I have had enough of the Teamsters!

[WeAAsles]

It doesn't require a shoot down publicly - just a simple statement that those options are not being pursued in these negotiations

I get you but even a passive statement is going to have others who have it asking questions. I think the only place they could tell you that would be at your own Local meetings.

 

[WeAAsles]

the ibt here was about 6, and yours at AA was what? 4-5?

No ones got anything to crow about on that front

Our negotiations last time was for a joint collective bargaining agreement between two unions who do have different philosophies and a company who wants things of their own. We had to basically figure out how to merge two different contracts in full and for 7 different groups.

And I’m absolutely not saying that these Airlines don’t stall things out nice and long anyway but the average I was seeing during that time frame out there was around 4 years.

Personally I’m satisfied for the most part with the Contract I have now and hope when we come up to bat that we don’t open for full Section 6 and go with limited issue bargaining instead.

 

[SWAMECH]

It looks like the drive originated in MCO & IAH - word reached us here on the west coast early last week.

The real shock was the ibt possibly going after our medical & pensions again - If they're are truly that foolish to try and force us into teamcare and their pension after the resounding "ABSOLUTELY NOT" from the membership last negotiations, then I could see ALOT of cards being signed rather quickly.

We'll see -

I see. It sounds as if some confirmation is in order. However, I do agree that silence on the teamster side speaks volumes. Because, as our experiences with the teamsters have proven is that quiet teamsters are usually fixin to screw the mechanics, either with behind closed door deals with the co. (which may be happening here with you all) or even agreements for ship out more and more work like they did here with ours. be aware until they can provide you with what you want IN WRITING no verbal BS as they will never follow thru as you guys have seen since they have represented you at UAL. Still not one promise has prevailed for you guys since they came in, not ONE...
Good luck on the drive and keep us posted...

 

[WeAAsles]

I see. It sounds as if some confirmation is in order. However, I do agree that silence on the teamster side speaks volumes. Because, as our experiences with the teamsters have proven is that quiet teamsters are usually fixin to screw the mechanics, either with behind closed door deals with the co. (which may be happening here with you all) or even agreements for ship out more and more work like they did here with ours. be aware until they can provide you with what you want IN WRITING no verbal BS as they will never follow thru as you guys have seen since they have represented you at UAL. Still not one promise has prevailed for you guys since they came in, not ONE...
Good luck on the drive and keep us posted...

You just write over and over and regurgitate just for the sake of it don’t you.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

I see. It sounds as if some confirmation is in order. However, I do agree that silence on the teamster side speaks volumes. Because, as our experiences with the teamsters have proven is that quiet teamsters are usually fixin to screw the mechanics, either with behind closed door deals with the co. (which may be happening here with you all) or even agreements for ship out more and more work like they did here with ours. be aware until they can provide you with what you want IN WRITING no verbal BS as they will never follow thru as you guys have seen since they have represented you at UAL. Still not one promise has prevailed for you guys since they came in, not ONE...
Good luck on the drive and keep us posted...

As the teamsters are notoriously closed mouthed, especially during negotiations, I think they will only address the issue if/when the drive pressures them too.

We'll see -

 

[WeAAsles]

As the teamsters are notoriously closed mouthed, especially during negotiations, I think they will only address the issue if/when the drive pressures them too.

We'll see -

Hey Hero let me ask you a question. If you look at AMFA’s LM2’s for 2023 and see Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars going to SSM&P for “UAL Issues” are you ok with that? If you were a current AMFA Member wouldn’t you want to ask why all your dues money is being spent trying to organize groups that already have Unions?

2022 AMFA LM2 Hundreds of thousands of Dollars for “AA Issues”

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Hey Hero let me ask you a question. If you look at AMFA’s LM2’s for 2023 and see Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars going to SSM&P for “UAL Issues” are you ok with that? If you were a current AMFA Member wouldn’t you want to ask why all your dues money is being spent trying to organize groups that already have Unions?

First - I do not share your opinion on SSMP - I do not view them as a scam - I do not believe they "own" AMFA

Second - to your question ..."would I ask" ... unless AMFA National had tried to keep the UAL campaign secret from the membership, No, I wouldn't.

I was involved with 5 grass roots organizing drives at UAL for AMFA - SSMP had NOTHING to do with our drive until we at UAL went to AMFA first. Thus I can say with confidence that your assertions about SSMP as far as UAL are concerned are 100% wrong - WE the mechanics at UAL approached AMFA all 5 times first.

