IAM Withdraws from Labor Coalition

[Busdrvr]

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On 10/10/2002 941 PM Tim Thorpe wrote:

Blame us all you want but until you earn an A+P license all you get to do is whine about us on this message board.
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Doesn't matter if you've got a PhD, destroying the company because you have the mistaken belief that Mr. Goodwrench makes $35 an hour is just flat stupid. Does it take an A&P to park jets? You've got the oportunity to make your now nearly worthless stock valuable, and live to fight another day. Yes you can move on. Be my guest. Just don't intentionally tear down a good airline out of some Carbon Monoxide induced euphoric state of machismo. What ever contract the company offers now will be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the one you'll get in court (the roughly half of you who will still have a job).

 

[Tim Thorpe]

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On 10/10/2002 222 PM Busdrvr wrote:

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On 10/10/2002 2:24:17 PM DCT JVL wrote:


"This is a shame since they stand to lose so much from a chapter 11. Not only will they lose their seat on their board, but all of their ESOP shares and their retro pay. Wow, what a deal!"

Not to mention the outsourcing of heavy MX and Dispatch and Receipt. Although UAL is currently carrying a few extra pilots in anticipation of a rebound in the spring, we can't cut that many pilots. All of our jets are 2 pilot airplanes. The place that cuts in manpower would come is straight out of the IAM.

As for the first paragraph. You can't lose something you never had.
As for the second paragraph. The thought of moving on is not that scary. It happens to people every day. If I do move on I hope the mechanics remaing continue to earn top wages.
Do you all still think the unions have any real say as to whats about to happen? We are all being played for suckers. Again!!

 

[UnitedChicago]

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On 10/10/2002 941 PM Tim Thorpe wrote:

Blame us all you want but until you earn an A+P license all you get to do is whine about us on this message board.
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Yes because your A+P license has given you the right to thumb your nose at all of the pratical, relevant financial conditions that UA - as well as the entire industry - is in? Ha. Well sir I wish you luck in CH11 when your contract is voided.

I wonder who will be whining on this very message board when his pay, benefits, stock, and union board seat is voided. Maybe you? Probably not...you'll be blaming someone else if you even grasp what has happened.

Or did I miss something and is does an A+P license come with an anti reality clause which results in immunity to CH11? If that's true...then I guess you commute to work on a magic carpet.

 

[Taipan]

My personal feeling is that we will take paycuts in the 10-12% range,lose our raises for the next two years , and have a good amount of work rule changes, and a small amount of benefit changes.Now that I got that out I must say that you non union/management types on here are very naive if you think you are taking less of a real in the pocket paycut as us.The last plan for your ERP where they claim you were giving up 12% but 5% percent was a future raise with no one under 30k taking any paycuts is laughable ha ha[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif'] Also I would expect a major house cleaning at WHQ in manpower/doubling up job assingments etc , probably at least 20% less of a workforce maybe more.I would also advise you not to underestimate the retro payments ,because in the event that we do go CH 11 and some of you get your wish and we dont ever see the retro payments this might demoralize the front line workforce in ways you might not believe.Let me put it to you this way
1.Managment/non union saw bad times (7 yrs esop pay) then saw 2 1/2 years of good times
2.Alpa saw bad times (7 yrs esop pay) then saw 2 1/2 years of good times
3.IAM district 141 saw bad times (7 yrs esop pay) saw 5 MONTHS of good times [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/1.gif']

 

[UAL777flyer]

Sshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, what's that sound. I believe it's the IAM Eastern mentality taking hold.

If you vote down a voluntary concession agreement, what do you think is going to happen? The company will be forced into Ch.11 where they will definately petition a bankruptcy judge to throw out your contract. What do you think the judge will do when he realizes your contract is presently industry leading. You're putting much more at risk doing that than if you deal voluntarily. There is one thing you can be sure of, and that's if we file for bankruptcy without voluntary concession agreements, you'll see ugly like you've never seen before. Why can't we all just be smarter than that and take the easier route and save this airline, even if it means swallowing a little pride and putting your ego in check.

 

[Taipan]

I worked at Eastern back in 1984-1987 (IAH moonlight operation) , so I am fully aware of the situation.The problem I now have is this then=Single now=Family

 

[ualdriver]

Taipan-

And actually your statement about everyone having seen 2 1/2 years of good times while the IAM saw only a few months of bad times isn't the entire truth. Since the IAM is getting back pay (at 7% interest, none the less) to cover ALPA's and management's 2 1/2 years of good times, that is basically the equivalent, or the most equivalent it can be since it was the IAM that chose not to settle their contract for 2 years. But I guess we should be looking forward instead of backwards rather than rehash an old argument...

