🌟 Exclusive Amazon Black Friday Deals 2024 🌟
Don’t miss out on the best deals of the season! Shop now 🎁
Get Ready Boyz!
- Thread starter Hopeful
- Start date
Decision 2004
Veteran
- Mar 12, 2004
- 1,618
- 0
NyQuill said:
I don't need to call them, already have all the information one could want regarding your history.
You would never make it as a welder either.
Try going for Failure Analysis where your experience will count.
Nightwatch
Veteran
- Jun 8, 2004
- 888
- 2
Hey Dripster, I tried that number and got "Dial A Prayer"! You being funny?
Don't you guys ever get tired of this pointless back and fourth B.S.
Some of you might want to review this post by the moderator, especially the part about not disclosing personal information or IDENTITIESand the part about NAME CALLING, PROFANITY OR INSULTS I think there are a few people in here that need to get the boot if they cannot be professional with their pointless opinions
let's face it AMFA will not get in at AA this year the timing is not right, it may happen some day but with everyone worring about just keeping their pensions and their jobs the last thing they will be worring about is what powerless Union is representing them, soon everyone will see just how powerless ALL of the Unions are right now as ALL of the Unions will be taking concessions regardless of how hard they fight, maybe we should be thinking about how we are ALL going to survive these hard times instead of fighting with each other over Unions. :unsure:
Union fighting at this particular time makes absolutley no sense to me at all. :huh:
I think some of you guys should really think about getting a LIFE
Todd B Nov 11 2004, 08:38 AM Post #1
Rank: Senior Member
Group: Moderator
Posts: 289
Joined: 11-January 03
Member No.: 1,618
We have received several complaints in the last few weeks about this forum. The moderators have not been very active in moderating this forum. This will change if the complaints continue. It seems that only a handful are causing the problems.
Please observe our rules:name calling, profanity, insults, disclosing personal information or identities, etc.
Any abuse will automatically result in a 7 day suspension.
Some of you might want to review this post by the moderator, especially the part about not disclosing personal information or IDENTITIESand the part about NAME CALLING, PROFANITY OR INSULTS I think there are a few people in here that need to get the boot if they cannot be professional with their pointless opinions
let's face it AMFA will not get in at AA this year the timing is not right, it may happen some day but with everyone worring about just keeping their pensions and their jobs the last thing they will be worring about is what powerless Union is representing them, soon everyone will see just how powerless ALL of the Unions are right now as ALL of the Unions will be taking concessions regardless of how hard they fight, maybe we should be thinking about how we are ALL going to survive these hard times instead of fighting with each other over Unions. :unsure:
Union fighting at this particular time makes absolutley no sense to me at all. :huh:
I think some of you guys should really think about getting a LIFE
Todd B Nov 11 2004, 08:38 AM Post #1
Rank: Senior Member
Group: Moderator
Posts: 289
Joined: 11-January 03
Member No.: 1,618
We have received several complaints in the last few weeks about this forum. The moderators have not been very active in moderating this forum. This will change if the complaints continue. It seems that only a handful are causing the problems.
Please observe our rules:name calling, profanity, insults, disclosing personal information or identities, etc.
Any abuse will automatically result in a 7 day suspension.
Nightwatch
Veteran
- Jun 8, 2004
- 888
- 2
Thanks for pointing that out Raptor. How shallow of them.
Decision 2004
Veteran
- Mar 12, 2004
- 1,618
- 0
Bob Owens, check your PM
Nightwatch said:
Well you know Nightwatch all of us have lost are heads at one time or another including me but I think if everyone tries alittle harder we can all be more professional in our opinions.
We are all in for some really really hard times and fighting with each other at this time does not make alot of sense to me, it seems to me that we should be concentrating on the real enemy, other wise there will be NO Aviation Unions left for anyone.
I am not trying to ruffle any feathers on either side just trying to smooth some out on both sides.
Raptor said:Well you know Nightwatch all of us have lost are heads at one time or another including me but I think if everyone tries alittle harder we can all be more professional in our opinions.
