Free Dan

[Buck]

Steve and the rest of the former TWA should be wary of the contractual collusion of the TWU and the company. History shows that the company will be successful in any contract negotiation and at least one part of the membership of the TWU will lose. It might not be the pensions the former TWA members are waiting on, it could be, again those that are yet employed at American. Yes one part of the membership will lose, because we as a membership are divided and have been so since at least 1983. Neither the TWU nor the real union attitude you and the other former TWA employees have shown will repair the damage done by the TWU.

 

[Steve Connell]

Steve and the rest of the former TWA should be wary of the contractual collusion of the TWU and the company. History shows that the company will be successful in any contract negotiation and at least one part of the membership of the TWU will lose. It might not be the pensions the former TWA members are waiting on, it could be, again those that are yet employed at American. Yes one part of the membership will lose, because we as a membership are divided and have been so since at least 1983. Neither the TWU nor the real union attitude you and the other former TWA employees have shown will repair the damage done by the TWU.

Buck, as long as you have drives of one union against another you will not experience solidarity, the floor and it's members will be split and remain so. You speak of damage, was this by the TWU, or the members within the TWU? When you speak of damage do you mean damage to something in particular?

You state this union at AA has been damaged since 1983. I was not here then but from my research I found the union asked your membership to turn down the contract tendered, yet the floor approved by over 80%, wasn't this also a strike issue at the time? So who do we blame for not getting/obtaining 100% of top wages and benefits at every contract date? The negotiator or the voter?

I know who the majority lies blame to, and this will remain so even if your illustrious AMFA obtains bargaining agent at AA. We will blame AMFA for the floor voting on less than perfect contracts, correct?

You have to remember Buck, you don't judge a person on how he handles the good times.

 

[Buck]

Buck, as long as you have drives of one union against another you will not experience solidarity, the floor and it's members will be split and remain so. You speak of damage, was this by the TWU, or the members within the TWU? When you speak of damage do you mean damage to something in particular?

You state this union at AA has been damaged since 1983. I was not here then but from my research I found the union asked your membership to turn down the contract tendered, yet the floor approved by over 80%, wasn't this also a strike issue at the time? So who do we blame for not getting/obtaining 100% of top wages and benefits at every contract date? The negotiator or the voter?

I know who the majority lies blame to, and this will remain so even if your illustrious AMFA obtains bargaining agent at AA. We will blame AMFA for the floor voting on less than perfect contracts, correct?

You have to remember Buck, you don't judge a person on how he handles the good times.

Why would a solidified membership want to have a replacement drive in the first place?

Do you expect a membership that has experienced twenty years of concessions not to attempt to change the way they do business?

What the TWU does is, scare its own membership to the point of ratification and then blames that same membership. Then they can say we told you to vote no. In 1983 at the creation of the B-Scale, it was the fear of a complete shutdown of TUL that created the cause and effect that is the TWU. They generate fear of massive layoffs and the company plays right along. The company then offers a savior contract package that will save jobs, but the membership must accept contractual concessions of Scope, wages and benefits and whatever else the company dictates. This is the same path that has been the TWU for the last twenty years.

Yes the union has been damaged; it is damage from the pseudo leadership of the locals, which is told what to do from the International. All with the purpose of continual dues flow. It is no longer about unionism; it is about ensuring the flow of International salaries. If the International were concerned about the local member’s welfare, then unionism would unite under the AFL-CIO banner and all unions would flourish.


Strike? at the TWU??? They might lose dues flow. Also the new generation of unionist does not believe in strikes. They would rather accept concessions as long as they have a job. It matters not at what level they are compensated or what their benefit package is. It is how many are employed. We are supposed to better ourselves, not lower our standards.

I believe that you as a former TWA employee could see that the easiest.

Who do we blame? We blame the fear generated by the TWU....

Whether it is AMFA or not, we must change. The membership that has been with the TWU knows this and has attempted change from within. It has been proven to be unsuccessful.

For the desired wage and benefit improvements that we all desire (your pension), we must change the structure at the constitutional level. Even Dennis Burchette and far back as Ed Wilson have attempted this. They were both shown the door.

As for blaming AMFA, this membership will blame AMFA for the contracts "negotiated" by the AFL-CIO affiliated unions even if AMFA did not negotiate them. The membership will blame the AMFA leadership until they learn that they the membership can be more involved at the constitutional level. IT requires a change of attitude and a change at the way of doing business.

Who do you blame for the demise of TWA?

