectations of the membership and the principal officer, said BA is gone. Proof is at UAL in SFO.

3. IBT executive board members and principal officers come from many areas of labor. The all bring their unique expertise and professional experience. Many of the Local Presidents are business professionals, such as Pilots and Lawyers.

4. The pay and benefits for each Local Employed Officer and Business Agent is stated in each of the Locals By Laws and are available to each member.

5. Teamsters conduct private professional negotiations, with experienced negotiators. There is no circus act and the company does not know our hand by reading it on the web. Our negotiators are full time, and negotiate agreements on an ongoing basis. These negotiations are supplemented with the Business agents who are in direct contract with the members, and with the members themselves through elected or chosen negotiating team members. These members too are held to the highest Teamster standards. The negotiating team is responsible for accepting the company proposals, and the membership is allowed a vote. Our last contract at UAL, even though an large number of us hated our first proposal, at least the Teamsters had the decency to allow us to look at the companies beat offer and vote for ourselves.

6. IBT can hold and support a strike and picket line. We have a huge war chest in the international strike fund which has amounted to over several million dollars. In addition, many Locals have their own strike fund and this money is paid IN ADDITION TO the international funds. Having a strike fund sends a message to the Employer that your Union is ready to take on a fight should it be necessary. While the money may not match your regular pay check, the money paid is much more than you might think. See how much you can expect by going to http://www.teamster....to Teamster.org . NWA strikers received nothing ($0.00) financial support from their Union.

7. Teamsters employ in house professionals who are dedicated solely to the members. There is no conflict of interest. Teamsters have their own in house fully staffed Legal, Safety and health, Economics and Contracts, Training and Development, and a dozen other departments all willing able and ready to help members when needed. Go to http://www.teamster.org and under the About Us tab, click on Departments to find out more.

8. Teamsters get involved in every aspect needed to benefit the members. Teamsters members are able to enjoy unique discounts, disaster relief aid, retiree assistance, job banks, and many other Teamster member privileges. You can get assistance and aid for many types of real life issues as a member of the Teamsters. You can also get good rates on credit cards if that's your thing. Teamsters also created the Teamster Airline Maintenance Coalition to discuss those issues immediately important to all airline mechanics. This group looks at issues outside the contracts such as outsourcing or new emerging FAA policies. All other Unions were invited to participate in collectively speaking up for our profession. The association refuses to take part or help in this collective movement.

9. Teamsters have many concerns. To better the life of the A&P mechanic and related is one of those concerns. Teamsters fight to improve working conditions, pay and benefits, and job security. Teamsters work in the negotiating rooms, board rooms, and in the offices of law makers to ensure top working conditions, benefits, and pay for all members. It takes a combination of many different fights to gain what’s right. After all, the company is fighting us constantly using weapons like the bankruptcy courts. Teamster concerns have to be broad based in order to fight for the members.
Additionally Teamsters represent many other industries outside of Aircraft Maintenance.

In 2009 the Teamster represented Pilots of Amerijet went out on strike. With only 7 aircraft and the company had no problem finding replacement pilots (the real definition of scabs) to continue flying. The other Teamster professions quickly came to these pilots aid. The headquarters were not cleaned or serviced, garbage pickup was halted, and parts were not delivered. In some of the cities served, even the airport cops are Teamsters and it was rumored that they too did unofficially supported the strike.

Unions in other countries supported the striking Teamster Pilots and made it difficult for the scab workers. The South American Government even stepped in supporting their country's labor unions and confiscated two aircraft because they did not have enough fuel to leave. The union employees tasked with providing fuel refused to cross a Teamster line. 17 striking Teamster Pilots received much more support than the thousands of striking NWA mechanics.

I see the Teamster logo everywhere, even on the ending credits for one of my favorite movies, Ironman. When a Teamster represented group goes out on strike, people know it, There is no mistaking a Teamster Picket Line.

10. Teamsters have open and direct communications. See for yourself at http://www.teamster.org and http://teamstermagazine.com

When the Teamster General President makes an announcement on labor, or backs a political candidate such as the US President, it is covered on the front pages and shown as the leading story of news casts.

