Glad to have located our flyboys, or is it "the life of the rich and famous"

[Taipan]

Now, the company is telling us they need a "Continental-type" cost structure to become profitable!
SCARY, well just as I thought looks like the company is going to try to hit out of the park, a 500 FT tape measure job , if thats what they are telling you. [] I dont think the company and the IAM have meet yet and were what 10 days into there internal 30 day countdown. Here is my take if we get a new CEO then I feel most likely they are trying not to got into CH 11, if we get MR Brace as the 100 day acting CEO start looking for the judge.

 

[mastermechanic]

O.K...We have more fuel to throw on the fire. Talked to a fellow mechanic in Denver who was laid off, then re-called. Said he was in the credit union and ran into a pilot in line. The pilot quoted something to the effect of…" I haven't flown since Sept 11...and they keep giving me checks" and laughed. I'm sure this is probably out of context, but these rumors and innuendos are not doing our pilot/mechanic relationship any good. If we can't get a solid copy of the pilot contract and provisions among the rank and file this is only going to exacerbate our tenuous relationship at best. I'm biting my tongue and holding my comments but we need some real facts and understanding. I’m hoping this can be provided to shut some of this stuff up.

 

[ual727fo]

That pilot has not flown for a year because the company still hasn't sent him to training for another
aircraft. Some 727/737 pilots still haven't been to training. (10 capt. 10 f/o's on the 727 at ORD alone.) This is the result of traning issues, not the pilot contract. Relax Buddy!

 

[Bear96]

727fo you are totally missing the point. Then telling someone else to "relax" only makes it worse. It is right in line with what a lot of other employees would expect of some pilots and this attitude not only illustrates the point nicely but is making the situation more difficult.

Additionally I think it is false to say this is not a pilot contract issue. I don't begrudge you this pay protection but by saying it is not a pilot contract issue, does that mean UAL could choose NOT to pay these pilots while they are awaiting a spot in training, and it wouldn't violate some part of your contract?

 

[casual rat]

I just thought that I'd put my two cents in: THERE'S NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT! There, now I feel better...[]

 

[ual727fo]

How am I missing the point? These pilots were qualified to fly a type that was retired. Is it not reasonable to pay these people while they await training? You would expect the same I think. Master mechanic needs to relax.

 

[mastermechanic]

This is why we are at a crossroads. At the Oakland Mtc Ctr, work was reduced down to 2 bays from 4. Over 400 mechanics were surplused and many put on the street. They are also waiting for work! Yet, 7 managers were retained, 4 foremen on each dock for each shift plus business coordinators and plenty of other who knows what still are there yet 50% of the production no longer exists. And we have pilots on payroll waiting for work? No, this "recovery" is not a plan to make us competitive and viable in the future. It is simply a means to maintain status quo. Everyone take a cut so we can all just stay the same. I talked to the guys, calmed by alot I had learned from this board. But the feeling from everyone I talked to is the same. No!

 

[casual rat]

What exactly doesn't the Company have to gain from a BK? ESOP shares are gone, and so is the employee's say in matters of importance. The company gets the work/wage changes they seek and they get to renegotiate debt. I don't see why they wouldn't. Sure, our credit'll be bad, but hey, we've got 2 Billion in the bank, and assets to fund more executive parachutes with--and isn't that the point after all? Figure it out folks...this isn't about you--it sure as hell ain't about me either. It's about funding a corporation's (Industry's) greed. ESOP didn't work, and that was the first sign that something was 'fishy'--at least to me. The AMFA vs IAM 'battle' has played into someone's hands...The 'Summer from Hell' was perfectly orchestrated to further alienate the workforce. If you simply did your job, you weren't a part of it... yet many people screwed the customer--didn't we? So figure it out....It's always been about the customer and not 'me'. When you decided to affect the customer, you chose to become a very small human being IMHO. For those of you who didn't, I still say "THERE'S NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT".[(] Thank you for playing...

 

[spacewaitress]

----------------
On 8/27/2002 10:31:27 AM

How am I missing the point? These pilots were qualified to fly a type that was retired. Is it not reasonable to pay these people while they await training?
----------------

This is ridiculous! What's reasonable is to furlough.

 

[Rhino]

Space, that would require furloughing out of seniority.

When training becomes available for these more senior pilots, they will displace more junior pilots, who will displace others in turn until the furloughs do occur.

Unplanned aircraft drawdowns always incur this expense.

 

[flaptrack]

Whaaaaaaaa

come out here!

