First Class Flying: A Solution

[Bear96]

Well then I have to ask, what have you been waiting for? Hearing the FFers carp and whinge here over the past couple of years, it sounds like things long ago became unbearable. (I won't itemize the list; I'm sure you're aware of the problems.) Those who were really serious when they said they were gonna leave if U does X or if U gets any worse have left long ago. Those that remain are all bluster.

If you're still here, you are either hopelessly hooked on miles and what few remaning perks they bring, and/or on non-stops from PHL. Further degradations in services and amenities won't change that. And U knows it.

 

[TomBascom]

How are they good for business if, as Piney pointed out in another thread, a round trip transcon coach ticket can be had for $450? How is upgrading someone who paid $450 or less better than limiting the upgrades until 2 hours before the flight and offering first class transcon tickets for something like $750?

[post="258560"][/post]​

Dig the wax out of your ears KC.

There are always F tickets for sale right up to departure. $750 would be a bargin though -- which is why they also hardly ever sell one.

You're assuming that everyone who upgrades did so on a cheapo fare. That is also patently untrue.

 

[Bear96]

Bob,

As to 1 and 3, right, that is what I said: you are addicted to miles and status (which is what #3, taking care of you during irregular ops, is -- priority handling during irops is a benefit enjoyed when you achieve status on any airline). So they can continue to pull off FC amenities and provide you with a filthy airplane, but as long as you get the perks of your mileage status, you're coming back. Which makes it seem ridiclous to me for you to be bemoaning the state of FC service. YOU'RE GONNA FLY THEM ANYWAY, NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO, BECAUSE YOU'RE HOOKED ON THEIR STATUS PROGRAM. That is my point.

As to 2, the legacy carriers are all in trouble to one degree or another, true. But only one is literally within weeks of shutting its doors, and has apparently stripped away all perks to the bare minimum. There are other legacy carriers to choose from that, although they may be in trouble, still (for example) have clubs in SFO and LAX, and offer hot meals in their FC cabins.

In short, there are still plenty of choices available to you. But, as you've made clear, you aren't going anywhere. So why bother complaining about U?

 

[TomBascom]

That 1.7x number is being taken out of context. It's the number of coach seats that 1 F seat displaces. Thus in these 80% LF examples you might more accurately say that the incremental revenue needed is 80% of 1.7x -- which is 1.36x which brings your break-even yield to 19.55 cents.

In the specific case of PB you might also want to adjust for stage length since he's talking about trans-cons.

[post="258507"][/post]​

Rethinking a bit... If an A320 could hold 144 passengers in an all coach configuration and 130 in the current config (120 coach plus 16F, take out F and get a net gain of 14 seats -- adjust these numbers as needed if I'm off by a bit...) then the F seats don't displace coach seats until load factors routinely exceed 85%.

Operationally load factors that high are just begging for trouble. One little glitch at the peak time and it will take days to recover because you only have 15% spare capacity to work with.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You're right, Tom. The biggest impact of having a FC is on CASM - each airplane would produce a lot more ASM's per day (week, year) without it thus lowering CASM.

On a related note and by way of illustration, AMR is looking at removing some galley space to put more seats in. They're talking about getting 12,000 more available seats per day out of it. Multiply those by the number of miles they travel per day and the ASM's add up pretty fast, with a resulting drop in CASM.

Jim

 

[Singleflyer]

How are they good for business if, as Piney pointed out in another thread, a round trip transcon coach ticket can be had for $450? How is upgrading someone who paid $450 or less better than limiting the upgrades until 2 hours before the flight and offering first class transcon tickets for something like $750?


My tickets are usually prurchased within minutes of flight time. My las transcon on US was just shy of $700.00 one way. If they did not have a first class seat, my business would have gone to another airline. Even though I fly US the most, it no longer is my favorite airline. I pick ailines that go to the places I need to go with the largest equipment. My first trip of the week is MHT to AUS, and I choose CO because it had the biggest equipment and the latest departure on SUnday, and I got upgraded because of my status with NW. UA had a flight through ORD about the same time, but ORD to AUS was on an RJ. Too long in my book. SO a non *A airline got my business.

The abilitity to upgrade made my decision. Therefore having first class is good for business.

 

[TomBascom]

You're right, Tom. The biggest impact of having a FC is on CASM - each airplane would produce a lot more ASM's per day (week, year) without it thus lowering CASM.

"Most obvious" effect perhaps. But, personally, I think the impact on RASM is higher albeit much harder to quantify -- no F, no revenue from the likes of l4pi etc.

On a related note and by way of illustration, AMR is looking at removing some galley space to put more seats in. They're talking about getting 12,000 more available seats per day out of it. Multiply those by the number of miles they travel per day and the ASM's add up pretty fast, with a resulting drop in CASM.

Jim

[post="258573"][/post]​

I hadn't thought to bring that up in a post but I have occasionally wondered why they don't do that. Between unused galleys and coat closets that are strictly off limits and routinely empty there do seem to be some possibilities for more seats...

Of course they could also get a few more seats by selling space in the lavs

And some of us would pay a lot extra to fly in the jumpseat once in a while B)

 

[Singleflyer]

Tom

I one had row 14 in a 12 row RJ I thought the airline did sell me the seat in the Lav. They just substuted a 40 paz RJ from the 50.

prior to 9/11 I was able to fly jumpseat in an AC Dash-8 after take-off until before landing. I was the only PAx aboard. You are right it would be worth the extra $$.