We are all in for some really really hard times and fighting with each other at this time does not make alot of sense to me, it seems to me that we should be concentrating on the real enemy, other wise there will be NO Aviation Unions left for anyone.
I am not trying to ruffle any feathers on either side just trying to smooth some out on both sides.
[post="201165"][/post]
next post, sorry about that.
Do you really believe that the TWU will fight?
Ed Koziatek told me flat out that the TWU will never strike AA.
Little has proven to be worse than Koziatek.
We have no means to remove Little.
If your elected representatives call for his removal they will be removed.
Our unions are weak because the top leaders are useless. Despite AFL-CIO affiliation the IAM, TWU, ALPA, AFA and even the CWA have all gotten their members to accept rediculous concessions.
In early 2003 when the papers were saying that the judge may abrogate UALs contracts I sent out an E-mail saying that the Unions should all walk out if he did. That is the kind of clout that AFL-CIO affiliation should bring, but instead Jim Little sent me an E-mail demanding that I retract my statement!
What do you think would have happened if we had? The fact is that the government and the companies know that the unions are weak despite the fact that if they were properly lead they could shut down the country.
Rivalries between affiliated unions and their greed for dues has displaced the welfare of the membership.
During my depostion by the TWUs lawyer, he questioned me on that statement about shuting down the whole thing.
Q. i'm ask you what you are aware of, I am not asking for a legal opinion. Is it your understanding that under the Railway Labor Act, all unions would be permitted under the Railway Labor Act to go on strike?
A. It is my understanding that a strike for political action--- For economic action such as increased wages or something like that, under these circumstances , it would be illegal. However it is unclear that such an action as a political action, would be illegal.
Q I have no further questions.
What I was trying to say, although it does not come out that clear in the minutes is that the RLA prohibits strikes for economic reasons however our right to strike as a political expression, in reaction to government action is very different than striking in order to get more money from our employer. It is our right to withhold our labor, especially when the courts are clearly acting in behalf of the companies at our expense. The RLA is clear the the prohibition on striking is tied to the maintenance of the contract, no contract, no prohibition. If one contract is voided through BK then all are just as useless.
It was not our actions or decisions that put these companies in the financial distress that they claimed to be in. We should not allow the courts to treat us as if thats the case. The law clearly states that the contracts must be "onerous". Since most contracts between the airlines and their workers were for the most part very similar they could not meet that requirement, and these companies were not asking to meet competitors but rather to drastically undercut them. Their demands were "onerous" upon the workers.
Our willingness to stand up for this right, as any other, is the only real guarantee we have of any rights.
The only way the TWU would call for a strike against AA is if the company refused to continue to provide "check off" services and cut off the $3.1 million.
Ed Koziatek told me flat out that the TWU will never strike AA.
Little has proven to be worse than Koziatek.
We have no means to remove Little.
If your elected representatives call for his removal they will be removed.
Our unions are weak because the top leaders are useless. Despite AFL-CIO affiliation the IAM, TWU, ALPA, AFA and even the CWA have all gotten their members to accept rediculous concessions.
In early 2003 when the papers were saying that the judge may abrogate UALs contracts I sent out an E-mail saying that the Unions should all walk out if he did. That is the kind of clout that AFL-CIO affiliation should bring, but instead Jim Little sent me an E-mail demanding that I retract my statement!
What do you think would have happened if we had? The fact is that the government and the companies know that the unions are weak despite the fact that if they were properly lead they could shut down the country.
Rivalries between affiliated unions and their greed for dues has displaced the welfare of the membership.
During my depostion by the TWUs lawyer, he questioned me on that statement about shuting down the whole thing.
Q. i'm ask you what you are aware of, I am not asking for a legal opinion. Is it your understanding that under the Railway Labor Act, all unions would be permitted under the Railway Labor Act to go on strike?
A. It is my understanding that a strike for political action--- For economic action such as increased wages or something like that, under these circumstances , it would be illegal. However it is unclear that such an action as a political action, would be illegal.
Q I have no further questions.