 

[mancityfan]

Let's see, we started with Mastermechanic ranting and raving and looking for a fight. I tried to placate the situation and it apparently worked. This being a UAL board, that did not last long, and he came back with another bunch of "fighting talk" about pilots who have not flown for a while. Now, far be it from me, a lowly 300 Captain on reserve who HAS been flying quite a lot recently, to butt into this, BUT it is getting out of hand again!

Space waitrees,

You obviously have little knowledge of what did and continues to happen with the pilots, so I would kindly suggest checking your AFA charts and graphs on your website and coming back with better ammo.

Casual Rat,

Not sure how to help you!

For the rest of us, let's rehash this one more (last?) time, shall we?!

On September 11, many people died in a terrorist act that resulted in the company grounding two entire fleets of aircraft on the same day at the end of October. Pilots, just like F/As and Mechanics, work based on seniority. Apparently, some pilots on those two junior fleets were SENIOR enough NOT to get furloughed. One would expect that ALL the Captains and about half the First Officers fell into this category.

This led to a series of pilot bumps, whereby pilots on the bottom end of the seniority on each piece o equipment were SURPLUSSED to a different aircraft that their seniority could hold. For some pilots, this was a move UP, but the VAST majority of pilots moved DOWN, some by two airplane types. As many of you are aware, we get paid by seat and fleet, and thus MOST pilos surplussed lost LARGE dollar amounts (I know, your heart is bleeding!). As an example, many pilots were forced to move OUT of the LEFT seat of the 300 into the RIGHT seat of the 767. This is a pay CUT of about $38,772 for a 7th year pilot (about the seniority that had to do this). Some of those pilots WOULD HAVE BEEN PAY PROTECTED under Contract 2000, but the company's "force majeure" argument nullified this. ALPA filed a grievance over this, but it is part of the ERP we are conceding to the company!

As is ALWAYS the case when the company FORCES a major training event, the training center becomes quickly saturated, and training delays occur. Add to this the fact that the company realized that they cut too deeply and had to recall some pilots to their OLD positions AFTER they were bumped, and you have some people doing multiple training events within the same 8 month period! Conversely, some pilots were not scheduled for a LONG TIME (someone has to be the last one trained, right?!) During that time, they continued to get paid, even though, due to GOVERNMENT AND UAL RULES they could not LEGALLY FLY FOR UAL!

Now, far be it from me to congratulate the company for spnding thousands of dollars for pilots NOT to fly, but if you were a 12 year seniority pilot, would YOU expect the company to say "even though we arbitrarily decided to ground the fleet of aircraft you are qualified to fly , and we know you cannot legally fly any of our other airplanes right now, we are NOT going to pay you anything while you wait to be trained on OUR schedule." Would THAT be the solution? Let's bankrupt a family because UAL decided they wanted to remove this senior pilot's flying position?

If you consider that a contractual issue, then fine. It is a contractual issue that ALL the unions agree on! The senior employee does NOT get screwed ahead of the junior employee! If a Flight Attendant was NOT qualified to fly internationally, but she was on reserve and an international trip opened up, do you think the F/A should be docked a suitable number of trip days because she is not trained by the company to perform that duty? Or maybe an aircaft blows an engine on takeoff and shreds some composites and it comes to the hangar, where the avionics guy is and the company says "Hey, you are paid to be a mechanic here, fix this composite material so we can fly this aircraft!" When he says that he is not certified for it, should the company dock his wages??

We have to get a little serious and realize that while it is ALWAYS in vogue to sh!t on pilots and complain they are overpaid and underworked, this is not the instance that proves your point (not that there IS any proof of it!) In this case, it is the pilot doing EXACTLY what the company asked him to do, through no fault of his own.

Now, whether a pilot should be mouthing off about it in the Credit Union (if it did indeed happen), is another story. Such idiots deserve ALL the flak they get and more besides! Apart from the insensitivity of the point, it is just plain crass to discuss ANYTHING related to your job and finances in front of other workers. While I certainly do NOT apologize for being a well-paid employee, I do NOT try to rub it in other people's noses.

Now, can we all just get along?

mancityfan

 

[flaptrack]

Like my father told me, in a very cold way:

It is supply and demand.

 

[mastermechanic]

God******, I did not start this for a fight purpose. This is a real event, affecting everyone and should be on the table. I got a pilot laughing and receiving a paycheck standing next to a mechanic who got laid off because of Sept 11 and is probably out the door again! Your right, this is hopeless. We'll take our chances with the judge, WE ARE TIRED OF THIS WHOLE F***ING GAME WITH MANAGEMENT AND THE PILOTS!

 

[casual rat]

Mancityfan...I wasn't asking for help....sometimes the pessimist in me props up from time to time though...