nycbusdriver
Veteran
Let me get this straight. Without relaxing scope, there would not be all those 50-90 seat regional jets. What would you be doing for work?
Future of 50 seat RJs
- Thread starter Dont call me Shirley
- Start date
Let me get this straight. Without relaxing scope, there would not be all those 50-90 seat regional jets. What would you be doing for work?
gabby
Senior
- Jul 24, 2006
- 306
- 48
I would be at a mainline carrier. Accruing seniority.
Tell me did you have 8000hrs prior to going to Airways?
OP
Dont call me Shirley
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,270
- 306
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #33
Your mention of the F-100 made made think of the "first regional jet" (or "small jet" as some call them, since they are not so much "regional" any more), the F-28. As was discussed some time ago here, it is a shame that US did not replace those with more modern regionals. As a passenger, I hate the CRJ, but wouldn't it be great if aircraft of that size class were flown by mainline crews - sure, at lower pay rate than 737s but still mainline - just as the the F-28 was.?
Not to get into a pilot thread (although I may have already opened that can of worms already) but IMHO, the pilots made a horrendous mistake in not drawing the line at 50 seats. But, true to form, the senior 51% threw the junior 49% under the bus -- just as management knew they would. Solidarity forever indeed.
crazystnic
Veteran
- Sep 28, 2010
- 781
- 727
Your anger is misdirected.
Many of us at Mainline came up thru the commuters, we all had to make that choice of taking a pay cut to start at Mainline... You are not the first and wont be the last..
but your vitriol is again misguided...
I would like nothing more than to bring back the RJ's to mainline..
nycbusdriver
Veteran
No. I had just over 3000 hours, military and scheduled part 135 both. I happened to be lucky enough to have those numbers when the airlines couldn't hire pilots fast enough. Should I apologize to you because fate smiled on me? No. Too bad, so sad for you.
This industry is a crap shoot. Get used to it and get over it if you care to hang around. Go out and get yourself a law degree or and MBA and find something else to do. You may be in that RJ when you turn 65. Who knows? Are you prepared for that?
Hindsight is always 20-20. Would I have been better off being hired by Delta in 1979? Sure. But Piedmont gave me the nod first, and off I went to one of the most progressive, competitive and dynamic carriers in the country. My career trajectory was astounding until USAir came along and messed the whole thing up. Like I said, it's a crap shoot. I took my lumps and hung around.
Shoulda, woulda, coulda.
Get over yourself.
gabby
Senior
- Jul 24, 2006
- 306
- 48
My original post was how wholly owned pilots are getting screwed over because we are wholly owned. Obviously you don't care. Many people are hoping to get with us airways on the 737. Take the type and go to southwest. trust me your childish fighting at airways makes it one of the least desirable airlines to work for.
Keroseneuser
Veteran
- Aug 9, 2011
- 860
- 645
Jeez gabby, Like the other poster I took a healthy paycut to go from leftseat on a "commuter" back in those days to go to a mainline.
I would prefer that the rj's be flown at a mainline, but as long as you have people fresh out of school that wants to fly a jet and will do it for 20 grand a year, it is never ever going to happen.
It is a choice that many of us had to make way back when, and a choice that many are making today.
I remember back when the RJ's were coming on the property here big time post 9/11. Prior to that U had what? about 25 rj's in the entire system? The whole reason that PSA even has jets and is not still flying 25 Do-328's is that they accepted the J4J guys over there. Piedmont had the same package offered to them I believe and they said "Hell no we wont take any J4J guys" Well piedmont is damn near gone, and back before the RJ they were THE usair regional to be at. Like Wolf said back then. "The RJ is a union buster" He was sooo right.
Before the RJ a whole lot of those routes that PSA flys were done with DC-9's, and 737's. Had the mainline pilot groups been able to hold off the RJ, the scene would be very different now. But the economic gain managment teams had for the taking were too strong. The kids willing to fly a 50 seat jet for MCDonald wages made it happen.
Oddly enough, during that time the check haulers flying barons and Navajos' were paying MORE money than the RJ's were and could not get pilots. And to this day if i had a choice I would rather have a guy sitting beside me that had a couple thousand hours at low level IFR in a crappy old baron over a guy that went straight to the RJ out of school when the weather is garbage. Grab just about any night freight check hauler out there and right now he can fly rings around any of us so called "Professional jet pilots" if you take away our flight directors and FMS's. You will never ever be a better instrument pilot than you are as a 135 freight slug. From then on your instrument skills only go down hill.
