IAM Withdraws from Labor Coalition

[bpapaDC9]

[blockquote]
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On 10/11/2002 12:53:30 PM wts54 wrote:

You really expect me to pay for
people who are not working now(furloughed pilots)


I'm a furloughed United pilot.(since 03/01/02) How is it again that you are paying for me, especially since I haven't received a check since April 1st?

However if you would like to make a contribution to my personal account I'll be glad to give you my address

 

[UAL777flyer]

Hopefully it'll work out for all of us. Time will shortly tell.

 

[UAL777flyer]

wts,

Do you think you're the only one operating short-staffed? In my department, we're consistently forced to do more with less people and take one for the team. We don't get paid a dime of overtime like union employees, yet a 10-hour work-day is the norm. Now granted, that doesn't exist with all management employees, but in many departments, like mine, it does. So before you go painting with a broad brush by making generalized statements of having to subsidize too many management folks, you need to first realize that there are many, many management employees who are working under difficult circumstances, just like you and many others in the company. Right after 9/11, my department worked on one particular day from 5am until 2am the next day (Saturday), came back at 9am and worked until midnight. Guess what we got for all those hours? Nada. So please don't think that life is so wonderful for management employees. It isn't the country club atmosphere that many think it is. Sure there is excess in certain places, just like there is excess in maintenance and other departments. And that excess needs to be eliminated. I completely agree with that 110%.

 

[wts54]

On the first ERP proposal management and the pilots were offered deals that at the end of the ERP both groups would have been ahead of the game
as far as pay is concerned.The proposal for the IAM represented employees
(the serfs) would have not been as fortunate.Seems to me that there is something of a 2 class system here at good ole UAL.Im happy to work for Southwest wages and workrules that everybody keeps comparing us to.Can anybody else say the same? There are people laid off,furlough whatever you
want to call it who are at home making 70% to 80% of their paycheck.What
happens to other groups at UAL. A swift kick out the door.

 

[wts54]

So there are no pilots at home making 70% or so of their paycheck is that
what you are saying?? Absolutely none? I wasnt naming you specifically
so youre situation may not apply to everyone.

 

[ualdriver]

1) Just for the record, pilots don't get paid overtime either. It's always straight pay.

2) In my opinion, if the IAM doesn't receive any retro pay, then every dime of that 500M should count toward the total amount they will end up giving up.

3) If you think that there isn't featherbedding in the IAM contract, you're nuts. There's probably examples of featherbedding in every union contract on the property.

4) There are a few pilots flying supplemental lines as they are called where essentially you get most of your monthly salary for not flying. Unfortunately it is unavoidable since the company obviously cannot furlough out of seniority.

 

[bpapaDC9]

[blockquote]
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On 10/11/2002 255 PM wts54 wrote:

There are people laid off,furlough whatever you
want to call it who are at home making 70% to 80% of their paycheck.What
happens to other groups at UAL. A swift kick out the door.

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[/blockquote]

Believe me there are no fuloughed pilots at United getting a paycheck. All I got was a separation letter and a walk to the door by a secretary.

Perhaps, you are thinking of the pilots whose airplanes were parked, (B727 and 737-200), who are/were waiting to be retrained or could it be the suplus lines you are talking about. Mancityfan gave a nice discertation about this topic a month ago.

Regardless, any way you look at it there are no free rides at UAL. I wish all who are still working the best and I hope you make the best choice for yourself when it comes time to vote.

 

[diogenes]

Hi UA folks,

I'm a U ramp rat and have never posted on your board. I have been through the deal y'all are talking about - you're posts here read like the U board a few months ago. If I may, a few points.

We face three problems - revenue, political climate, management intentions.

1. Revenue - War talk jumped fuel prices and passengers are cancelling by the thousands. Everybody is sweating for the economy to recover quickly, but it doesn't look good now.

2. Politics - We're getting what you'd expect from a Republican administation - a very pro-management stance. The ATSB loans are predicated on labor taking major hits - no hits, no loans. Witness the de-unionization of Justice Department employees, and the demand for the same at the new Homeland Security Agency. The White House signalled, well before the West Coast dock strikes, they would replace workers with the National Guard, if needed. That makes it hard for the union to negotiate, and all they're asking is as jobs become obsolete by technology, the jobs created by that technology be union. Now, management knows the Senate is up for grabs, and the House is no sure thing for either party. They are going to make hay, between now and the Nov. elections.

3. Intentions - Siegel has plowed the field for BK manuevering, and I can tell you first-hand, BK is a very ugly and lethal weapon. AVOID IT AT ALL COSTS!! We at U did not have any room to manuever, and got taken full advantage of. The worst for fleet and customer service is yet to come.

In closing, I know the top District 141/141M and grand lodge guys know full well the ramifications of BK, and will work to avoid it. I also know some of the IAM brass pisses you off - me, too. To get a good handle on the facts, get past them to the economic advisers and Bk attorneys - they are top-flight. Also, in BK, the judge will not alter any contracts - he will uphold or abrogate; those are his only two options. You don't want to play chicken here. Thankfully, you have better options than U did; take advantage of them. Does this deal suck, and is management screwing us/taking advantage of 9/11? Yes, but I don't see how to get out of it.

Best of luck to you all, and thank God we didn't merge - code share is all the fun I can handle.