Additionally - aren't you concerned that the twu is spending your dues on SWA MX when they already have a union? If you're gonna tell me its a grass roots drive at SWA, then please tell me why I only see 3 twu members here, and not a posting yet by a SWA MX member thats part of the drive?


So you don't waste your time (with me at least), the SSMP angle was grilled to death by the iam during our 5 drives to throw them out, your "arguments" are nothing new and only the year on the LM-2's have changed

Its also worth pointing out, that for all the money AMFA has chosen to spend, they've had a few victories ... how many aircraft mx groups have the twu successfully organized recently?

 

[WeAAsles]

First - I do not share your opinion on SSMP - I do not view them as a scam - I do not believe they "own" AMFA

Second - to your question ..."would I ask" ... unless AMFA National had tried to keep the UAL campaign secret from the membership, No, I wouldn't.

I was involved with 5 grass roots organizing drives at UAL for AMFA - SSMP had NOTHING to do with our drive until we at UAL went to AMFA first. Thus I can say with confidence that your assertions about SSMP as far as UAL are concerned are 100% wrong - WE the mechanics at UAL approached AMFA all 5 times first.

Additionally - aren't you concerned that the twu is spending your dues on SWA MX when they already have a union? If you're gonna tell me its a grass roots drive at SWA, then please tell me why I only see 3 twu members here, and not a posting yet by a SWA MX member thats part of the drive?


So you don't waste your time (with me at least), the SSMP angle was grilled to death by the iam during our 5 drives to throw them out, your "arguments" are nothing new and only the year on the LM-2's have changed

Its also worth pointing out, that for all the money AMFA has chosen to spend, they've had a few victories ... how many aircraft mx groups have the twu successfully organized recently?

The recent victories for the low hanging fruit are just fine since those small groups were all unrepresented. It’s even fine if you have “real” grass roots organizing drives since that’s your right. Hundreds of thousands of Dollars spent to a Law Firm every single year for these things though is NOT grass roots and is a scam IMO. I don’t care if the IAM were also smart enough to point it out for the scam it has always been. Good for them.

No this time I have zero problem with the TWU going after AMFA. They’ve never done it before and payback is both a ***** and more than deserved. And yes there are Mechanics at SWA who want to dump AMFA. As far as this site it only gets eyes now, no participation. And the TWU is NOT siphoning any of their members dues money to any outside Law Firm group for this initiative either. Others have reached out to them to strive for change. SSM$P is not an angle, it’s the scam.

Why for these never ending back and forth drives does the Law Firm need to be involved? What kind of “monthly” work are they doing that they need to bill current AMFA members for? I also say AMFA is a scam because they only come out of the weeds against AA and UAL every time negotiations come around. And they never go after Delta either? Why don’t they waste their members dues money on any drives there?

I’ll tell you why IMO. Because AMFA (SSM&P) is in bed with the Companies. They have an extraordinary weak contract at SWA and they don’t need to do anything at Delta since they have no Union. And they’re going to negotiate more weak contracts for those low hanging fruit groups they just gained. Mark my words. No different than that group at SWA that they can only negotiate never ending extensions for. Money only no improvements to scope. (SWA LOA# 1)

This is your 5th time pushing for AMFA? Obviously no matter who you get I guess you can’t figure out how to make it work from the inside if you’re always looking for change. Even though you can’t see it we needed change within the TWU and unlike you we made that change happen. Samuelsen and all the “people” in positions now was that change.

 

[WeAAsles]

And BTW before you come back and tell me that weak contract at SWA was inherited from the IBT that excuse doesn’t play anymore. I could give you that one if AMFA was only at the Airline for a few years now but they’ve been there for 20 years. 20 years and they’ve made no scope improvements. Money is easy and I’ll give them credit for that even if again it did take them 7 years to get there. But they’ve done a terrible job growing the AMT Class and Craft. That’s a fact.

And God Help any other groups that get stuck under AMFA. (Facilities Maintenance)

 

[SWAMECH]

As the teamsters are notoriously closed mouthed, especially during negotiations, I think they will only address the issue if/when the drive pressures them too.

We'll see -

Yup, typical teamsters. No communications, one of the many reasons we fired them here.