What I was trying to say, although it does not come out that clear in the minutes is that the RLA prohibits strikes for economic reasons however our right to strike as a political expression, in reaction to government action is very different than striking in order to get more money from our employer. It is our right to withhold our labor, especially when the courts are clearly acting in behalf of the companies at our expense. The RLA is clear the the prohibition on striking is tied to the maintenance of the contract, no contract, no prohibition. If one contract is voided through BK then all are just as useless.
It was not our actions or decisions that put these companies in the financial distress that they claimed to be in. We should not allow the courts to treat us as if thats the case. The law clearly states that the contracts must be "onerous". Since most contracts between the airlines and their workers were for the most part very similar they could not meet that requirement, and these companies were not asking to meet competitors but rather to drastically undercut them. Their demands were "onerous" upon the workers.
Our willingness to stand up for this right, as any other, is the only real guarantee we have of any rights.
The only way the TWU would call for a strike against AA is if the company refused to continue to provide "check off" services and cut off the $3.1 million.
Bob it does not really matter what the Union leaders want, it matters what the members want, we do out number the leaders by quite a bit, I think that in the end the members will do what they really want to do no matter what the leaders want.
Most of us don't pay a whole lot of attention to what leaders say anyway.
The members are the ones with the real power, should we choose to use it.
I do think that the members here in Tulsa have very little back bone therefore I think it will take quite alot for them to fight back against the company, but hey either a guy has back bone or he does not, it is something you are pretty much just stuck with.
I wouldn't have alot of hope for us or our Industry right now Bob, I really think our days are numbered no matter what we do, right now I am just happy that I only owe about 40,000 on my house right now and my house payments are low, so that when I hit the street with my 18 years of seniority I will still be able to make it working at Home Depot for another 13 years till I retire, All of us had better start polishing up those resumes cause I think these Jobs are not going to be around much longer, and the ones that will manage to hang on will not be getting paid very much, that is just the way things are going to be very soon I am afraid.
I don't blame the TWU for what is going to happen to us anymore than I blame AMFA for what is going to happen at United, it's not the Union's fault's it is the company's fault's for not raising prices enough to pay the bills.
I truly think the days of Aviation Union's are coming to an end as is the craft of A&P Mechanic.
Most of us don't pay a whole lot of attention to what leaders say anyway.
The members are the ones with the real power, should we choose to use it.
I do think that the members here in Tulsa have very little back bone therefore I think it will take quite alot for them to fight back against the company, but hey either a guy has back bone or he does not, it is something you are pretty much just stuck with.
I wouldn't have alot of hope for us or our Industry right now Bob, I really think our days are numbered no matter what we do, right now I am just happy that I only owe about 40,000 on my house right now and my house payments are low, so that when I hit the street with my 18 years of seniority I will still be able to make it working at Home Depot for another 13 years till I retire, All of us had better start polishing up those resumes cause I think these Jobs are not going to be around much longer, and the ones that will manage to hang on will not be getting paid very much, that is just the way things are going to be very soon I am afraid.
I don't blame the TWU for what is going to happen to us anymore than I blame AMFA for what is going to happen at United, it's not the Union's fault's it is the company's fault's for not raising prices enough to pay the bills.
I truly think the days of Aviation Union's are coming to an end as is the craft of A&P Mechanic.
Nightwatch
Veteran
- Jun 8, 2004
- 888
- 2
Good points Raptor, but might I add that some also "use" the union official's soft stance on items to cloak their own unwillingness to show aggressivenesss. To many have become comfortable with their style of living and are suspect of a change. They lay blame to their leadership, thus labelling themselves as sheep.
I'd like to see our floor's posture be one of "strike" and openly agree to each other that it is the only way to either save our profession or keep from whoring it at lower wages.
I'd like to see our floor's posture be one of "strike" and openly agree to each other that it is the only way to either save our profession or keep from whoring it at lower wages.
Raptor said:
What about blaming the twu for the past 18 years of what happened? Don't tell me you have forgotten about the inventor of the B-check, flex benefits, pre-funding, SRP program, the complete gutting of our contract under the so-called BK threat. Our contract is now what is being discussed industry wide at bargaining tables. Every management team wants what AA got for language, union-busting language.