Teamster members number over 1.4 million strong with hundreds of original represented contracts. More than all else, the Teamsters have the Financial capability of competeing against airlines.

There you have it, most of us don't have time to research Union business we pay the Union to handle Union business, but I knew there had to be some Teamster guys somewhere that also researched Union business, good to see the other side of the story, welcome to the forum Anomaly, your doing a great job of showing the other side.

 

[TWU informer]

Testimony of Steve MacFarlane
2001 AMFA/NWA Presidential Emergency Board Hearing

10 BY MR. SEHAM:
11 Q. Would you recommend aircraft maintenance as
12 a career to young men and women today?
13 A. Man, I hate answering this question because
14 I wish I could say yes, but I can't.
15 My son, 20 years old, very, very
16 capable at being an Aircraft Mechanic. I can't.
17 The pay that he would be getting going into this,
18 he can't sustain himself, just like I can't and --
19 the -- he's very talented with computers, just like
20 most young guys are today, young women and men.
21 That's really what drives these -- you know, I was
22 talking about when I was a young guy growing up. I
23 mean, it wasn't uncommon to drive around the
24 neighborhood and half the teenagers in the
0382
1 neighborhood had the hood up on their car working
2 on it, working on something.
3 Look in your neighborhoods today.
4 If you see kids, they're driving in really nice
5 cars that they're not maintaining. That's because
6 they're all inside working on computers, playing
7 video games. We are not building a generation of
8 skilled craftmen to do anything.
9 Welders, plumbers, all of these
10 crafts are hurting because they are not building a
11 generation of people that work with their hands and
12 create things.
13 What we have is a generation of
14 young kids that are coming up that are very, very
15 talented at computers and cyberspace. But who's
16 going to fix our airplanes?
17 Could I possibly suggest somebody
18 enter this industry right now? No. They're just
19 financially -- there's too many negatives.
20 And I'll give you some examples of
21 that. Some of the guys have already talked about
22 it. Obviously you're going to be working odd
23 shifts. You're going to work every holiday; you're
24 going to probably have Tuesday, Wednesday off;
0383
1 you're going to have no social life; you're not
2 going to be able to spend any time with your family
3 and friends like you used to, because, guess what?
4 You left town.
5 I left Las Vegas. I had to go to
6 Salt Lake. I left my wife, my wife carrying our
7 first child, to go to Salt Lake.
8 There are so many negatives that
9 you have, too, over time, in order to take this on
10 as a career. Those are just the obvious ones. All
11 of the chemicals, fluids, solvents that we work
12 with, most of them are known carcinogens. Most of
13 them will kill you if you don't protect yourself
14 properly.
15 You also have a situation where no
16 matter where you find yourself, whether you're on
17 the flight line or whether you're in the hangars,
18 your hearing is constantly being attacked by
19 rivets. Again, drum matters, all of these have an
20 effect on your hearing. So it's not uncommon to
21 see an older Aircraft Mechanic with a couple of
22 hearing aids.
23 These are things that we just take
24 for granted because it's part of what we do when we
0384
1 were getting paid a pretty decent wage. The
2 benefits, all the benefits, we considered that to
3 be a fair balance. When you take away all the
4 compensation, all the negatives still remain.
5 There's not a lot left. And that's why, no,
6 there's no way, you know, that you could make that
7 suggestion to a young person today.
8 Q. What are some of the referenced lost
9 benefits? What are some of the concessions that
10 you have given up?
11 A. We only have a half-hour left, right?
12 Q. Start.
13 A. It's lengthy. I'll give you the ones that
14 I can take off the top of my head. It's like what
15 Vic said, but I think I could add to some of
16 those.
17 The first would have been the
18 top-out of pay. When I hired out in Hughes
19 Airwest, you had an 18-month top-out. It's now
20 five years. Some of the airlines, ten years to top
21 out. We went from 18 months to 5 years.
22 Another one would be retirement.
23 Sick leave, yeah, payout for a retiree, that was
24 about a $20 check that a retiree could expect when
0385
1 retiring at Hughes Airwest in 1979. That was given
2 away during concessions. It was during the merger
3 of Northwest that we lost that.
4 The paid lunch on day shift, we had
5 that; we lost it during concessions. Reserve sick
6 leave is an item that we had that we, again, gave
7 up during these concessions. License premium. We
8 don't get paid time and a half or any overtime for
9 our license premium. That was something that we
10 got that we've lost.
11 The Company used to pay for
12 laundering our uniforms. That was given up.
13 Medical benefits, life insurance, both of those
14 things have been minimized tremendously over the
15 time.
16 In fact, like Vic was talking
17 about, the gentleman with the $39 check, I have a
18 similar story. It's not quite as bad as that, but
19 here's a guy that's paying his medical benefits
20 today, where the industry used to pay for those. A
21 retiree didn't have to pay for that. We've lost
22 that.
23 We've lost the jump seat
24 privilege. We all used to be able to ride in the
0386
1 jump seat as a regular course. You could -- it
2 really made it easier to be able to travel. And
