I have had enough of the Teamsters!

[eolesen]

Oh so it’s ok because a ridiculous amount of money from only about 3000 to 3500 people is going to “1 one ☝️ Law Firm” instead of a bunch of elected (yes elected) Union Leaders? TWU BTW represents about 150,000 while the IBT represents around 1.3 Million. E I know you’re not a fan of Unions but even you can recognize a scam when you see one.

I agree, the TWU is a scam.

You may not see the value in having lawyers representing you for arbitration and contract negotiations, but it's been pretty clear to me over the last 30 plus years I've watched the TWU using layman to do their negotiating and arbitrating. Each and every time they get hoodwinked at the table and outsmarted by management.

I can guarantee you that management is coming to the table with people who are experts in contract language and labor law.

Just because you live to a contract doesn't make you an expert...

 

[WeAAsles]

I agree, the TWU is a scam.

You may not see the value in having lawyers representing you for arbitration and contract negotiations, but it's been pretty clear to me over the last 30 plus years I've watched the TWU using layman to do their negotiating and arbitrating. Each and every time they get hoodwinked at the table and outsmarted by management.

I can guarantee you that management is coming to the table with people who are experts in contract language and labor law.

Just because you live to a contract doesn't make you an expert...

I always thought you knew what you were talking about. It’s clear that you don’t. Both the TWU and IAM also use many Lawyers and Law Firms. They just don’t use one ☝️ only. I thought you knew that our Contract Negotiations are overseen by Lawyers that have been associated with the TWU for many years.

Here’s one that’s been involved with us at Local 568 and has advised on Contract Negotiations.

Mark Richard – Partner – Phillips, Richard & Rind, P.A.

phillipsrichard.com

 

[WeAAsles]

I agree, the TWU is a scam.

You may not see the value in having lawyers representing you for arbitration and contract negotiations, but it's been pretty clear to me over the last 30 plus years I've watched the TWU using layman to do their negotiating and arbitrating. Each and every time they get hoodwinked at the table and outsmarted by management.

I can guarantee you that management is coming to the table with people who are experts in contract language and labor law.

Just because you live to a contract doesn't make you an expert...

I wanted to come back to this cause I do respect you E and I don’t want you to think otherwise. I’m wondering where you seriously had the idea that the TWU in particular doesn’t use Lawyers. No they don’t do the Negotiations in full but they advise and look over everything. Many Locals even use Lawyers to present their Arbitration cases especially termination hearings.

Does having Lawyers though guarantee we’re going to get everything we want? Of course not. But now let’s talk about AMFA at SWA. Their Lawyers took SEVEN YEARS to negotiate their last contract and all they could accomplish after all that time were wage increases. So that Law Firm was billing them for 7 whole years to a get them something they probably could have gotten themselves in 2 years if they had just used a bunch of uneducated dummies instead. That’s why I say the entire AMFA group itself is a fraud. I say this using BASIC common sense. NYC Street Smarts.

BTW I have a fantastic CBA right now. There’s very little I don’t like about it. It’s absolutely Industry leading by far. The protection language alone is something other groups are dying to get. So tell me if you want to go and read it yourself how I got hoodwinked?

 

[eolesen]

I'm just going by what Bob Owens told us for years - laymen were better negotiators. It's your choice to keep them, but there's never been anything industry leading from the TWU. Any gains they've seen came on the coat tails of the other two in-house unions at AA...

Every time I drive past AFW I'm reminded of how powerful they weren't.

 

[WeAAsles]

I'm just going by what Bob Owens told us for years - laymen were better negotiators. It's your choice to keep them, but there's never been anything industry leading from the TWU. Any gains they've seen came on the coat tails of the other two in-house unions at AA...

Every time I drive past AFW I'm reminded of how powerful they weren't.

The other two Unions (at this moment) don’t have the same Profit Sharing formula or protection language that we have. As a matter of fact they don’t even have the same amount of Holidays with double time and a half. So if you want to cherry pick you can start with those two or if they ever get those things you can say they’re riding our coattails.

