How Much Are You Worth?

[traderjake]

(by the way, silly, government ownership of businesses is not really the same thing as socialism--democratic control would be more correct--and that precludes that control being mediated through a dictatorship, sorry thanks for playing, come again.....)

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, 10th Edition

socialism 1: any of various economic and political theories avocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods


Cambridge Dictionary of the American English

socialism - noun - any economic or political system based on government ownership and control of important businesses and methods of production


Dictionary.com

socialism 1. Any of various theories or sytems or social organization in which the means of producting and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.


I must have missed all those democratic elections in China and the U.S.S.R. I guess Mao and Stalin were not dictators after all. I guess I was distracted by the stories of them killing 60 million of their own people.

The big lie is that socalism is a program to share to wealth. That's how it's sold to the masses. What it actually does is consoladate and control the wealth.


There is nothing wrong with people organizing to bargain collectivley. Just don't kid yourself, they are acting in their own self interest, not in the name of social justice or humanitarianism as you imply.

 

[airlineorphan]

Yeah, traderjake, I didn't notice any democratic elections under the state religions of Stalin or Mao either. What amuses me is that you continue to insist that my advocacy of social justice, solidarity and democracy are somehow equal to Stalin's and Mao's ruthless crushing of social justice, solidarity and democracy, a position I have not put forward. It also amuses me that a critique of free market fundamentalism is considered the same as advocating the gulag. Go back and read what I actually wrote instead of dropping your propaganda template on me.

Self-interest vs. social justice. Hmmm... another false dichotomy. I ain't talking about charity work to lift someone else up, but solidarity to fight for our own justice and an understanding that our hope for justice is bound up in the fight for justice for others. Nothing utopian about fighting back when some corporation is trying to put its boot on you.

As union members, any self-interested fight we engage in can only be successful if it recognizes the connections that struggle has with others. For us at US Airways, our success is very much bound up with the success of the f/a's at Southwest, for example. The more we throw others under the bus in order to get ahead, the more we undermine ourselves and erode our possibilities now and especially in the longterm.

Certainly the history of the labor movement is full of such mistakes. And it is also full of examples of people who learn from those mistakes to engage in stronger struggles instead of just giving up and putting their fate in the hands of the Bronners and Siegels of this world.

As for your red-baiting, you really don't know what the heck you are talking about and who you are dealing with. If you actually wanted to engage in serious debate, you would not be retreating to such smear tactics as associating unions, social justice, solidarity and advocacy of democracy with the murder of 60 million people (many of whom were murdered for thinking the way I do, by the way).

Are you now or have you ever been a card carrying member of the [fill in the blank]. Sorry if it upsets you that I have "wrongthink" about the magical properties of the free market. I just believe in humanity more than I do magic.

And I think US Airways employees have given way too much already to a management that has only proven an ability to squander what is given to them.

-Airlineorphan

P.S. Thanks for the dictionary definition. That certainly clears everything up on such a complex and longtime hotly debated concept. I was so relieved to find out that it was so simple after all. Glad to know that all of the subtleties of such a historically loaded concept can be distilled into such a neat and tidy form.

 

[mweiss]

Seems to me the problem at U hasn't been labor failing to honor contracts negotiated in good faith, but rather, management's lack of honor.

I won't disagree with you and orphan here, but ultimately if you're going to consider management to be your enemy, then you need to leave the company. Seriously. I mean, if you were in an airplane with pitch down 45deg and 10000ft agl, and you had a chance to bail safely, why wouldn't you? What's the point in rushing the cockpit and seeing if you can just push the control column a little further???

 

[High Iron]

Since supplying dictionary references are in vogue ( and since 'Airlineorphan's' postion was equated with socialism, red menaces and the like ), I figured a defination of a strawman argument is most appropriate:

Wikipedia.org: ( online encyclopedia )

"Present a misrepresentation of your opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that you have refuted your opponent's actual position."

Fast-times.com: ( political dictionary )

"strawman - a weak argument or opposing point of view that is set up by a speaker so that he can knock it down easily and appear to win an argument or debate. Sometimes a strawman may represent an exaggerated position that none of the speaker's opponents is in fact advocating-but the speaker hopes that his listeners do not know this."

Funny how policy input from a populistic source seems to be considered some sort of harbinger of secret marching orders from Lenin ( or Marx?...ya know..."Workers of the world...." and all ) yet the corporate/elite view seems to be presented as some self-eveident dogma...and we'll get it right this time...hopefully..................................