3 although it may seem like a small factor, for me it
4 was a lifesaver. It allowed me to fly back and
5 forth to Las Vegas when my wife was pregnant. Free
6 travel, everybody thinks it's great. There's
7 nothing free about it anymore. It used to be.
8 When I hired on, it was a free privilege.
9 Travel, you can't get around
10 anymore, because the flights, all the flights are
11 full. The fares have dropped to the point that
12 where everyone can afford to fly now. I feel we've
13 helped to subsidize those low fares.
14 That's another thing we gave up is
15 our ability to fly and to travel. And, of course,
16 that's one of the big hooks for everybody. Oh, I
17 want to work for an airline because I can fly for
18 free. It's an exercise in frustration if you've
19 ever tried to non-rev on an airline.
20 And then, lastly, probably the
21 biggest thing that I can think of is the 38 months
22 of give-backs that we gave to Northwest Airlines
23 from 1993 to 1996. We gave 12 and a half percent
24 of our pay and six days of vacation. Now, that 12
0387
1 and a half percent pay came off of 1991 wages, not
2 1993 wages. So we already had taken or had gone
3 two years without raises when we gave the 12 and a
4 half percent pay cut.
5 And then you got to 1996, and, yes,
6 we got a three-percent raise. There was some
7 conversation about that. We got a three-percent
8 raise on our 1991 wages. Hardly something to, you
9 know, bang a drum about. And these other raises
10 Northwest Airlines has given us were also increases
11 on those 1991 wages as well.
12 Let's just take the thing forward.
13 If you'll bear with me a little bit, 1991 wages; we
14 got a three-percent raise. The snap-back, we had
15 to fight them, by the way, for that. The Pilots
16 had taken them to court to get the full amount of
17 that.
18 In '98, I believe it was, they gave
19 us another four percent raise. So let's apply that
20 four percent raise on our 1991 wages that have the
21 three percent. So, you know, just put in inflation
22 terms; you're making 1993 wages now in 1998. And
23 then the 6.7 percent raise that was also given to
24 us only went to some of our members. There was a
0388
1 lot of our members that didn't get that 6.7 percent
2 raise, which means a lot of our members today had a
3 seven percent raise in 2001 on their 1991 wages.
4 This is not a pretty picture. And
5 you can begin to see why this is such an important
6 thing for us. If we don't recover our wages now
7 during this time, it's never going to happen. And
8 that's why we're fighting the fight of our lives.
9 That's why all these men are in this room today --
10 and women. Sorry, Kim. We are fighting for our
11 economic freedom, our economic health.
12 And I'm sorry I got off the track a
13 little bit, but it all ties into the concessions
14 that we've given. That is the ultimate concession;
15 we have given away our standard of living.
16 In 1991 we were making $22 an
17 hour. In 2001 I'm making $22 an hour. I can't
18 live on this anymore. There's been a 35 percent
19 inflation erosion on my family's ability to sustain
20 ourselves.
21 Q. How has that impacted on your personal
22 lifestyle?
23 A. Well, what it's done is it's forced my wife
24 to go back to work. We had always prided ourselves
0389
1 on the fact that she could stay home and raise our
2 children. That was extremely important to us. And
3 fortunately, she was able to do that for the
4 earlier years.
5 But it's also put me in a situation
6 where, you know, I have the oldest vehicle in the
7 family. I drive a 1984 Chevrolet truck. It's my
8 primary vehicle. I do all the work on it to keep
9 the thing running, because, literally, I can't
10 afford to buy a new one. My wife drives a 1993
11 Lumina. I do the maintenance on it so we can keep
12 this thing running. And I have two teenagers that
13 go to school, and both of them -- they both share a
14 1993 Lumina that is a high mileage vehicle. I
15 can't afford to replace these.
16 You know, when you've got a couple
17 of teenagers planning to go to college and just the
18 normal expense of a normal family -- I'm not poor.
19 I'm not claiming the victim. I'm just saying, you
20 know, over the last ten years, because I've lost my
21 standard of living.
22 Back in '91 I could look forward to
23 buying a new truck; I could have afforded to put
24 some money away for my kids and been able to do
0390
1 some of these things. I can't. I can't do that
2 anymore, yet all of the downsides of this job still
3 exist. It had a detrimental effect.
4 One thing -- I wasn't planning on
5 telling you this, but it just really popped into my
6 head. I have a terrific relationship with my wife,
7 and we rarely ever fight. But when we do fight,
8 it's always about one thing; we never have enough
9 money.
10 You shouldn't have to do that. As
11 a skilled craftsman, someone whose abilities and
12 skills are valued or were valued by this industry,
13 I shouldn't have to fight with my wife. It's not
14 because we're out spending on wild crazy things or
15 going on vacations. I haven't been on vacation in
16 five years. You heard what kind of vehicles we
17 drive. We're not extravagant people. We do have
18 expectations that this industry used to fulfill
19 and, they don't do it anymore.
20 Q. What effect have these concessions had on
21 the industry?
22 A. I would say the biggest effect they've had,
23 and I think that's been repeated several times here
24 today, is that there was a time people were running
0391
1 to airlines knocking down the door trying to get
2 in. I see what's happened to people today, they're
3 running for the door trying to get out.

 

[Raptorman49]

The only way the TWU will survive a year from now is for mechanics like yourself to be duped into believing this IBT drive is for real. Look at the TWU's and IBT's strong relationship for many years, their equal hatred for AMFA, and tell me they are not colluding to prevent an election. By aiding the IBT in any way makes the efforts of many of your fellow co-workers efforts for the last 15 years to oust the TWU much harder due to even more division. All you've gained from your personal squabbles with AMFA supporters is the admiration of the TWU/IBT minions.

The drive is real, I won't believe that the Teamsters will spend a lot of their time & over $100,000 dollars helping the TWU they have got better use for their money & time & they know the TWU is perfectly capable of defending themselves as they did in 2003, don't believe every little conspiracy you hear, If you have bothered to go to the Teamster card drive office you would see that the drive is very real, i'm not so sure the AMFA card drive is real though, I heard it was an attempt by aliens to infiltrate AA so they can get a foot hold in our Aviation Industry, just a conspiracy I heard. B)

 

[TWU informer]

There you have it, most of us don't have time to research Union business we pay the Union to handle Union business, but I knew there had to be some Teamster guys somewhere that also researched Union business, good to see the other side of the story, welcome to the forum Anomaly, your doing a great job of showing the other side.

I thought you were not interested in Structure?
You are so damn two faced and full of double speak it is rediculous.

No Matter

The Bottom Line is the Teamsters are an Industrial Union and the Mechanic and Related work group will be a minority in the Airline Division and more so in the National Organization.

Being a Minority in a Majority Rule Organizaion will lead to nothing but more of the same that every Mechanic that has been a TWU member, and IAM member, or an IBT member has compained about for years.

We can argue for the next 100 years and this fact will never change.
Anamoloy can post the entire IBT Constitution and the fact will still not change one damn bit.
This is why the Craft Union and Industrial Union debate has gone on for over 100 years and is still alive today.

And it will never go away.

Being willing to fund the pay and benefits of the unskilled with your skill as the bargaining chip is a valid form of unionization. It is also a form of Government in other Countries, it is called Socialism and every year that passes this country moves closer to the haves taking care of and providing for the have nots.

How much are willing to give up so the unskilled can live in your neighborhood, drive the same cars, and eat the same as you do? You #### about the TWU and this contract. but it is exactly that, saving the unskilled jobs on your pay and benefits. So why complain about it on one hand, and then advocate it with the other hand? Are you that thick skulled and cannot see it is the same thing?

 

[odie01]

The drive is real, I won't believe that the Teamsters will spend a lot of their time & over $100,000 dollars helping the TWU they have got better use for their money & time & they know the TWU is perfectly capable of defending themselves as they did in 2003, don't believe every little conspiracy you hear, If you have bothered to go to the Teamster card drive office you would see that the drive is very real, i'm not so sure the AMFA card drive is real though, I heard it was an attempt by aliens to infiltrate AA so they can get a foot hold in our Aviation Industry, just a conspiracy I heard. B)

The IBT drive might be real in Tulsa, but not a threat at DFW and AFW. Most of us know that the IBT and twu are working together to try and stop the momentum from the AMFA drive. Its not rocket surgery.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

The drive is real, I won't believe that the Teamsters will spend a lot of their time & over $100,000 dollars helping the TWU they have got better use for their money & time & they know the TWU is perfectly capable of defending themselves as they did in 2003, don't believe every little conspiracy you hear, If you have bothered to go to the Teamster card drive office you would see that the drive is very real, i'm not so sure the AMFA card drive is real though, I heard it was an attempt by aliens to infiltrate AA so they can get a foot hold in our Aviation Industry, just a conspiracy I heard. B)

Dan,

When you called me and we spoke about the teamsters raiding the AMTs at AA I pointed out that in previous AMFA drives the twu cried to High heaven "RAIDERS"! But now that the teamsters are here where is the twu scream "RAIDERS"?

I pointed out to you that the twu was in SFO helping the teamsters organize United AMTs after AMFA was elected to represent them. Now why would the twu, an industrial union, help the teamsters, an industrial union, fight against a craft union? Hum.

I also pointed out to you, after you said that the teamsters would not spend all this money, ( which you are putting at $100,000..00, to organize at AA), that what ever the teamsters spend in attempting to organize AMTs at AA is minuscule against what the twu would lose in dues money each month from us. Do the math. The teamsters will not file for an election because they will not get enough cards to file and even if they did they are never going to say how many cards they have received. They are here only to pay back the twu for their assistance in RAIDING United Airlines.

 

[TWU informer]

Dan,

When you called me and we spoke about the teamsters raiding the AMTs at AA I pointed out that in previous AMFA drives the twu cried to High heaven "RAIDERS"! But now that the teamsters are here where is the twu scream "RAIDERS"?

I pointed out to you that the twu was in SFO helping the teamsters organize United AMTs after AMFA was elected to represent them. Now why would the twu, an industrial union, help the teamsters, an industrial union, fight against a craft union? Hum.

I also pointed out to you, after you said that the teamsters would not spend all this money, ( which you are putting at $100,000..00, to organize at AA), that what ever the teamsters spend in attempting to organize AMTs at AA is minuscule against what the twu would lose in dues money each month from us. Do the math. The teamsters will not file for an election because they will not get enough cards to file and even if they did they are never going to say how many cards they have received. They are here only to pay back the twu for their assistance in RAIDING United Airlines.

Good luck Ken.
This man is as thick skulled as they come!

 

[Raptorman49]

I thought you were not interested in Structure?
You are so damn two faced and full of double speak it is rediculous.