Your comment about get on the 737 get the type then go to SWA is a prime example. Mgmt. knows a large number will do that to them, so why should they spend the money to hire and train you when that is what you plan to do?
the part about the mainlines not hiring their own regional guys is not new. It goes way back to the beginning of the commuter system. When I came thru is was a given that if you worked for somebody like Comair, Delta was probably not an option, the same held for all the carriers. Not a policy that I agree with, but it has pretty much always been that way.
Crzipilot
Veteran
- Mar 23, 2004
- 906
- 254
Just to fix one little part of your history, I believe all the wholly owneds has formed a joint bargaining group to deal with the RJ and J4J issue. PSA broke ranks behind Piedmont and Allegheny and negotiated a pay scale with their management to offer to ML for the chance to get the jets first. Piedmont and Allegheny were holding the line, for pay and improvements. At the time PSA negotiated a pay rate lower than PDT's Dash 8 pay scales in order to "get the jets on property" Within this pay scale, PSA gave capt's 20-30.00/hr pay raises, and gave most f/o's about a .25 pay raise......
Allegheny I believe was punished vis a vis being folded into PDT, out of the two operators, ALG was a touch more hard liners than PDT, or PDT might have been folded into ALG, MIght be wrong on that aspect, but someone that was at PDT or ALG at the time would have to chime in.
Allegheny I believe was punished vis a vis being folded into PDT, out of the two operators, ALG was a touch more hard liners than PDT, or PDT might have been folded into ALG, MIght be wrong on that aspect, but someone that was at PDT or ALG at the time would have to chime in.
Crzipilot
Veteran
- Mar 23, 2004
- 906
- 254
No, but it was definitely the PSA pilots that broke rank, and agreed to fly those jets for the paltry rates they agreed to. From there you agreed to fly those jets as a new hire, as it was explained with the J4J's leaving you'd upgrade in no time...etc etc......
Keroseneuser
Veteran
- Aug 9, 2011
- 860
- 645
Hmm, I wonder if Gabby was on the property when all that went down? That would be interesting if he was one of the ones that broke ranks and took the lower pay on the rj, only to complain about the results 10 years later.
Crzipilot
Veteran
- Mar 23, 2004
- 906
- 254
I think he wasn't, he was one that was told in the interview, don't worry about the f/o pay, as you won't be in that seat for long. Though I'm positive he was there for the -900 vote. Where the old guard at PSA was almost peeing their pants to get the -900's on property when Mesa was in BK. Even though they are in sect. 6, they negotiated outside of that for a -900 pay scale. This pay scale I believe is either equal or was a tad less than what Mesa pays. With that information in hand, PSA mgmt, handed it over to Tempe. I'm sure from there they presented that to JO and said, here is what we can get your birds operated for. JO in turn turned to his pilots and said, well here it is, PSA has come through again and lowered the bar. Mesa pilots take hit on pay to keep a job. PSA pilots never see the -900, and they wonder why....
Keroseneuser
Veteran
- Aug 9, 2011
- 860
- 645
Then I feel for you. If you were one of the ones that came through school after about 1996 then you were probably sold a wad of BS from day one about how fast you were going to move, and by taking the rj seat at 500 hours how you would be so much more marketable to the majors, or how if you went to "Inset acadamy name here" our ab-initio program is the best on the planet and all the majors want what we are selling etc. Have a Nephew that went that same route and nobody could tell him different. He is doing pretty good now as a Corp jet pilot, but he never got the call for a major and is on call 24/7 365.
The Majors have not really changed much in that time...not yet anyhow. Military guys have the advantage and the most choices where to go, past that a lot of it goes to who you know, what your background is etc. Right now most of the ones doing the hiring at the majors are still from the old school of Military or came up through freight, turboprops, etc. Back as late as about 1998 if you wanted a job slinging gear on a Dash 8 or Slaab 340 you needed 2000 hours to even apply. And it took probably half that in multi PIC to get hired.
Even now, when you are talking about a major, you apply everywhere, and if you are lucky enough to get hired at one you take it. There are thousands out there that apply everywhere and are never lucky enough to ever get the call from anybody.
nycbusdriver
Veteran
We know better than most that US Airways is one of the least desirable airlines to work for. I've known it for over 20 years now. Better start looking for another avenue to that 737 type rating. If mainline hired you tomorrow, you wouldn't move out of the E190 before the last 737 left the property.
So much for THAT grand scheme.