 

[SWAMECH]

For those of you upset and currently working for UAL, the AMFA card drive has started. It’s time to start printing, signing, collecting, and mailing these in. We’ve been going for 5 days as of this post and MCOMX has lead the way. Our station is making it happen, DEN, ORD, and IAD are also involved. IAH and EWR need to get on board along with SFO and all other line stations. TeamCare is being pushed through again and nothing has changed under the O’Brien slate.

Check www.amfaual.com for more info and join/follow our social media pages.

Hey Erick407a,
Reaching out to see how card drive is going? Also, a quick question on the timeline clock ticking down. Is this the countdown to the day expected to file? Countdown to where enough interest where AMFA gets involved?? What is the 68 days, hours and minutes counting down please???

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

The recent victories for the low hanging fruit are just fine since those small groups were all unrepresented. It’s even fine if you have “real” grass roots organizing drives since that’s your right. Hundreds of thousands of Dollars spent to a Law Firm every single year for these things though is NOT grass roots and is a scam IMO. I don’t care if the IAM were also smart enough to point it out for the scam it has always been. Good for them.

... and you can PROVE its not grass roots? ... EVERY SINGLE YEAR? ... well that last part at least should be fairly easy to prove, you're obviously well acquainted with the OLMS website, prove your point ... show where the money spent on the AA drive is happening EVERY single year. Then we'll talk.

No this time I have zero problem with the TWU going after AMFA. They’ve never done it before and payback is both a ***** and more than deserved. And yes there are Mechanics at SWA who want to dump AMFA. As far as this site it only gets eyes now, no participation. And the TWU is NOT siphoning any of their members dues money to any outside Law Firm group for this initiative either. Others have reached out to them to strive for change. SSM$P is not an angle, it’s the scam.

Thanks for finally admitting the drive is about revenge - as for your story about there actually being SWA mechanics involved, forgive me for being skeptical when all I see on the twu raid thread and other social media is twu produced propaganda posted by twu members, and not a single post, letter, flier, or critiques from ACTUAL SWA mechanics citing what their grievances are and why THEY want to seek representation with the twu.

Why for these never ending back and forth drives does the Law Firm need to be involved? What kind of “monthly” work are they doing that they need to bill current AMFA members for? I also say AMFA is a scam because they only come out of the weeds against AA and UAL every time negotiations come around. And they never go after Delta either? Why don’t they waste their members dues money on any drives there?

What type of work? well here at UAL during our drives we had 2 very big legal issues during organizing in the earlier attempts, one was centered around areas that organizing was being restricted ( that we won ), and an other, revolved interestingly enough on the ability to wear a button supporting the union of our choice ( won that too ) all the court filings and back and forth with company legal I'm sure ran the tab up. As for now, I'm sure making appearances at organizing drives, making videos for organizing, refuting other unions lawyers like the ibt when they falsely claimed they could force a contract open, yet can't. Queries on the continuation of pensions during takeovers and so on.

By the way your question on Delta points out an obvious flaw in your position ... if SSMP is a scam, and the drives are not grass roots ... why wouldn't they go after a juicy target like Delta?

Maybe because there is no grass roots drive at Delta.

I’ll tell you why IMO. Because AMFA (SSM&P) is in bed with the Companies. They have an extraordinary weak contract at SWA and they don’t need to do anything at Delta since they have no Union. And they’re going to negotiate more weak contracts for those low hanging fruit groups they just gained. Mark my words. No different than that group at SWA that they can only negotiate never ending extensions for. Money only no improvements to scope. (SWA LOA# 1)

Sorry, AMFA negotiations ( yes, even in BK ) at UAL & ALA would seem to prove you wrong

This is your 5th time pushing for AMFA? Obviously no matter who you get I guess you can’t figure out how to make it work from the inside if you’re always looking for change. Even though you can’t see it we needed change within the TWU and unlike you we made that change happen. Samuelsen and all the “people” in positions now was that change.

While it might be difficult for you to believe, I'm not pushing anything. I'm not involved with the current AMFA drive. I haven't even signed a card. My 5th (last) drive was the iam decertification drive. I found out about this drive probably around the same time you did.

That said - if the rumors about the ibt going after our medical & pensions again are true, I will become involved.

As for change - one must have the ability to make that change. If the twu allows you that ability, thats great. The iam wouldn't, and worse yet tried to fake it with 141M, the teamsters have closed the door on the possibility as their constitution specifically states all BA's will be appointed. That leaves very little else save for union change.