It's the unions job to hold the line and/or increase wages, benefits, and contractual language and the twu couldn't even do that during AA's good years. For every raise we got over the years, they gave up more language or benefits, and then they gave it all up last year.
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
"I wouldn't have alot of hope for us or our Industry right now Bob, I really think our days are numbered no matter what we do, right now I am just happy that I only owe about 40,000 on my house right now and my house payments are low, so that when I hit the street with my 18 years of seniority I will still be able to make it working at Home Depot for another 13 years till I retire, All of us had better start polishing up those resumes cause I think these Jobs are not going to be around much longer, and the ones that will manage to hang on will not be getting paid very much, that is just the way things are going to be very soon I am afraid.
I don't blame the TWU for what is going to happen to us anymore than I blame AMFA for what is going to happen at United, it's not the Union's fault's it is the company's fault's for not raising prices enough to pay the bills.
I truly think the days of Aviation Union's are coming to an end as is the craft of A&P Mechanic."
Raptor, sounds kind of like you are willing to give up. I know you support our craft & profession. Yes, the situation labor faces now in the airlines is tough but NOT because of labor. It is because of greedy airline executives and inept industrial union leaders (oxymoron). If you are willing to wait till AA turns Tulsa into a spin off of AMR or till you simply are reduced in wages so low you can't make your $40,000 house balance then that is your choice. That is exactly what the airlines want you and others to do. Give up the fight for our profession.
I have stood next to you in Tulsa fighting for a better union. I know you want what is best. The real reason AMTs face a bleak future is because of the industrial unions that allowed outsourcing to begin with. The industrial unions that allowed RETROACTIVE concessions. Industrial unions that allow AMT work to be performed by non-AMTs. Had the iam told NWA to pound sand when they sent aircraft overseas and the afl-cio backed them up with other afl-cio unions things would be very different right now. But this did not happen because industrial unions want dues. And nothing else.
You should blame the twu for what is happening to us. Youshould blame jim little for telling us we would have a full revote and not deliver!
The days of aviation's unions are not numbered. The days of airline INDUSTRIAL unions are numbered. It will take those willing to fight and stand together across this country to fight for what is right.
USAir and UAL need to strike. ALL other unions need to support them. The days of industrial unions remaining isolated from each other need to end. The afl-cio needs to wake the Hell up and use their resources to fight for their members.
I don't blame the TWU for what is going to happen to us anymore than I blame AMFA for what is going to happen at United, it's not the Union's fault's it is the company's fault's for not raising prices enough to pay the bills.
I truly think the days of Aviation Union's are coming to an end as is the craft of A&P Mechanic."
Raptor, sounds kind of like you are willing to give up. I know you support our craft & profession. Yes, the situation labor faces now in the airlines is tough but NOT because of labor. It is because of greedy airline executives and inept industrial union leaders (oxymoron). If you are willing to wait till AA turns Tulsa into a spin off of AMR or till you simply are reduced in wages so low you can't make your $40,000 house balance then that is your choice. That is exactly what the airlines want you and others to do. Give up the fight for our profession.
I have stood next to you in Tulsa fighting for a better union. I know you want what is best. The real reason AMTs face a bleak future is because of the industrial unions that allowed outsourcing to begin with. The industrial unions that allowed RETROACTIVE concessions. Industrial unions that allow AMT work to be performed by non-AMTs. Had the iam told NWA to pound sand when they sent aircraft overseas and the afl-cio backed them up with other afl-cio unions things would be very different right now. But this did not happen because industrial unions want dues. And nothing else.
You should blame the twu for what is happening to us. Youshould blame jim little for telling us we would have a full revote and not deliver!
The days of aviation's unions are not numbered. The days of airline INDUSTRIAL unions are numbered. It will take those willing to fight and stand together across this country to fight for what is right.
USAir and UAL need to strike. ALL other unions need to support them. The days of industrial unions remaining isolated from each other need to end. The afl-cio needs to wake the Hell up and use their resources to fight for their members.
