Firearm discharges on US Airways flight

[oldiebutgoody]

DAO operates just like a wheel gun oldie.......as the trigger is being pulled the

empty chamber is being filled and goes off just like a revolver then becomes an automatic.

As the gun is drawn from the holster,trained on target and the trigger is pulled...

its showtime and everyone was in the presence of a safely carried firearm to that instant.

WRONG. Not for a semi auto like the FFDOs carry. You obviously have never fired one or understand how they operate. There ARE DAO revolvers which work that way, but semi autos can't, since the slide must be retracted and advanced to chamber a round, which you can only do with your other hand or by recoil. DAO just means that the hammer is always down and must be fired by a long trigger pull. The hammer cannot be manually cocked. It has nothing to do with where or how the cartridge is loaded

 

[EastUS]

WRONG. Not for a semi auto like the FFDOs carry. You obviously have never fired one or understand how they operate. There ARE DAO revolvers which work that way, but semi autos can't, since the slide must be retracted and advanced to chamber a round, which you can only do with your other hand or by recoil. DAO just means that the hammer is always down and must be fired by a long trigger pull. The hammer cannot be manually cocked. It has nothing to do with where or how the cartridge is loaded

There's NO way by which any happy face can be placed on an inflight accidental weapons discharge and I'm not "defending" this occurrence in any way. Having said that, I find the following to be of great interest:

"The holster system is designed with a lock that goes behind the trigger, preventing the gun from firing. But some pilots say that when the gun isn't snapped tightly into the holster, or becomes loose during transfers, the lock can end up in front of the trigger."

I considered enrolling in the FFDO program. Once I learned the details regarding the actual carrying and virtually incessant locking up/unlocking BS..I quickly lost ALL interest. See listings under "You gotta' be kiddin' me...that's waaay past just plain STUPID!"/etc. I've seen people from the Forrestry Service armed aboard flights..even individuals from the IRS..and none of those were/are required to peform the insane lockup/unlock/lockup/etc rituals required of pilots. Where's the "logic" in that? Is there some reasonable fear of a rabid terrorist deer boarding at the last minute?....or perhaps some disgruntled taxpayer reacting poorly to an inflight audit?

Now..we all know that no guv-mint program can ever be found to have it's little faults, and that the unfortunate gentleman will almost certainly be assigned the fullest blame.....but; anyone care to place a bet on the final outcome of the investigation as per the details?..."the lock can end up in front of the trigger."? Let's pause for a moment to reflect upon Murphy's Laws.....and briefly consider how utterly idiotic it is to have ANY such BS equipment as part and parcel of any protocal by which to handle deadly weapons = ..."the lock can end up in front of the trigger."??? I'm certainly no firearms expert myself (although, according to the guv-mint I'm an "Expert" with the .38, 9mm and now antique M16...Harrumph!) and I'll cheerfully leave the floor open to all those who love to collect gun magazines and thump their chests in conversation. I'd love for any to offer up any explanation as to why it's "smart" to require the need for continual handling of any loaded weapon, and why it's "smart" for the pilots to have to perform this insane lockup/unlock ritual so frequently, and mostly: What complete and utterly hopeless idiots came up with a locking device that's previously proven itself as a cause of accidental discharges?..worse yet: Why TF is such a device still in mandatory useage?

"the lock can end up in front of the trigger."???? Words simply fail me. That kind of thing takes a govern-Mental level of brilliance.

 

[ableoneable]

DAO operates just like a wheel gun oldie.......as the trigger is being pulled the

empty chamber is being filled and goes off just like a revolver then becomes an automatic.

As the gun is drawn from the holster,trained on target and the trigger is pulled...

its showtime and everyone was in the presence of a safely carried firearm to that instant.

I am not a gun guy but you seem to know less about pistols than anyone - ever.

If there is no round and the chamber, pulling the trigger will only result in one thing, a clicking noise.

Pulling the trigger will not activate the slide on any pistol.

You seem to know even less than the yahoo who wrote the article, and that is quite an achievement.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Now..we all know that no guv-mint program can ever be found to have it's little faults, and that the unfortunate gentleman will almost certainly be assigned the fullest blame.....but; anyone care to place a bet on the final outcome of the investigation as per the details?..."the lock can end up in front of the trigger."? Let's pause for a moment to reflect upon Murphy's Laws.....and briefly consider how utterly idiotic it is to have ANY such BS equipment as part and parcel of any protocal by which to handle deadly weapons = ..."the lock can end up in front of the trigger."??? I'm certainly no firearms expert myself (although, according to the guv-mint I'm an "Expert" with the .38, 9mm and now antique M16...Harrumph!) and I'll cheerfully leave the floor open to all those who love to collect gun magazines and thump their chests in conversation. I'd love for any to offer up any explanation as to why it's "smart" to require the need for continual handling of any loaded weapon, and why it's "smart" for the pilots to have to perform this insane lockup/unlock ritual so frequently, and mostly: What complete and utterly hopeless idiots came up with a locking device that's previously proven itself as a cause of accidental discharges?..worse yet: Why TF is such a device still in mandatory useage?

"the lock can end up in front of the trigger."???? Words simply fail me. That kind of thing takes a govern-Mental level of brilliance.

I concur with your entire post. Seems most accidents happen while holstering/unholstering or locking/unlocking the weapon. Emphasis should be on reducing the need to do this. having flown with FFDOs, we've all seen how often they have to secure/unsecure the weapon during the course of an ordinary flight. It's a set up. In order to placate the folks that feel that "all guns are unsafe" and that "no one should have a gun" they have made the system as unsafe as they possibly could have. The FFDO, being a trained and sworn LEO, should be able to put the gun in the holster before leaving home and remove it at the end of the day, either at home or on the overnight. The firearm would NEVER even need to be removed from the holster except to be unloaded and cleaned periodically. That would reduce accidents greatly.

 

[delldude]

I am not a gun guy but you seem to know less about pistols than anyone - ever.

If there is no round and the chamber, pulling the trigger will only result in one thing, a clicking noise.

Pulling the trigger will not activate the slide on any pistol.

You seem to know even less than the yahoo who wrote the article, and that is quite an achievement.

I was thinking about buying one from this pilot I know.......

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I was thinking about buying one from this pilot I know.......

Then, go sign up for an NRA shooting safety program. Also, learn how to shoot at a local indoor range. You'll enjoy it.

 

[EastUS]

The FFDO, being a trained and sworn LEO, should be able to put the gun in the holster before leaving home and remove it at the end of the day, either at home or on the overnight. The firearm would NEVER even need to be removed from the holster except to be unloaded and cleaned periodically. That would reduce accidents greatly.

Indeed sir. ANY other protocol provides nothing more than a recipe for misshaps, and is entirely counter-productive to the intended goal of enhancing safety. The gentleman involved with this unfortunate incident obviously received training through both the military and the FFDO program, and was/is no fool...and yet...this happened. My first thought in such a case isn't "What a dummie" but rather; "There, but for fortune go I/any/all". The only bright spot I can see in this sad event is the slight possibility for some more rational restructuring of the program. I fully agree with your observation = ""In order to placate the folks that feel that "all guns are unsafe" and that "no one should have a gun" they have made the system as unsafe as they possibly could have."

 

[freedom]

They need to remove those guns from all us airways pilots like yesterday , I don’t trust the pilots mental stability .

 

[wopr21]

They need to remove those guns from all us airways pilots like yesterday , I don’t trust the pilots mental stability .

Then you better not get on an airplane

 

[freedom]

Believe me , I try not to think about the kind of mental stress and instability that could be in the cockpit when I fly . A pilot civil war is Raging between east and west and we’re letting these guys carry guns around ? Total recipe for disaster …

 

[delldude]

Believe me , I try not to think about the kind of mental stress and instability that could be in the cockpit when I fly . A pilot civil war is Raging between east and west and we’re letting these guys carry guns around ? Total recipe for disaster …

Don't you worry none there sonny boy unless you hear over the Pax interfone...ALLAH AKHBAR.