The only good times here at AA/TWU has been the direct reflection of what was negotiated by another union at another airline. But the TWU allowed through their fear based campaigns to eliminate that also. Even when there were good times the membership still was divided at the wage level. The good times of a divided wage scale? There are no good times....

 

[twuer]

Amfa supporters such as Buck. . . . .

AMFA IS A PERFECT UNION. IT IS NEVER THE FAULT OF AMFA. WE MUST BLAME OTHERS FOR EVERYTHING!!!

You guys sound like a bunch of controlled robots!!!!

 

[Buck]

Amfa supporters such as Buck. . . . .

AMFA IS A PERFECT UNION. IT IS NEVER THE FAULT OF AMFA. WE MUST BLAME OTHERS FOR EVERYTHING!!!

You guys sound like a bunch of controlled robots!!!!

No as I said it is the structure at the constitutional level and the fear based tactics of the TWU all for the sake of the flow of dues to the international for their salaries. IT must be for their salaries, because it is not for ours.

As for the Robots, what do you call the assembly line system of concessions that you support?

 

[Thrustfuljet]

I found the union asked your membership to turn down the contract tendered, yet the floor approved by over 80%,

As I said before the twu has created a bunch of sheep here in Tulsa and when they want the membership to stand up and fight for something they lay down.

 

[Steve Connell]

Do you expect a membership that has experienced twenty years of concessions not to attempt to change the way they do business?

Allow me to touch on this "twenty years " of concessions a bit Buck. The reason of the twenty years and the concessions is twofold. One being the TWU has been an agent longer than AMFA and two, since the economy continues to change and our industry with it contracts will be manipulated by both the Unions and the Company.

AMFA is also changing, and this is not meant as a slam. Look at UAL's retirees for instance, fact, look at AMFA's stance on concessions. In the last year AMFA went fron "NO CONCESSIONS" to "NO UNWARRANTED CONCESSIONS", AMFA is learning.

I do not know of any member that likes concessions, but due to our democratic process of voting, by the membership, at times you receive a contract that is less than desireable or has it's good points with bad.

Do the ex-TWAers know about strikes, you bet. A number of times I have been at the clockout line not knowing if I am going to be at work the next day or on picket. That is called "enpowering your Union", giving them the strike they call for in the negotiation process.

And really, the TWU has not "created a bunch of sheep". They were sheep when they enlisted with AA. Admitting that and then changing that issue is the key.

 

[Decision 2004]

Steve,

Constant and Years of TWU Leadership FEAR MONGERING and Corporate Leaning Communications does create sheep.

You don't have a clue abouth the TWU, you have not even been a member of the most docile union in the industry but for three years. How the hell do you know?

You are debating past shop stewards, past union officers, and members that have been TWU for up to 20 years. I trust them far more than you.

 

[mojo13]

. :down:

 

[Rusty]

. :down:

mojo, are ya still ignoring Decision??? LMAO

 

[Decision 2004]

. :down:

Truth posted again???

Let's start calling this the "truth detector" response.

 

[Steve Connell]

You don't have a clue abouth the TWU, you have not even been a member of the most docile union in the industry but for three years. How the hell do you know?

You are debating past shop stewards, past union officers, and members that have been TWU for up to 20 years. I trust them far more than you.

Dave, I am also a past shop steward, add up all my steward time and it will approach over 10 years, what's your point here? Most docile union or most docile union members in the union Dave. And what is docile? Do you mean the members of your local and mine who voted to retain their employment verses tell the Company no to the concessionary contract? Is this the docile you speak of? If so then I suppose it is then alright to call the AMFA members docile as they negotiated the retirement rework at UAL. They did regress and vote to do so.

Our industry is changing, lay blame where it is due. No union, including AMFA, ask for concessions or a regression of lifestyle.

And really Dave, how the hell do I know what? I know this Dave, AMFA would be members ahead without your two cents as a self proclaimed organizer. Your AMFA is judged by the likes of you, a shame to those that really care about our profession. That's what the hell I know Dave.

 

[Buck]

Allow me to touch on this "twenty years " of concessions a bit Buck. The reason of the twenty years and the concessions is twofold. One being the TWU has been an agent longer than AMFA and two, since the economy continues to change and our industry with it contracts will be manipulated by both the Unions and the Company.

AMFA is also changing, and this is not meant as a slam. Look at UAL's retirees for instance, fact, look at AMFA's stance on concessions. In the last year AMFA went fron "NO CONCESSIONS" to "NO UNWARRANTED CONCESSIONS", AMFA is learning.

