How Could The Ramp Be Changed For The Better?

[Rico]

Well, IMHO we should not outsource utility if we can maintain it in house for competitive rates.

But the problem with that at Airways IMO is the IAM.

You see, 700uw's comment:

Don't knock one group because they have better negotiators.

Is the crux of the problem, in that Utility has been able to maintain high pay and expensive work rules based only upon the negotiating leverage of the Airways Mechanics.

Planes can fly just fine without utility, they do every day over at Express. Planes go nowhere without Mechanics, and that's a big difference.

Thus we cannot count upon in-house Utility to remain competitive here because they will draw from the mechanic's negotiating power to maintain above market rates for their work.

And Utility will not be a thing of the past, watch, wait and see

No, of course not, but like Fueling an aircraft, it is a function that has little to do with Aircraft Maintenance, and is far more cost effective to be outsourced than would most maintenance functions.

 

[unit4clt]

Rico,

It makes no difference what workgroup one works in, war has been declared on the entire workforce. Just because you put up the white flag, does'nt mean others will. :angry: :angry:

 

[700UW]

Dont be jealous that Utility makes more then you flying a brazilian barbie jet.

And Utility is the lowest paid of the organized group.

And you forget, there is utility in heavy maintenance that do everything from crawling into the wing and cleaning the fuel tank to buffing the crown of an airplane.

I love it how all you aviation experts know so much and how you can save the company.

There is 1,000 left on the property, it would save $41,000,000 a year to get rid of utility according to the company, but I can tell you it will cost them more to outsource it.

You pay a utility person now $13.00 and say in a bank in CLT that person can dump up to 8 planes per bank, a vendor charges $30 per plane. So what is more economical, $13 for 8 planes or $240.

Maybe Rico the new US Airways savior can figure it out.

And your brazilian barbie jet will be flying at Mesa soon enough.

 

[unit4clt]

I believe pilots like Rico think mistakenly, that the more jobs the company contracts out, the more profit sharing for them.

 

[UseYourHead]

Give it up....

You cannot dispatch an Airbus without an autothrust system, let alone without an autopilot.

In years past I took airplanes without an autopilot...in fact I flew for years without an autopilot installed at all during airline operations....

This is not the first time I have seen this statement from you, do you have a hard-on for the pilot group? What have we done to you (except doing our part to help keep us in business), or would you rather lose your job so you can collect unemployment?

:-(

Just the same as all the pilots that refuse an aircraft when the autopilot is on MEL.

Guess you don't get paid to fly, you get paid to let the computer do it for you?

[post="196398"][/post]​

 

[Rico]

Well, Like I said, I think we should maintain Utility IN-HOUSE if we can get the work to be done at competitive rates. I just doubt that can be accomplished or maintained with the IAM.

Besides all the whitty remarks and quips, you chose to ignore my point that Airways Utility has maintained and will continue to force abnormally high pay and expensive work rules by utilizing the negotiating leverage of the Airways Mechanics. Just does not seem fair (to the mechanics), nor competitive (in the industry) to me.

Another strange quote you brought up 700...

You pay a utility person now $13.00 and say in a bank in CLT that person can dump up to 8 planes per bank, a vendor charges $30 per plane. So what is more economical, $13 for 8 planes or $240.

Your example sounds neat, but I know of no such single Utility person that works for only 13.00/hr (with no benefits), and continually dumps lavs all day long, 8 Planes each and every hour they work, do you..?

Utility fuctions differ little from Fueling or Catering when it comes to the cost effectivness of maintaining the function in house, or outsourcing. You know as well as I do that what you quoted above is a non-negotiated price ("call up" cost from FBO vendor vs. a lower negotiated rate). That rate is not the rate that needs to be payed for a ongoing contract. No different than getting Fuel from a non-contracted vendor, in which the price is substantially more than what it would cost from our normal source.

Saying that one guy only makes 13 bucks, only works that one hour (during the bank), does not sit around at all between banks, and that they cheapest Airways could contract out ongoing lav dumps is 30$ is not exactly telling it like it is... So please stop muddling up the issue with nonsense like that 700.

BTW, you really cannot brag about making such a high salary in one part of your post, and then claim that it would be so much cheaper to keep things the way they are (in the very same post) without ruining your argument.

 

[700UW]

It is not nonsense, it is the way it is. Just like in EWR, US pays a vendor $350 to reposition a plane at night and another $350 to move it back to the gate. When the Fleet Service at US are all ready trained for that. That is reality jack, accept it.

Why do you think the planes dont get serviced at outstations unless they absolutly have to?

Cause it costs money.

And what I quoted is the MAGSA rate which airlines charge each other for all types of servicing and maintenance done, it is in the Maintenance Policy and Procedure manual. See those of us who know our jobs and work in the respective departments knows what is going on. US charges UA or NW or any other airline in the system $30 per plane to service and visa versa when they do it for US. It is not an FBO call up rate.