Besides I’m not even sure why you’ve chimed in since it doesn’t sound like you’re up to date or have even read any of our current contracts?

And thank you for telling me I can keep them cause I gladly am.

 

[WeAAsles]

BTW E maybe you missed the news but the old AA went Bankrupt and terminated the lease at AFW. Do you know what happens to pretty much all stakeholders in Bankruptcies?

American Air Terminates Maintenance Base Lease After Shift to Third-Party Vendors

American's initial lease was to run until August 2028 with lease extension options until 2089.

skift.com

 

[CorvetteMan]

I'm just going by what Bob Owens told us for years - laymen were better negotiators. It's your choice to keep them, but there's never been anything industry leading from the TWU. Any gains they've seen came on the coat tails of the other two in-house unions at AA...

Every time I drive past AFW I'm reminded of how powerful they weren't.

Guess you don’t realize AMFA represented airlines have the highest percentage of outsourcing of any airline.
Guess you haven’t driven past NW closed hangars at MSP, DUL and ATL.

Or AS at SEA.

https://investor.alaskaair.com/news-releases/news-release-details/alaska-airlines-closing-oakland-maintenance-base

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Yes, the same promises are still alive. TSH, you heard all this before too. Have you heard of this card drive @ UAL?

It looks like the drive originated in MCO & IAH - word reached us here on the west coast early last week.

The real shock was the ibt possibly going after our medical & pensions again - If they're are truly that foolish to try and force us into teamcare and their pension after the resounding "ABSOLUTELY NOT" from the membership last negotiations, then I could see ALOT of cards being signed rather quickly.

We'll see -

 

[WeAAsles]

It looks like the drive originated in MCO & IAH - word reached us here on the west coast early last week.

The real shock was the ibt possibly going after our medical & pensions again - If they're are truly that foolish to try and force us into teamcare and their pension after the resounding "ABSOLUTELY NOT" from the membership last negotiations, then I could see ALOT of cards being signed rather quickly.

We'll see -

You guys are a mess. You had the IAM since 1945 then you dumped them because of the catastrophe of 9/11 in 2003 for AMFA. Then you realized AMFA couldn’t give you what you want so you went with the IBT in 2008. Then some of your members started a card drive to get the IAM back in 2009 but that didn’t happen and ever since you’ve been having drives back and forth all over the place looking for basically anyone you can find.

When are you guys going to figure out that it doesn’t matter what Union you have since you’re going to elect the same floor reps anyway? Ridiculous.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

A few corrections - we dumped the IAM for a variety of reasons, the final one being they flat out lied to the mechanics with their fake District 141-M which was supposed to provide us separate representation which it clearly did not - that coupled with the poison pill provision given in their last negotiated deal sealed it.

As for AMFA - they took over in bankruptcy and never had a chance to negotiate a normal section 6 contract - it was those same "floor reps" you mentioned, from the former IAM that ran to the teamsters and promised the membership the world, which they failed to deliver hence why many are wishing to return to AMFA - nevermind the fact that of the 3 the ibt is the worst in elected representation - we cannot replace our BA's in the ibt. at least under AMFA we were able to recall officers that failed the membership

Yes, it may be rather messy, but this membership is very aware that if they are unsatisfied with their representation, they can change it

So here we are, with the ibt APPOINTED BA's and airline division, who may try to push 2 major changes to our agreement that the membership flat out rejected last negotiations - since we cannot vote out the offending officers and agents, we very well may vote out the union.

 

[WeAAsles]

A few corrections - we dumped the IAM for a variety of reasons, the final one being they flat out lied to the mechanics with their fake District 141-M which was supposed to provide us separate representation which it clearly did not - that coupled with the poison pill provision given in their last negotiated deal sealed it.