 

[BoeingBoy]

"Most obvious" effect perhaps. But, personally, I think the impact on RASM is higher albeit much harder to quantify -- no F, no revenue from the likes of l4pi etc.

[post="258579"][/post]​

Oops, my mistake - I was thinking only about the cost side of the equation. And your point is the primary reason I don't personally advocate eliminating FC - unless US wants to truly be a LCC.

Of course they could also get a few more seats by selling space in the lavs

[post="258579"][/post]​

I used to be able to say that the lavs were reserved for commuting crew members when the flight was full, but times have sure changed.

And some of us would pay a lot extra to fly in the jumpseat once in a while B)

[post="258579"][/post]​

Oh, it only we could. Third best seat in the house with a great view.

Jim

 

[longing4piedmont]

Oh, it only we could. Third best seat in the house with a great view.

Jim

[post="258582"][/post]​

And I would do it in a heart beat. On many a night, on the last CLT to HKY flight, the crew would give me a head set and a seat in row 1 with the curtain open and let me listen and watch from push back to landing. Of course it was a buzz bucket, but fun none the less.

 

[KCFlyer]

Dig the wax out of your ears KC.

There are always F tickets for sale right up to departure. $750 would be a bargin though -- which is why they also hardly ever sell one.

You're assuming that everyone who upgrades did so on a cheapo fare. That is also patently untrue.

[post="258569"][/post]​

No Tom, I'm not assuming everyone if F upgraded from a cheapo fare, but I am saying a large number of them are. And if those seats are available right up to departure, the "non-preferred" passenger who ended up paying $600 for his transcon roundtrip coach ticket might just feel that $150 sounds pretty good to him for a 5 hour flight, so he might just pony up the money to pay for it. And I AM saying that this is better for business than upgrading a super titanium elite 2 weeks in advance who is travelling on a $450 ticket (Bob's example of a UA transcon fare).

 

[KCFlyer]

KC

Nice new avitar. But as usual, you don't have a clue. Look closely at the label. It kills small roaches.

[post="258561"][/post]​

Thanks, but you might need to look even a little closer - underneath the little roach motel it says "kills large roaches". That's why I selected it.

 

[longing4piedmont]

Thanks, but you might need to look even a little closer - underneath the little roach motel it says "kills large roaches". That's why I selected it.

[post="258622"][/post]​

Here let me help you out. Your making this way to easy. Are you sure your name is not Chip?

Since you can't read either, try this one. http://www.killsbugsdead.com/fop_dc_lrb.asp

 

[KCFlyer]

My tickets are usually prurchased within minutes of flight time. My las transcon on US was just shy of $700.00 one way. If they did not have a first class seat, my business would have gone to another airline.

[post="258574"][/post]​

Which is different than someone who paid $250 for a one way ticket expecting a seat in first class. You pay $700 one way, then they are making good money on you. Enjoy your seat. US is charging fire sale prices for damn near everybody....that's why a 91% load factor won't make a profit. But let me rephrase - let's say that you find out an hour before flight time that you gotta go transcon. You get to the airport and buy your ticket that is $1,400. You ask about the availablity to upgrade, but discover that because Bob was super titanium, they upgraded him and his $450 ticket a week ago. And they updated l4p's similar ticket a week ago, and they upgraded Art and Bob's tickets a week ago. So there's no room at the inn in first class...you're stuck in coach, even though you paid a thousand dollars more.

NOw...let's say that they didn't allow upgrades for anybody until two hours prior. And what seats weren't sold in advance went to those who paid the most for their coach ticket - regardless of whether they are platinum, or aren't even a member of the FF program. You'd have your F class seat. The 'freequent freeloaders" who exercise their upgrade "rights" a week in advance will need to make sure that they are not travelling on a loss leader ticket if they expect to see the F class cabin again. I know that sounds like a sacrilege to the VFF who has grown accustomed to the current program, but if you think about it, you are rewarding those who bring you the most revenue for that flight. As far as the "overall revenue argument" goes, then those times that your "overall revenues" result in a higher priced ticket, you get priority.

 

[TomBascom]

A large number of F passengers are upgrades. But more than you might think paid pretty good money to get there. Getting upgraded on a cheap fare is an art form of sorts. When it happens the airline is not losing out on the chance to have upgraded a more deserving customer -- they have mechanisms in place that prevent that. The art lies in knowing when and where the excess inventory is.

You cannot be upgraded two weeks in advance unless you pay full fare.

If you pay full fare you can upgrade immediately so long as there is inventory. And there is almost always inventory for such upgrades (peak periods on certain routes are a notable exception -- but that isn't because freeloaders are beating the system; it's because lots of people are paying good money.)

Cheap fares can only be upgraded in advance (up to 7 days for CP, 5, for GP, 3 for SP) if there is a lot of excess inventory -- and only a portion of that inventory is released. The remainder is held for sale. That's why we have "the gate dance". They release those seats because they know, with a great deal of confidence, that they are not going to be sold.

Yes, people would buy it if it were reasonably priced. Which we keep saying. But they don't price it reasonably -- they price it stratospherically and then act offended that nobody thinks that it is worth what they ask.

On those rare occasions when they "experiment" with these things they usually set up "experiments" which appear to be designed to prove the preconceived notion that it cannot work. The chief tools used to make sure the right answer is found are 1) making the fares impossible to find and buy and 2) offering them in markets that they remove all the (F) inventory from (convert to RJs, fly 757s with 8 F seats and such...)