 

[wts54]

I have to say given the choice that UAL first gave the unions about
contract changes regarding the maint. bases and laying off as many people as they want,and the results of a BK I personally wonder if their is a dimes worth of difference.
How convenient it is for some groups to say we must move on and put the past behind us after they stuffed their pockets with as much UAL cash as
possible.How convenient it is for others to say we should take paycuts to
subsidize all the extra management people we carry on the books.The way I see it others are telling the IAM members we should just be good little boys and girls and take all this quietely.When the judge throws out my contract then I guess we will be free to strike UAL.I am not going to allow
a govt agency to tell me what I am going to work for.The government has no business giving money to airlines.Welfare is welfare and with it comes strings.
If it was just a ten percent paycut and I paid for my health insurance ok
I can live with that.I am suprised our union brothers are happy to let
UAL farm out all our heavy checks to third world countries and non-union
shops.Already the company is extending sevice checks to the limit and I suspect its going to get worse for other reasons such as pencil whipping.
The pilots spend more time airborne than anyone else so you would think they would never agree to this nonsense.

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 10/11/2002 11:17:08 AM ualdriver wrote:

Taipan-

Since the IAM is getting back pay (at 7% interest, none the less) to cover ALPA's and management's "2 1/2 years of good times," that is basically the equivalent, or the most equivalent it can be since it was the IAM that chose not to settle their contract for 2 years. But I guess we should be looking forward instead of backwards rather than rehash an old argument...
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Which is a MUCH higher interest rate than you can get anywhere else!

 

[wts54]

Speaking of featherbedding and the UAL PILOTS getting paid to stay home is that what you are referring to?Where I work running short staffed on any shift
is becoming normal and I can deal with that.A paycut and benefit changes
are coming and again I can live with that.You really expect me to pay for
people who are not working now(furloughed pilots)and the six operating managers on day shift alone not counting supervisors that oversee 50 people on dayshift, is that the featherbedding you are referring to?This place is so overstaffed with extra management and other white collar people it seems the union employees are the only ones being asked to deal with it.

 

[UAL777flyer]

Strike the company? You've got to be kidding. Well, if you're willing to throw away whatever investment you have left in your UA career, than go right ahead, should it come to that. Maybe if your union had been interested in negotiating your contract, instead of waiting for AMFA's NW deal to be done, you'd have enjoyed your raise right around the time the rest of the ESOP participants got theirs. You can argue all you want about paycuts. You can try to justify your position all that you want. But the fact of the matter is that if United Airlines is going to survive and prosper, MAJOR changes are necessary, including lowering labor costs through changes to union contracts, paycuts for employees and probably benefit changes. Does it stink? Absolutely. But it's time we come out of the stone ages and become more efficient. Doing that will unfortunately mean losing some jobs. But that is better than 84,000 people losing their jobs. Paycuts are going to happen, one way or another. But the tough talk about striking the company in bankruptcy should your contract be voided is laughable considering the only leverage you have is to shut the company down for good and usher in a liquidation, putting everyone out of work.

This is a high cost business that is ultra competitive. And when you consider the devastating economic environment we're in, it's a no brainer that airline management will search for cost-effective alternatives, including outsourcing more work. The way to guard against it is to become more efficient by eliminating the featherbedding that is rampant in the contracts when it comes to work rules and staffing requirements. But something has to give. The status quo is no longer tolerable.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

Has it been suggested that the IAM split away from the coalition just so they can point fingers later??

Perhaps the IAM has privately recognized (or been told) that BK filing is looming and thus are simply positioning themselves for the aftermath. Think about it.

Matter of fact, this is probably the smartest thing those IAM leaders have done yet. That is, being the first union group to start planning for the day after.

 

[mastermechanic]

SSSSShhhhhhhh....they let me out of the hole, but I have to be on best behaviour. I hope it works out for us, I really do. Unfortunately, it doesn't look to good. I'll just do my job to the best of my ability and hope for the best, if United still requires my services, they'll retain me. If not, I will have to do something else. Regards

 

[wts54]

I know changes are coming but Im not scared I can deal with it but many people
have more to lose than I. I can still voice my opinion no matter how wrong you think I am I not going to accept what to me is not acceptable regardless what happens to me or you UAL 777 FLYER.No matter who owns UAL'S
aircraft they will need a mechanic to work it.Some people will have a more
difficult time.Hope our guys like flying packages for Fed-ex in a single engine caravan.Have a great day

 

[kcabpilot]

For one thing: The IAM has already paid $500 million into whatever concession is going to be given. I know all you clowns will come back with that's just a high interest loan but it's not. (Hello McFly, anybody in there?) That money has not been paid and is not going to be paid. Anybody who thinks it will hasn't got a clue.

Now, if we can agree that the retro is not going to be paid then why can't we agree that the IAM members have already paid $500 million towards their contribution to the ERP?

And please, don't come back with that stupid water under the bridge reply.