As for AMFA - they took over in bankruptcy and never had a chance to negotiate a normal section 6 contract - it was those same "floor reps" you mentioned, from the former IAM that ran to the teamsters and promised the membership the world, which they failed to deliver hence why many are wishing to return to AMFA - nevermind the fact that of the 3 the ibt is the worst in elected representation - we cannot replace our BA's in the ibt. at least under AMFA we were able to recall officers that failed the membership

Yes, it may be rather messy, but this membership is very aware that if they are unsatisfied with their representation, they can change it

So here we are, with the ibt APPOINTED BA's and airline division, who may try to push 2 major changes to our agreement that the membership flat out rejected last negotiations - since we cannot vote out the offending officers and agents, we very well may vote out the union.

Not to try to defend or support the IBT since they can be pretty shady themselves. The reason I think why you’re contract is so far behind the TWU/IAM Association at AA, the AMFA at SWA and even non union Delta is because you haven’t gotten up to bat yet since all the Industry improvements?

But yea I remember the IBT pimping their Pension and Teamcare to you like some Farmers Daughter. Guaranteed they’ll do it again. So if this newest push is a heads up to the IBT to not push it I can understand it.

I hope you’ve looked at the two major contracts out there besides yours and compared them side by side. It’s very obvious which one is better though.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

In comparison I'd still take the previous language that the ibt gutted from our CBA - yes AMFA language

We had lines of work and shops protected by name. In SFO alone we had 3 heavy C chk lines - A320 - B757 - B777. Now those chks are gone, and we do nothing higher than an A chk.

In December we will get an industry wage adjustment, so I'll thank AA & DL for that

 

[CorvetteMan]

A few corrections - we dumped the IAM for a variety of reasons, the final one being they flat out lied to the mechanics with their fake District 141-M which was supposed to provide us separate representation which it clearly did not - that coupled with the poison pill provision given in their last negotiated deal sealed it.

As for AMFA - they took over in bankruptcy and never had a chance to negotiate a normal section 6 contract - it was those same "floor reps" you mentioned, from the former IAM that ran to the teamsters and promised the membership the world, which they failed to deliver hence why many are wishing to return to AMFA - nevermind the fact that of the 3 the ibt is the worst in elected representation - we cannot replace our BA's in the ibt. at least under AMFA we were able to recall officers that failed the membership

Yes, it may be rather messy, but this membership is very aware that if they are unsatisfied with their representation, they can change it

So here we are, with the ibt APPOINTED BA's and airline division, who may try to push 2 major changes to our agreement that the membership flat out rejected last negotiations - since we cannot vote out the offending officers and agents, we very well may vote out the union.

I was a member of 141M we had different PDGC and AGCs than 141.

Stop with the misinformation

 

[WeAAsles]

In comparison I'd still take the previous language that the ibt gutted from our CBA - yes AMFA language

We had lines of work and shops protected by name. In SFO alone we had 3 heavy C chk lines - A320 - B757 - B777. Now those chks are gone, and we do nothing higher than an A chk.

In December we will get an industry wage adjustment, so I'll thank AA & DL for that

Depending on the language for that wage adjustment you need to also thank your own reps too to be fair. If AMFA never had the chance to negotiate a normal Section 6 how can you say any language you had was their doing? And were those your own floor reps (UAL Employees) who gained language or do you feel it had something to do with SSM&P? Yea the IBT is ultimately owned by the IBT International so they’ll also push things on you that you might not want but I also firmly believe the AMFA is owned by the Law Firm in Upstate NY. It’s not owned by the membership as they portray they are.

Also the loss of all that work came after 9/11 and with all the Concessions and Bankruptcies that came after. AMFA also took a major bat to the chin in those times as well. Except SWA since they didn’t have the same high costs as the majors. AMFA has been there for 20 years now and hasn’t really grown any work.

BTW do you know how many AMT’s and “Related” you have? Don’t be like the morons at AA who never want to include the and related in their drives so why those peanut heads keep being denied by the NMB.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

I was a member of 141M we had different PDGC and AGCs than 141.

Stop with the misinformation

I was a member of 141M as well - during the midterm wage adjustments the ramp and stores ( D141 )agreed to their approx 3% increase - the mechanics D141M held out for and got 6% - the IAM used the mechanic win as leverage for the ramp

As far as officers the PDGC and AGCs were appointed - the mechanics didn't get to elect them

So you stop with the misinformation