 

[A320 Driver]

I think the great frustration of most employee groups stems from the lack of change operationally at the company. A great point was made at the meeting with Dr. Bronner. U could have the finest CEO in the world and it wouldn't help one bit without strong leadership in our operations. We can do all the studies, get all the suggestions, or take all the polls in the world, but without the leadership to effect change, nothing ever will. All of our VPs seem to be on absolute level footing with regard to power or influence, but no true tie-breaker exists at U. Who decides what changes will be instituted? It appears no one. PHL has become a test case for the airline. If we can't fix PHL, we can't fix anything. What we lack is a leader to take the bull by the horns and start the processs of really changing our company...if it isn't too late already.
We can debate the merits and pitfalls of trade unionism till the cows come home, but the bottom line is, people want to be treated fairly. When they can't acheive that individually, then they will try to accomplish it in numbers. The statement was made that no company has a union that didn't do something to deserve it. That especially rings true in fields like transportation and aviation where employees really enjoy their work. Unfortunantly that enjoyment is exploited by managements in search of bigger profits...and bigger bonuses.
So where does that leave us? Pretty much in the same sewer we were in months ago. I felt there was some opportunity after the meeting last Friday...right up to the point where I read the comments made publicly by our CEO. Basically, it's business as usual at U boys and girls. More job cuts, pay cuts, benefit cuts, and longer hours for less pay. I don't mind giving when I see it has some potential, but I swear, I'm having real problems seeing the point this morning. Some say "let's take the cuts" others just say "no". Many can't afford more cuts i.e. our agents have been cut to the bone. How much more can they be expected to give? Sure, we in the pilot group have a little wiggle room left, but it won't be enough to fix this income shortfall. I personally think our biggest problem is a complete lack of definition of who we are and where we are going. Simply put, where is the plan? AFA, make sure you ask that question clearly because we at ALPA dropped the ball. CWA, join AFA and make your voices heard "where's the plan"? IAM...well I almost forgot, you guys ain't talking, are you. Well you can ask your buddies at AFA and CWA what the plan was. And ask them what their Plan B is also when GE pulls it's financing, our credit rating is lowered, and the auditors declare us persona non grata.

Good luck to us all,

A320 Driver :unsure:

 

[tim]

Good luck to us all,

A320 Driver :unsure:

Same to you sir!

Seems you're starting to see the reality some of have about 2 years ago.

 

[diogenes]

I won't disagree with you and orphan here, but ultimately if you're going to consider management to be your enemy, then you need to leave the company. Seriously. I mean, if you were in an airplane with pitch down 45deg and 10000ft agl, and you had a chance to bail safely, why wouldn't you? What's the point in rushing the cockpit and seeing if you can just push the control column a little further???

Michael,

If I followed that logic, due to my opinion of President Bush, I'd have to leave the country.

You'll forgive me if I opt otherwise.

I go to my job every day, on time. I do not abuse my sick leave. I do not drag my feet, or hinder the operation. I constructively solve the myriad of daily problems that come my way. I engage in honest conversation with my peers and superiors. This, despite management. Why? My father and mother instilled some small measure of honor and integrity. My family has a history of standing our ground during hard times.

I believe the forces of greed, the concentration of power, and the exclusion of average citizens are a clear and present danger to our country.

And I know where I stand.

What if I rush the cockpit to pull the stick back?

 

[diogenes]

A little stroll down memory lane when laissez faire roamed the earth.


http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/2i.htm



http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/1930s.html



Is this not a peversion of John Adam's wisdom? He wrote that great grandfathers study war, so the grandfathers can study politics, so the fathers can study business, so the grandsons can study history and literature. Note the progression from serving the needs of the state to fulfilling the needs of the individual. He, along with all of the Founders, rejected the long standing notion that the citizen was the tool of the state.

So should we all.

 

[airlineorphan]

mweiss wrote:

I won't disagree with you and orphan here, but ultimately if you're going to consider management to be your enemy, then you need to leave the company.

Thanks for the advice but it is unfortunately glib. Ya see, the problem of management going after workers and workers needing to defend themselves isn't limited to US Airways. It's even happening at fun-to-work-here Southwest, where management has stonewalled the flight attendants in negotiations. THe conflict is simply a fact of capitalism, which is why working people have to organize themselves for their own self defense.

No place to run to, no place to hide. You are likely correct about the pitch of descent and dire proximity to harsh terrain, but what if we don't have parachutes? What if most of the rest of the economy is on a variety of calamitous vectors? What if the pitch down is because jumpseating management has screwed up the weight and balance with all the money in its wallet? And because foolish management flight plans have placed us in this dive?

I agree with Diogenes though. If everytime I got out of Dodge everytime I thought management or members of the government were behaving like "Evil-Doers" I'd always be running. I prefer to make a stand and help those around me who are willing to make a stand.