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 10/11/2002 8:52:38 PM avek00 wrote:

It is my understandng that ALPA, in an effort to dodge meaningful concessions, is trying to force all the workgroups into to a universal concession framework which will allow it to come out relatively unscathed. The IAM's negotiators and advisors were sharp enough to realize this, and hence decided to establish a degree of separation from the coalition. Furthermore, the IAM has given a HUGE concession to United: an interest-free loan in the form of deferred back wages. For all of ALPA's and AFA's talk, neither group has given up one red cent; the IAM has already saved United hundreds of millions of $$$.


Another extremely uninformed post. Why does it not surprise me? Would it surprise you to know that ALPA has ALREADY agreed to give up cash? I give up approx $1500 each and every month that the company contractually owes me! That's equals 150,000 cents PER MONTH! And it's not a LOAN! IT'S A PAY CUT! They are copper colored instead of red though. There are also 244 guys who took a 100% pay reduction despite a contract that GUARENTEES OTHERWISE (there is NO FM clause for that section of our contract)! 100% not enough? Would ALPA taking roughly twice the percentage hit as the IAM and 4 times the percentage hit of the AFA NOT be meaningful concessions? Are those advisors of the IAM the same ones that said UAL was fine and didn't need concessions a few months ago? Since when did the IAM WAGE LOAN become interest free? Saved UAL HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS? Surely you're not talking about in interest. The entire balance owed is only a couple hundred million...oh, wait I almost forgot, you worked for Corzine, you must be figuring Soprano interest rates. You Sir are uninformed.

Additionally, the IAM could indeed agree to workrule relief that will have the same or greater effect than a simple W-2 wage decrease.

Is that some of that Corzine math? The IAM could clean windows, do pushups, and polish floors all day long, it WILL NOT FIX OUR SHORT TERM PROBLEMS! Workrule changes will help in the long run IF UAL GROWS, otherwise they are USELESS (unless the IAM wants another furlough in leu of paycuts...)

Don't get me wrong: I still see the IAM as a bit of a loose cannon. But to their credit, the IAM recognizes that the membership doesn't know squat, and therefore retains sharp financial and legal advisors. That's more than what can be said for some other UAL unions, where the members think that they know everything, and yet they will be the ones left holding the bag in the likely Chapter 11 filing.

Are those the same advisors that had to run U into BK before acknowleging a need? What union are you refering to? ALPA? We've had financial advisors since DAY 1! The differance is ours have recommended CONCESSIONS FROM THE BEGINNING! The differance is, yes, most folks in ALPA are highly educated, so we actually SEE A NEED!
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[avek00]

Based on various discussions that I have had with people far more knowledgeable than myself on this issue over the past few days, I have concluded that the IAM is at least partially justified in its recent actions and statements.

It is my understandng that ALPA, in an effort to dodge meaningful concessions, is trying to force all the workgroups into to a universal concession framework which will allow it to come out relatively unscathed. The IAM's negotiators and advisors were sharp enough to realize this, and hence decided to establish a degree of separation from the coalition.

Furthermore, the IAM has given a HUGE concession to United: an interest-free loan in the form of deferred back wages. For all of ALPA's and AFA's talk, neither group has given up one red cent; the IAM has already saved United hundreds of millions of $$$. Additionally, the IAM could indeed agree to workrule relief that will have the same or greater effect than a simple W-2 wage decrease.

Don't get me wrong: I still see the IAM as a bit of a loose cannon. But to their credit, the IAM recognizes that the membership doesn't know squat, and therefore retains sharp financial and legal advisors. That's more than what can be said for some other UAL unions, where the members think that they know everything, and yet they will be the ones left holding the bag in the likely Chapter 11 filing.

 

[avek00]

ALPA recommended concessions from the beginning because the union knew that it would be screwed if the contract went before a judge. ALPA will have a VERY difficult time proving that its highly expensive contract should be kept around the neck of a bankrupt company.

The AFA and IAM, on the other hand, could easily provide sufficient workrule relief on their contracts to torpedo any threat of abrogation.

 

[avek00]

Put another way, the IAM has already given hundreds of millions in back-pay relief, and the AFA isn't exactly breaking the bank with an overgenerous contract. ALPA can make neither of those claims, and should therefore be rightfully concerned that it would be in the crosshairs of any BK proceeding, explaining to the judge why it should be allowed to continue squeezing every egg out of a bankrupt golden goose...

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 10/11/2002 10:06:17 PM avek00 wrote:

ALPA recommended concessions from the beginning because the union knew that it would be screwed if the contract went before a judge. ALPA will have a VERY difficult time proving that its highly expensive contract should be kept around the neck of a bankrupt company.

You forgot to put In my uninformed opinion in front of the post. ALPA recommended concessions from the beginning because we knew WE'D ALL get screwed if ANY contract went to a judge. Not to mention the loss of EVERYTHING we've earned over the last 7 years.

The AFA and IAM, on the other hand, could easily provide sufficient workrule relief on their contracts to torpedo any threat of abrogation.

Just like they did at U? Yeah right. Do you think ANY judge would say Oh the IAM at UAL is the highest paid in the industry, but they agreed to a few minor workrule changes so that contracts A-OK? Unbelievable!!
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[Taipan]

Ok look I feel that ALPA will due there fair share and more, management and non union on the other hand have been skating way way to long, its time to pay the piper

 

[gatemech]

busdrvr,

You stated
The entire balance owed is only a couple hundred million.

I'm not sure if the balance is for the 141 & 141M combined but it is closer to 450 + million. Now that is not enough to fix UAL but it is a substantial amount of money. I for one gave up all hope of ever seeing a dime of my retro.