We'll see -

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

And BTW before you come back and tell me that weak contract at SWA was inherited from the IBT that excuse doesn’t play anymore. I could give you that one if AMFA was only at the Airline for a few years now but they’ve been there for 20 years. 20 years and they’ve made no scope improvements. Money is easy and I’ll give them credit for that even if again it did take them 7 years to get there. But they’ve done a terrible job growing the AMT Class and Craft. That’s a fact.

And God Help any other groups that get stuck under AMFA. (Facilities Maintenance)

Give it a rest -

We've been over this EXACT ground before - NO UNION - not AMFA, TWU/IAM, or the teamsters can FORCE an airline to expand its MX footprint. Clearly it can defend ( and should ) that which exists.

SWA mechanics & related headcount has increased since their certification in 2003 - and last I read they had recently secured additional work line(s) in Dallas I believe

 

[WeAAsles]

... and you can PROVE its not grass roots? ... EVERY SINGLE YEAR? ... well that last part at least should be fairly easy to prove, you're obviously well acquainted with the OLMS website, prove your point ... show where the money spent on the AA drive is happening EVERY single year. Then we'll talk.




Thanks for finally admitting the drive is about revenge - as for your story about there actually being SWA mechanics involved, forgive me for being skeptical when all I see on the twu raid thread and other social media is twu produced propaganda posted by twu members, and not a single post, letter, flier, or critiques from ACTUAL SWA mechanics citing what their grievances are and why THEY want to seek representation with the twu.




What type of work? well here at UAL during our drives we had 2 very big legal issues during organizing in the earlier attempts, one was centered around areas that organizing was being restricted ( that we won ), and an other, revolved interestingly enough on the ability to wear a button supporting the union of our choice ( won that too ) all the court filings and back and forth with company legal I'm sure ran the tab up. As for now, I'm sure making appearances at organizing drives, making videos for organizing, refuting other unions lawyers like the ibt when they falsely claimed they could force a contract open, yet can't. Queries on the continuation of pensions during takeovers and so on.

By the way your question on Delta points out an obvious flaw in your position ... if SSMP is a scam, and the drives are not grass roots ... why wouldn't they go after a juicy target like Delta?

Maybe because there is no grass roots drive at Delta.





Sorry, AMFA negotiations ( yes, even in BK ) at UAL & ALA would seem to prove you wrong




While it might be difficult for you to believe, I'm not pushing anything. I'm not involved with the current AMFA drive. I haven't even signed a card. My 5th (last) drive was the iam decertification drive. I found out about this drive probably around the same time you did.

That said - if the rumors about the ibt going after our medical & pensions again are true, I will become involved.

As for change - one must have the ability to make that change. If the twu allows you that ability, thats great. The iam wouldn't, and worse yet tried to fake it with 141M, the teamsters have closed the door on the possibility as their constitution specifically states all BA's will be appointed. That leaves very little else save for union change.


We'll see -

Can you break down each one of your responses into separate boxes and I’ll give you “my” responses and opinions for each one individually? Otherwise I’ll try to take each piece at a latter time when I’m back home. I’m at work now. 😊

 

[WeAAsles]

Give it a rest -

We've been over this EXACT ground before - NO UNION - not AMFA, TWU/IAM, or the teamsters can FORCE an airline to expand its MX footprint. Clearly it can defend ( and should ) that which exists.

SWA mechanics & related headcount has increased since their certification in 2003 - and last I read they had recently secured additional work line(s) in Dallas I believe

Exactly agreed the Union can’t “FORCE” the Company to expand its MX footprint but a good Union with some clout can push and argue for reasons that it should be.

I believe the only reason it’s expanded at SWA is because they added more planes? Otherwise the fact is that AMFA as an entity is just too small to have any influence with anyone anywhere and as we saw at NWA can be decimated if the Company wants to do it to them. Of course with the availability of AMT’s to take the work from them through the RLA process.

IAM, IBT and TWU have too many friends to have their heads chopped off like that and I’m not just talking Politicians but the other Unions (AFA, APFA, ALPA, APA, CWA) as well that can make things “difficult”

AMFA was starting to gain some support but they blew it when they again went after the AA Groups. IAM was the one saying to everybody not to trust AMFA and they were right.

BTW the IBT isn’t very popular with the IAM either obviously. Even if they do put their logos on some letters together.