BTW, I watched Casablanca last night. Rick (Bogart) asks Lazlo, "Why do you keep fighting? Is it worth it?" Lazlo (a leader of the Czech anti-nazi underground) responds, "You might as well ask me to stop breathing. If I stop, I die. If we stop fighting, the whole world will die." For those of you who counsel giving up, I recommend you take an evening off and watch this great movie.

Sincerely,
-Airlineorphan

 

[diogenes]

Thanks, Piney Bob,


Naaaahhh, the Libertarians are too organized for me!

 

[mweiss]

If I followed that logic, due to my opinion of President Bush, I'd have to leave the country.

Lord knows I've thought about it... :blink: But the key difference is I am absolutely certain that this nation will outlast Bush's presidency. Are you equally sure US Airways will outlast Dave?

I believe the forces of greed, the concentration of power, and the exclusion of average citizens are a clear and present danger to our country.

As do I. But that's tangential to whether or not I choose to work for a particular employer.

What if I rush the cockpit to pull the stick back?

To do so would require becoming part of the solution, rather than part of the problem.

 

[mweiss]

I agree with Diogenes though. If everytime I got out of Dodge everytime I thought management or members of the government were behaving like "Evil-Doers" I'd always be running. I prefer to make a stand and help those around me who are willing to make a stand.

Speaking along the lines of organized labor...if enough of you decided enough was enough and left the company, US Airways would have a hard time getting people from Point A to Point B.

But my ultimate point here was that taking a cross-armed stand of "we've budged enough, now it's time for you to do it" is all well and good, but I'm afraid your company doesn't have enough time left for this game of chicken.

 

[PITbull]

I think the great frustration of most employee groups stems from the lack of change operationally at the company. A great point was made at the meeting with Dr. Bronner. U could have the finest CEO in the world and it wouldn't help one bit without strong leadership in our operations. We can do all the studies, get all the suggestions, or take all the polls in the world, but without the leadership to effect change, nothing ever will. All of our VPs seem to be on absolute level footing with regard to power or influence, but no true tie-breaker exists at U. Who decides what changes will be instituted? It appears no one. PHL has become a test case for the airline. If we can't fix PHL, we can't fix anything. What we lack is a leader to take the bull by the horns and start the processs of really changing our company...if it isn't too late already.
We can debate the merits and pitfalls of trade unionism till the cows come home, but the bottom line is, people want to be treated fairly. When they can't acheive that individually, then they will try to accomplish it in numbers. The statement was made that no company has a union that didn't do something to deserve it. That especially rings true in fields like transportation and aviation where employees really enjoy their work. Unfortunantly that enjoyment is exploited by managements in search of bigger profits...and bigger bonuses.
So where does that leave us? Pretty much in the same sewer we were in months ago. I felt there was some opportunity after the meeting last Friday...right up to the point where I read the comments made publicly by our CEO. Basically, it's business as usual at U boys and girls. More job cuts, pay cuts, benefit cuts, and longer hours for less pay. I don't mind giving when I see it has some potential, but I swear, I'm having real problems seeing the point this morning. Some say "let's take the cuts" others just say "no". Many can't afford more cuts i.e. our agents have been cut to the bone. How much more can they be expected to give? Sure, we in the pilot group have a little wiggle room left, but it won't be enough to fix this income shortfall. I personally think our biggest problem is a complete lack of definition of who we are and where we are going. Simply put, where is the plan? AFA, make sure you ask that question clearly because we at ALPA dropped the ball. CWA, join AFA and make your voices heard "where's the plan"? IAM...well I almost forgot, you guys ain't talking, are you. Well you can ask your buddies at AFA and CWA what the plan was. And ask them what their Plan B is also when GE pulls it's financing, our credit rating is lowered, and the auditors declare us persona non grata.

Good luck to us all,

A320 Driver :unsure:

A320 Driver,

Very well said, my friend.

AFA meets the messiah tomorrow in CLT. All that you bring up will be asked.

Report out at 9:00 p.m.

 

[PITbull]

I won't disagree with you and orphan here, but ultimately if you're going to consider management to be your enemy, then you need to leave the company. Seriously. I mean, if you were in an airplane with pitch down 45deg and 10000ft agl, and you had a chance to bail safely, why wouldn't you? What's the point in rushing the cockpit and seeing if you can just push the control column a little further???

mweiss,

Your argument is weak at best. Why would we, the employees, leave our company?

MANAGEMENT IS NOT THE COMPANY. They are but "a small part of the whole" and they only visit!

 

[mweiss]

Your argument is weak at best. Why would we, the employees, leave our company?

Because as long as you view management as a bunch of interlopers who are the enemy, it won't matter who's there, US Airways will still fail.