Try again.

 

[D M G]

Take the tv.s out of the break rooms at phl...maybe/just maybe we can get planes loaded fairly close to schedule. Last sunday...20 rampers watching the Eagles on TV while the europe flltts all waited to be loaded...

[post="196367"][/post]​

Where were all the extra Managers from around the system that the company sent to PHL after the cuts were imposed? There are so many Managers that they're tripping over each other. Couldn't any of them get the rampers to load the flights?

 

[Rico]

No duh...

It was your stupid example, not mine. You just admitted that it is a non negotiated rate. A standard rate, that IS what I was saying. No different than buying fuel at a non contracted rate = more expensive for the standard vs. cheaper for a negotiated rate.

As for Outsourcing

I am all for keeping that work in house if you can do it as cheap as an outside vendor. I just doubt you can ever accept that.

But you yourself bragged about how much you make. No offense meant, but that makes little sense to do so in the same post you are trying to defend your cost work group's cost effectivness.

Now you can call me or some plane all the names you want. But the fact remains that you have what you have based upon the negotiating leverage provided to you from the Airways Mechanics. Not upon your own work group's productivity or economic return to the airline.

The industry has moved on from that with the rapid rise of AMFA, so to remain competitive we can no longer afford to pay you above market rates (vs. what it could be done for by outsourcing). That is reality jack, accept it.

 

[D M G]

Yeah.......and when the captain on my flight went in to the break room to see if he could get our plane loaded....the supervisor was close to tears and said that he had "no control over this"

[post="196371"][/post]​

Where were all the extra Managers from around the system that the company sent to PHL after the cuts were imposed? There are so many Managers that they're tripping over each other. Couldn't any of them get the rampers to load the flights?

 

[700UW]

Reality is Mesa will be taking your Brazilian barbie Jet since it is more cost effective.

And Amfa is the union leading the way for outsourcing, they are down to half the mechanics they had at NWA when they were certified.

At ACA, they let part-time mechanics (i-air).

And at WN and UAL they inherited contracts, never negotiated anything.

So if that is a jab, it is a bad attempt.

 

[Rico]

Not a jab, it is reality.

Mechanics no longer feel the need to "carry" Utility. Thus the rise of AMFA.

And thanks again for making my point. Mesa nor CHQ have not taken our E-170 flying because we can do it in house for 8% cheaper.

Like I said, I am all for keeping things in house as long as they can be done as cost effective as they can be done by outsourcing. MDA is a prime example of that, and if my work group can do that, what makes you guys so special that you cannot...?

Like my pay? No, but I would rather make what I make and have a job, than to see that flying shift off to CHQ. You think I would prefer to start over for even less at the bottom of their list...? Duh

Look, If you can make 40K cleaning anything, anywhere else, knock yourself out. But good luck finding that. Reality is that your dumb example makes no sense.

Utility work is outsourced or handled in house (for far far less than what you cost) everyday for far less than the BS numbers you provided, It is called US Airways Express... And just like everything else with IAm, MDA serves as a prime example that your work fuctions can be done at mainline, for far less. Remember, you guys lost that arbitration...

You can blah blah blah about banks and per plane #'s, but the fact is that cleaners making 40K a year is something easily replaced for less. Get used to the idea.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Your example sounds neat, but I know of no such single Utility person that works for only 13.00/hr (with no benefits), and continually dumps lavs all day long, 8 Planes each and every hour they work, do you..?

[post="196419"][/post]​

And your example sounds neat till you look a little further than one bank....

Take CLT and say 280 mainline flts per day (that's a guess, anyone have a good number) spread over 8 banks. That 35 flts per bank (keeping it simple here).

Contractor @ $30 each = $8400.

Utility @ 8 flts per bank dumped per person = two shifts of 5 each, or 10 people. You would have to have total compensation of $105 per hour ($8400 / 10 utility = $840 per person per shift / 8 hr shift = $105) to equal the cost of the contractor. Assuming benefits = 100% of pay, that's $52 per hour pay rate and $52 per hour benefits cost.

Plus, you have the utility sitting around between banks to do whatever you need.

Now convince me that $30 per hour, or $20, or $15 is too expensive.

Jim

 

[700UW]

Rico,

Guess what, AMFA represents Utility too and at NWA they make $20 an hour.

Also represent them at UAL and they make more then the Utility at US.

Keep reaching.

It is called class and craft.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Rico,

I'll admit I forgot one thing - 7 day a week operation. So throw in 50% more utility workers to cover the other 2 days. Oh heck, just double the number to 20. That drops total compensation to $52 per hour. If you assume benefits costs 100% of pay rate, that's still $26 per hour to equal the contractor.

That throws out my $30 per hour as too high, but not the others....

Now convince me....

Jim