I do not know of any member that likes concessions, but due to our democratic process of voting, by the membership, at times you receive a contract that is less than desireable or has it's good points with bad.

Do the ex-TWAers know about strikes, you bet. A number of times I have been at the clockout line not knowing if I am going to be at work the next day or on picket. That is called "enpowering your Union", giving them the strike they call for in the negotiation process.

And really, the TWU has not "created a bunch of sheep". They were sheep when they enlisted with AA. Admitting that and then changing that issue is the key.

Twofold? It does not matter the difference in agency time. It is the performance while the union is representing the membership that counts. The economy has been changing since it's inception. Why should the contract be manipulated by the union? Why not allow the membership the constitutional power to make changes at all levels. There is no excuse to take concessions in a labor contract. The members before all of us have fought for these benefits and you and your kind have no right to ask the rest of us to reduce our livelihood and cut the throat of the members of the future.

Yes, AMFA is changing. AMFA is changing because it is growing. AMFA is changing at the constitutional level and the changes are being made by the mechanic craft and class. It is not someone outside of the airline industry sticking their collective noses into our business.

As for the AMFA retiree issue, I would suggest that educate yourself on this issue from those involved. It is not my place to comment on this issue. I have had conversations with those that it does effect. I believe that those effected are waiting to see the outcome.

As I told you before it is the TWU instilling fear into the membership that has created the issues before us. I would hope that you as a senior unionist can see past the TWU smoke screen that enables those outside the craft and class of the mechanic and related to control our profession and it's future.

Why do you not want to improve your profession?

A number of times I have been in the clock out line knowing that the TWU membership will not strike. This could be a major difference in what you believe you know of the TWU and it's membership. It is not the locals of the TWU who determine whether a strike is to be called, it is the International, again whose members are not even of the airline industry, that determines these issues.

I look forward to your wisdom in educating those of us who have been here as to how real unions work and taking the leadership we need to change from within.

 

[AAmech]

As for the AMFA retiree issue, I would suggest that educate yourself on this issue from those involved. It is not my place to comment on this issue. I have had conversations with those that it does effect. I believe that those effected are waiting to see the outcome.


A number of times I have been in the clock out line knowing that the TWU membership will not strike. This could be a major difference in what you believe you know of the TWU and it's membership. It is not the locals of the TWU who determine whether a strike is to be called, it is the International, again whose members are not even of the airline industry, that determines these issues.

Yeah I wouldn't want to talk about the UAL retiees either if I was an amfa booster! All that talk about NO CONCESSIONS! Its looking very shaky right now at UAL if they will get their Gov backed loan. If they don't, management has said they're going back to the unions for more. We'll get to watch the amfa supporters squirm while Dell and Co give away the Pension plan. But you know they'll come back with their Spin and call it an improvement. After all "Everyone knows a 'self-funded' 401k is superior to a Co. funded pension".

I love your talk about the TWU and their unwillingness to strike. Whatever happened with Amfa and all their strike talk at NWA. When push came to shove at the PEB they folded like a house of cards! All their BIG talk! Yeah right!

 

[RUM@AA]

Yeah I wouldn't want to talk about the UAL retiees either if I was an amfa booster! All that talk about NO CONCESSIONS! Its looking very shaky right now at UAL if they will get their Gov backed loan. If they don't, management has said they're going back to the unions for more. We'll get to watch the amfa supporters squirm while Dell and Co give away the Pension plan. But you know they'll come back with their Spin and call it an improvement. After all "Everyone knows a 'self-funded' 401k is superior to a Co. funded pension".

I love your talk about the TWU and their unwillingness to strike. Whatever happened with Amfa and all their strike talk at NWA. When push came to shove at the PEB they folded like a house of cards! All their BIG talk! Yeah right!

What the hell are you talking about?
AMFA's agreement at UAL for the retirees can be NO WORSE than anything imposed on the other unions by the court. READ THE AGREEMENT. If the others get a better deal than AMFA negotiated, then AMFA gets the same deal as the others. WIN-WIN.
If the court doesn't go after retirees, AMFA's retirees benifits are untouched too.
Even then, if AMFA's agreement does go into effect, UAL's retirees still have a better medical benifit than AA's.

and... yeah, I'd call $35.00/hr a real house of cards.
NOT ONE AMFA MEMBER WORKED ON MEMORIAL DAY FOR STRAIGHT TIME EITHER!
Yeah, they sure do suck. (idiot) :down: