"fooled Again By Ward"

[gdpflyer]

let me see....how do you educate ignorance????
ok...9/11 came along....lets suppose there was NO AA/twa merger....
sooooo AA business is waaaaay down, right?
sooo AA has to cut a lot of jobs, right?
and if they didnt have 4000 twa'ers at the bottom to cut out of jobs,
where do you think those cuts would have come from????
where do you thing the business AA now has came from????
so you think NONE of the business AA now has came from the twa operation?
none of their gates, routes, passengers???
you go ahead and vote for Ward...you deserve him.

 

[twasilverbullet]

I never said anything about AA bidding on US slots. Quit making up stuff to fit your arguement. But I'm sure if it meant the TWA'ers getting recalled quicker they would be all for it.

So, now I'm making stuff up. Truth hurts,uh? As for jw, if he wins the election.... well, you deserve him then and as for TWA'ers being all for it if it meant being recalled quicker you are dead wrong.

 

[MiAAmi]

So, now I'm making stuff up. Truth hurts,uh? As for jw, if he wins the election.... well, you deserve him then and as for TWA'ers being all for it if it meant being recalled quicker you are dead wrong.

Well back up your statements then. Otherwise quit making false statements. I never made a comment about the bidding on US slots and taking jobs away from US employees. And yes genius, if I vote for someone I do deserve them as President of the Union. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I like how you would never want to benefit at the expence of US but you would love to benefit at my expence.

 

[twasilverbullet]

Well back up your statements then. Otherwise quit making false statements. I never made a comment about the bidding on US slots and taking jobs away from US employees. And yes genius, if I vote for someone I do deserve them as President of the Union. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I like how you would never want to benefit at the expence of US but you would love to benefit at my expence.

Did I say MiAAmi made those statments? No.
Are they false statements? No.
Do you deserve jw? Yes.
Would I love to benefit at your expence? No.
Am I a genius? Yes.
Did I point the obvious? Yes.

 

[skyangelnflight]

let me see....how do you educate ignorance????
ok...9/11 came along....lets suppose there was NO AA/twa merger....
sooooo AA business is waaaaay down, right?
sooo AA has to cut a lot of jobs, right?
and if they didnt have 4000 twa'ers at the bottom to cut out of jobs,
where do you think those cuts would have come from????
where do you thing the business AA now has came from????
so you think NONE of the business AA now has came from the twa operation?
none of their gates, routes, passengers???
you go ahead and vote for Ward...you deserve him.

Is it possible If there were no TWA aquistion by AA and after 9/11 AA had to cut back there would still be the same number of AA'ers on furlough. . .

Instead of claiming TWA'ers were a cushion, do the math. Less people, less cutback needed.

Math is not my strong suit, but it seems if AA is able to manage at the number
of working employees at the moment, that number would have been the same with or without TWA.

 

[skyangelnflight]

A debate is a rational exchange of ideas between adults. It is not name calling, and insult.

As far as your own bitterness is concerned, I have read dozens of your vitriolic anti TWAers posts on the 4M.

I have not posted on the 4m for quite a while. I was attending college and dropped out of 4m and this board. The classes were too demanding for me to able to be part of either board.

And contrary to your accusations, I have never been caustic or hostile in my posts. I have maintained my position.

Also unless you are an American Airlines flight attendant you can not be a member of the 4m, so how could you research any posts on that forum? Are you an American Airlines flight attendant?

You are not so important as to merit my spending hours researching the 4M for your posting history in order to prove a long and ongoing pattern of your paranoia and bitterness

The one thing I enjoyed about this board at the beginning was the respectful attitude of most of the members. Everyone should be able to express their view without attacking someone else to make a point.

The Japanese had an interesting thing they did, two people would face each other and exchange ideas and opinions, the loser was the one that lost his temper and hit the other person.

This is a very emotional topic, many are out on furlough, our contract has been savaged, working conditions are the pits, and it is not just here, it is across corporate America.

No one wants to lose their job, and that includes me. You call me caustic and paranoid, you want to paint me with a broad brush because of my stand on the issue.

what does this post say about you:

...does it even cross your mind that it is "just a bit" easier for a 22yr old 1 year AA furloughed f/a already at the bottom of the pay scale to find a new job flying than someone who has been flying for 30yrs and is a bit older..it just bogles my mind that anyone would consider this in any way remotely just.

and

You are not so important

haven't you just discounted AA F/A's?

I know your not happy with the situation, you know I don't want to lose any senority, but all of us should be able to bring this debate up to higher level.

 

[jsn25911]

Skyangel wrote:

Also unless you are an American Airlines flight attendant you can not be a member of the 4m, so how could you research any posts on that forum? Are you an American Airlines flight attendant?


We are ALL AA f/a's - remember "TWO GREAT AIRLINES...ONE GREAT FUTURE"

 

[L1011Ret]

The prerequisite to joining 4m is to be an AA F/A? If that is the requirement and TWA F/As are dues paying members of APFA and employees of AA, then what rule precludes them from joining? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Royal Ambassador]

I have not posted on the 4m for quite a while.

Plenty of your posts have appeared there in the week or so leading up to the vote count.

Math is not my strong suit...

Perhaps you should pay more attention in your college classes. 6,000 of 28,000 is roughly 21%. Without the furlough cushion that you enjoyed, AA would have furloughed approximately 4,800 of the 24,000 nAAtive population, give or take a few hundred.

 

[LiveInAHotel]

"TWO GREAT AIRLINES...ONE GREAT FUTURE"

The AA nAAtives didn't come up with that slogan. It was slogan from the AMR corporate crooks. We didn't want the acquisition to happen. AMR should have just let TWA become a memory when they filed Chapter 7 and closed their doors for good. Then AA could have just bid on slots and routes.

 

[L1011Ret]

The only thing wrong with that argument is that at the time AA specifically said they wanted TWA for the express purposes of another hub to relieve ORD and DFW. It worked till 9/11 came along and the economy tanked. Now they are having troubles with delays at ORD again. To be expected in the economic recovery.

 

[Royal Ambassador]

Posted by Ward's arch supporter on the 4M:

I don't want 'conciliation' between us and
the TWA people. I want my seniority protected
in an absolute fashion until the 5 year recall
period has expired.

Then if the TWA people would like to continue
to fly with American, they can re-apply
and start at the bottom of the bidding roster
just like I did and just like those who left
Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, and a host of other
airlines to start over here at American.

It makes me feel warm and fuzzy all over.

 

[skyangelnflight]

Royal Ambassador,Feb 1 2004, 03:27 PM

The TWA people were furloughed when TWA went broke.

You said:

Perhaps you should pay more attention in your college classes. 6,000 of 28,000 is roughly 21%. Without the furlough cushion that you enjoyed, AA would have furloughed approximately 4,800 of the 24,000 nAAtive population, give or take a few hundred.

You can not make that leap. . .for the following reasons

The extra financial burden and debt brought to AA from the acquisition of TWA probably forced the company to lay off a higher percentage than would have been required if they had not taken on TWA. Without the extra debt, they probably would not have had to lay off 21%. American took on an additional $3.5 billion in debt with TWA, paid $92M in aircraft lease fees and $742M for TWA assets.

AMR retires thirteen leased TWA aircraft but still pays those leases through 2014 to the tune of $159 million.

All this at a time when the air industry was turning down. . . ."overcapacity that has left the industry with billions of dollars in losses over the last couple of years", analysts said. Then add 9/11 in the mix.

Morgan Stanley shows that airline revenue per mile per seat (passenger yield) has fallen 4.5% annually since deregulation in 1978. Morgan Stanley shows that airline pricing has been falling for 40 years. . . .

No one knows what went on in the corporate offices, why these decisions were made. But to claim TWA has been a cushion for AA'ers is beyond speculation and borders on urban legend. Once you look at the facts, you see AA was a cushion for TWA F/A's, even if it was only for a couple of years.

When Collectively, the U.S. airlines lost $8.3 billion in 2001 and $11.3 billion in 2002, according to figures compiled by the Air Transport Association, to think that somehow TWA would have survived is just not facing reality. When there was only 20 million on hand, having to charge low cost fares just to keep cash coming in, the figures just don't add up.

According to industry experts: "it was highly likely that TWA would have been liquidated. . . "

And your own CEO WILLIAM F. COMPTON said:

. . "But, TWA’s financial predicament continues and we can no longer afford to operate,
. . remains essentially a single hub operation, putting us at a schedule disadvantage to multiple hubcarriers.

Finally, this winter we ran out of time. In fact, by January 10, 2001, TWA had cash on hand of only $20 million and needed significantly more just to make it through the next day."

TWA did not fare well after the airline industry was deregulated in 1978. It has been clear for some time that TWA was unlikely to pull itself out of lean times.

TWA's costs are unusually high, he said, because the airline has no credit. Thus, TWA cannot hedge on fuel prices and its aircraft lease fees to Boeing Corp. are steep.

in recent years TWA has been paying "at least $100 million" a year extra in aircraft leases because its credit rating was so poor. And last year, during the enormous run-up in jet fuel prices, the airline did not have enough money to hedge its fuel costs, sources said.

TWA's lease contract with Boeing for nine 767s is about $600,000 a month for 18 years, while American's average lease cost for 767s is $450,000 a month, sources said. The 27 TWA 757s are leased for $480,000 to $540,000 a month, while the similar lease cost is $300,000 a month. TWA's MD-80 lease costs are about $330,000 a month, compared with American's $200,000 a month fee.

TWA was an airline with low yielding routes and a 15% revenue gap relative to the industry average.

Your CEO approached at least seven other airlines looking for a way to survive, American was the only one to pay the bills, being acquired by AA was a reprieve.

Especially for the retirees: "American also assumes certain debt and financial responsibilities, such as covering TWA's retired employees."

Like I said, math is not my strong suit, but I understand enough to see how these figures run.

to answer your comment:

Plenty of your posts have appeared there in the week or so leading up to the vote count.

I do not need to justify or explain my posts on another board to you, but for the sake of the many people that read THIS board, I am replying. . .
I posted there what I post here, I do not want slotting, I do not want to lose one number of my senority, no how, no way. That is not a bitter nor caustic statement. It may be one you do not like, but it is not bitter nor caustic.

You did not answer my question. Are you an AA flight attendant?

 

[skyangelnflight]

I need to add that the $3.5 billion debt was adjusted in the final deal to $2.8 BILLION, and add on annual cost of labor $260 MILLION.

I find it interesting that the cut AA wanted from the employees was
$2 billion. . .

 

[MiAAmi]

Well said!