I'll just leave this here....

[700UW]

Dawg, dont forgot about the 717s, samething, everything outsourced.

 

[topDawg]

Dawg, dont forgot about the 717s, samething, everything outsourced.

717 was worse. At least some of the 90s did get painted in-house and in-house indocs. The 717s have done everything from cross-over to indoc out of house. First time Delta has done indocs with a vendor AFAIK. 

 

[700UW]

You know what he is going to say in regards to the 717?

 

[WorldTraveler]

the 717 mods were done by a vendor specifically as part of the contract from WN. Do you honestly think WN would agree to a contract that would have paid DL people to take aircraft which WN didn't want but DL did? Do you even think this through?

DL spent $2.3 billion maintaining its fleet in 2013 and 2014, including doing aircraft modifications on which DL has spent $500 million per year.

The numbers come right from DL's financial statements.

DL's aircraft modifications have taken 20% of DL's entire maintenance budget and you are right that most of that has been outsourced.

If you back out that outsourced mod work - almost half of DL's entire outsourced budget - DL is doing a higher percentage of work inhouse than even PMAA if you adjust for what is being spent on mods - of which DL is doing the most of any US airline.

The math is there for anyone that wants to do it.

DL is simply not doing anywhere close to the amount of outsourcing that you so they are and half of the outsourcing is being done on aircraft modifications, including interiors, that other carriers are simply not doing but instead spending on new aircraft.

read the financial statements.

 

[topDawg]

You know what he is going to say in regards to the 717?

same thing he always says, be happy with whatever Delta does. (in a lot more words) 

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, critically examine the evidence instead of belching emotions that are actually contradictory to the scenario that some people here want to present.

when the facts clearly show that the amount of outsourcing is less than you make it out to be, that is not emotions or blindly following DL.

It is facts that you either have to accept or ignore just so you can cling to your emotional rants.

 

[700UW]

Yep he said exactly what I thought he would that someone else paid for it, lol!

 

[topDawg]

no, critically examine the evidence instead of belching emotions that are actually contradictory to the scenario that some people here want to present.

when the facts clearly show that the amount of outsourcing is less than you make it out to be, that is not emotions or blindly following DL.

It is facts that you either have to accept or ignore just so you can cling to your emotional rants.

41.8% for 2013. Am I wrong? 
 
You still haven't given a good reason for the increase in outsourcing. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

do you know to calculate the percentage that $500 million in mods and cabin refurbs represents of DL's $2.3 billion budget? it is a whoel lot more than 3%.

you are clearly incredibly obtuse or you don't want to see the facts.

 

[topDawg]

do you know to calculate the percentage that $500 million in mods and cabin refurbs represents of DL's $2.3 billion budget? it is a whoel lot more than 3%.

you are clearly incredibly obtuse or you don't want to see the facts.

Ahhh but you aren't looking at the math right. You have to remember these mods are rolled into a check to "reduce" the costs. In other words, they are done during a overhaul when the cabin must come out anyways.  
 

the 717 mods were done by a vendor specifically as part of the contract from WN. Do you honestly think WN would agree to a contract that would have paid DL people to take aircraft which WN didn't want but DL did? Do you even think this through?

two things.
1) Delta could have made it part of the contract to have DTO do the work.
2) Yes, again.....in our world it isn't the constant pissing contest you make it out to be. Delta sends AA work now and guess what? AA is going to send its TXWBs to Delta.

DL spent $2.3 billion maintaining its fleet in 2013 and 2014, including doing aircraft modifications on which DL has spent $500 million per year.

The numbers come right from DL's financial statements.

DL's aircraft modifications have taken 20% of DL's entire maintenance budget and you are right that most of that has been outsourced.

If you back out that outsourced mod work - almost half of DL's entire outsourced budget - DL is doing a higher percentage of work inhouse than even PMAA if you adjust for what is being spent on mods - of which DL is doing the most of any US airline.

again the are mostly rolling that into check work that is already being done. That is why the outsourcing % hasn't gone through the roof. Simple fact is very little work has come back in-house post NW merger.

DL is simply not doing anywhere close to the amount of outsourcing that you so they are and half of the outsourcing is being done on aircraft modifications, including interiors, that other carriers are simply not doing but instead spending on new aircraft.

again, 41.8% is what I am saying Delta is sending out. Should i say that again? Are you disagreeing with the data from MIT you constantly use then?

 

[WorldTraveler]

if DL is doing $500M in mods out of a budget of $2.3B, then the percentage should go up by 20% not just 3%.

DL is clearly doing a whole lot of other maintenance in house or else the rate of outsourcing would have gone thru the roof as soon as it started doing all of those mods.

and DL couldn't have negotiated what WN wasn't willing to give.

Since WN paid $100M in order to get the planes off of its hands and into DL's, I am pretty sure that DL was going to let WN determine where to do the work. since they outsource nearly twice the rate than DL does, it is more likely than not that they will look outside of DL.

 

[topDawg]

if DL is doing $500M in mods out of a budget of $2.3B, then the percentage should go up by 20% not just 3%.

again, yes just doing the math that way you are right.
but that isn't how its really done. The cost of the mods are rolled into the cost of the checks also being done. Basically its being reported twice.
 

DL is clearly doing a whole lot of other maintenance in house or else the rate of outsourcing would have gone thru the roof as soon as it started doing all of those mods.

sorry WT, DL hasn't just brought in 17% of its MX and no one has noticed it. That would mean a lot of big ticket work that simply hasn't shown up. In the past few years the only big thing to come in house was the 42 CF6-80C2B8Fs. That isn't worth 17% of a difference. It is just accounting that is showing the difference. Strike that. The overhauls i don't think, started till 2014 on these engines.
 

and DL couldn't have negotiated what WN wasn't willing to give.

so you know what WN was or wasn't willing to do? proof?
 

Since WN paid $100M in order to get the planes off of its hands and into DL's, I am pretty sure that DL was going to let WN determine where to do the work. since they outsource nearly twice the rate than DL does, it is more likely than not that they will look outside of DL.

Okay, slow down because that isn't exactly how this worked.
WN didn't just pick a vendor and say deal with it. DL/WN picked a vendor (DTO didn't even bid to do the work FWIW they "didn't want it"). Matter of fact the vendor down in VQQ doing the work also does a lot of work on other DL airplanes.
And the reason why WN didn't just pick a vendor is Delta still has to have QA staff in place. In the eyes of the FAA DL is doing the mods, WN is just paying DL for it. If that makes sense.

its never that cut and dry WT. Both parties work together. Delta didn't bid on the work because, again, they don't want airplanes in a DL (USA) hangar that long.

 

[WorldTraveler]

if the cost is being accounted for twice, then DL's percentage would move by 10%. it hasn't. it has moved by 3%.

DL has done an enormous amount of mod work to its new and acquired fleet. Other than the 717s where the cost was paid for by WN before the aircraft came into service, every other mod job is recorded as a DL maintenance expense.

DL's outsourcing percentage would be much higher if all of the mod work it did dropped all the way to the outsourcing bottom line. The reason why it has not and why DL's outsourcing percentage has only gone up by 3% since the merger after jumping 14% when NW's outsourcing percentage is included is because DL is not doing near as much outsourcing as you think they are.

the math is there.

when you consider that other carriers are not modding their own fleets and are also not insourcing MRO work, then DL's maintenance outsourcing looks very good in comparison.

and btw, DL doesn't make that argument so I can't just read their statements and repeat it here. It comes by analyzing DL's financial statements. For someone that says they are a finance graduate you should be able to not only see it but find other data that shows how much more DL does with its own maintenance staff

 

[topDawg]

if the cost is being accounted for twice, then DL's percentage would move by 10%. it hasn't. it has moved by 3%.

DL has done an enormous amount of mod work to its new and acquired fleet. Other than the 717s where the cost was paid for by WN before the aircraft came into service, every other mod job is recorded as a DL maintenance expense.

DL's outsourcing percentage would be much higher if all of the mod work it did dropped all the way to the outsourcing bottom line. The reason why it has not and why DL's outsourcing percentage has only gone up by 3% since the merger after jumping 14% when NW's outsourcing percentage is included is because DL is not doing near as much outsourcing as you think they are.

the math is there.

when you consider that other carriers are not modding their own fleets and are also not insourcing MRO work, then DL's maintenance outsourcing looks very good in comparison.

and btw, DL doesn't make that argument so I can't just read their statements and repeat it here. It comes by analyzing DL's financial statements. For someone that says they are a finance graduate you should be able to not only see it but find other data that shows how much more DL does with its own maintenance staff

Where exactly? I mean if you want to do this, then we can do this. Where are your 2013 numbers coming from? 
 
Also again, if Delta magically in sourced 10-15-20% of its budget like you are suggesting they have done (ie almost the same amount of work they were sending out pre-merger) then i wouldn't have missed it. Hell it would probably be all over DeltaNet.
 
You are basically saying they only thing they do not do to the NW fleet, in-house, is HMVs. Hell to cover the mods they would probably have to do overhauls on some of the fleet in-house.
 
All the biggest ticket items on the NW fleet are sent out except the PW2000 engines and the 32S c-checks. (at least when we are talking 2013/2014). It is simply not possible.
 
What is more possible and much more likely is you are looking at A) the wrong numbers completely B) the way Delta does accounting is throwing you off. Generally when it comes to this kind of stuff its not 2+2=4. 
 
Having said that, again, give me where your getting your numbers and I will dig into the Form 41 and 10K numbers. Again, we are talking about 2013.(I am not sure if 2014 numbers are out yet) 

 

[WorldTraveler]

Top of the morning to you, dawg.

Or you can conclude that the value of the work DL for maintaining DL's fleet and in the work it sounds out is incorrect according to DOT data which you can find on DL's SEC filings and at the Airline Data Project among other places.

no, 2014 data has not been released.

again, DL has invested in mods on its existing fleet which is virtually indistinguishable in terms of passenger amenities compared to other carriers who are paying the OEMs to put in those new cabins on new aircraft.

DL chooses to invest in older aircraft. When you back out the value of what DL is spending in mods compared to what other carriers are doing, DL's level of outsourcing is lower and other carriers do not insource anywhere close to the degree DL Tech Ops does.