No Matter

The Bottom Line is the Teamsters are an Industrial Union and the Mechanic and Related work group will be a minority in the Airline Division and more so in the National Organization.

Being a Minority in a Majority Rule Organizaion will lead to nothing but more of the same that every Mechanic that has been a TWU member, and IAM member, or an IBT member has compained about for years.

We can argue for the next 100 years and this fact will never change.
Anamoloy can post the entire IBT Constitution and the fact will still not change one damn bit.
This is why the Craft Union and Industrial Union debate has gone on for over 100 years and is still alive today.

And it will never go away.

Being willing to fund the pay and benefits of the unskilled with your skill as the bargaining chip is a valid form of unionization. It is also a form of Government in other Countries, it is called Socialism and every year that passes this country moves closer to the haves taking care of and providing for the have nots.

How much are willing to give up so the unskilled can live in your neighborhood, drive the same cars, and eat the same as you do? You #### about the TWU and this contract. but it is exactly that, saving the unskilled jobs on your pay and benefits. So why complain about it on one hand, and then advocate it with the other hand? Are you that thick skulled and cannot see it is the same thing?

That's what I said, I haven't seen anything I have posted that refutes that,
the post you quoted did not say I was, you didn't read it slow enough.

 

[AC Tynker]

Not fair AC. If Informer is not leading then what is he doing? The rest of us complain about how we are screwed in a union that looks out for everyone but mechanics but Informer has spent a lot of time and a lot of his own money to try to bring about change and make it better for us all. He doesn't expect everyone to agree with everything he believes, but is willing to debate the points. He has been insulted and threatened on this board for giving his opinions. He is also readily available to anyone at any time to meet face to face. How many of us are that dedicated to any cause? In my opinion he is trying hard to be a leader and believes his way is better than any other option at this time. I ask everyone to put differences aside and think about what we are up against in this struggle. The truth is that we have not had any leadership here in Tulsa and Informer is willing to be the face of the cause. I have disagreed with him in the past but we have put those differences aside for the good of us all. I think this is a sign of a good leader. I respect this man for his courage and his integrity. He will not compromise his beliefs, unlike those who have sold their souls to the international.

I truely and I do sincerly mean truely apprieciate where you are coming from on everything you typed. My point I am and have been trying to get across is the fact of what I read page after page before I broke down and rejoined this board in the thread for the first TA mostly. Nothing but Negative Unprofessional Unwarranted constant Banter toward others that didn't share his exact view and through the years of the AMFA drives with few exceptions that is what my experience with the people that push it. I even went to the AMFA website to try and figure out if I was missing something and ran across a presentation they have that guides one through interacting in a debate or whatever and it tells you to do the oppisite of what I have seen happen here. I agree that he has probably endured abuse of all kinds but if you look at how some of the members here that support the TWU recieve the same abuse if not more from Informers supporters and most keep it together and stay professional even though they are being tag teamed post after post. The best part of that is they are just normal everyday non Union leader AMTs that I know of or if they are not then they really do drive my point that the Quality of your leader reflects 360 deg., in person, online or whatever example one can think of. I was an NCO in an Infantry unit did the job of squad leader then moved up to platoon sgt. and if I ever displayed any of the qualities I have witnessed here I do believe my 1st Sgt would have had me nailed to the wall in his office. I know this isn't the military But! a leader is a leader that is a leader. I haven't seen the same actions out of our current Leaders in TULE nor do I think we ever will. A perfect example in closing in my opinion is Bob Owens or his VP (can't remember how to spell his name so I won't butcher it) although thier beliefs and opinions are 180 out from mine they display leader qualities and don't give in no matter how much incoming they recieve. I have seen answers or comments from them that may hint sarcasm where they don't lay down and take it but they stay Proffesional ! no matter what.

Like I said OldGuy@AA I do see where you are coming from but the most devout unfaultering strongwilled person in the world can still be a very bad choice to throw out there to be what people have to look to.

 

[Buck]

Raptorman, how do you know that the Teamsters is spending over $100,000 and are you sure that these dollars spent are not yours and mine dues?