 

[ClueByFour]

The FFDO, being a trained and sworn LEO, should be able to put the gun in the holster before leaving home and remove it at the end of the day, either at home or on the overnight. The firearm would NEVER even need to be removed from the holster except to be unloaded and cleaned periodically. That would reduce accidents greatly.

Umm, a week at FLETC does not constitute "trained" to handle or brandish the firearm anywhere except the very specific environment (cockpit) that the training was for. And we all know that a good chunk of that is classroom and/or rolling around on the mat.

A FAM, by comparison, spends 7.5 weeks at FLETC and then another 7.5 weeks in AC at their academy. Minimally.

As an aside, every other form of sworn LEO alive has a defined jurisdiction. Tell me--what's the FFDO's jurisdiction? And the answer, my friends, can be found in 49 USC 44921, which indicates, among other things:

• that the "jurisdiction" is the flight deck, and only the fight deck
• That the gun won't leave the flight deck unsecured

There are no arrest powers or renumeration, or anything else that's common to "real" LEOs.

Further, according to The TSA:

# FFDOs are considered Federal law enforcement officers only for the limited purposes of carrying firearms and using force, including lethal force, to defend the flight deck of an aircraft from air piracy or criminal violence.

# FFDOs are not granted or authorized to exercise other law enforcement powers such as the power to make arrests, or seek or execute warrants for arrest, or seizure of evidence, or to otherwise act as Federal law enforcement outside the jurisdiction of aircraft flight decks.

# FFDOs are issued credentials and badges to appropriately identify themselves to law enforcement and security personnel, as required in the furtherance of their mission.

There is no good reason to allow a pilot with a week's training to carry a concealed weapon in any places that his state of residence would otherwise allow. Zero. Certainly not on 40 hours training. And fortunately, the law won't allow it.

Someone, (EastUS, I believe) took a look at the program and decided it was not for him. A decision, that had the pilot who put one thru the bulkhead taken, would have avoided this whole thing entirely. There is a procedure that involves placing a firearm into a locking holster (which, for what it's worth, I think is kind of dumb) without discharging the firearm. It's presumably taught to the FFDOs. If the FFDO in question was following that procedure, he presumably would not have discharged the firearm. Ifyou can't follow the procedure without a negligent discharge, or feel uncomfortable with it, leave the freaking program.

That's before we get into the question of why he did not do it either before the cockpit went sterile and why not wait until on the ground and safely at the gate? That alone makes a reasonable person question the judgment used here.

 

[freedom]

These are some random words from the pilot thread …..


WAR

Miserable, vile, despicable, dishonorable ,warfare ,anger, destroy, quest, defense ,win, ARMY , triggers, casualty reports , soldiers ,demanding , protect , killing you , Warlike .

I stopped looking for violent or aggressive words after the first web page . The very men who employ this type of expression online and have such vile hate for one another sometimes ride together in the same flight deck (jump seats ) and they are ARMED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These are the same people who have been known to have fistfights with one another in the employee parking lots and flip each other off from the cockpits as they pass each other …. (EDIT) also , is it me , or has anyone else noticed their new gang insignia everywhere ? I mean hell their like 90’s thugs straight out of the hood with their yellow lanyards , or their usapa lanyards , and of course they have to represent on their tote bags … seriously this is getting way out of hand .


While David burke was a TERMINATED employee of us airways ( DAVID BURKE ), I sometimes feel that same stench of despair and hopelessness coming from the pilot threads . While things are looking up for NOW , the way the political developments within the pilot group goes , things could one day tip those guys to despair, add to that another event like a divorce , cheating wife , death in the family , ecomnic ruin etc and you have a recipe for disaster .
Those of you who read aviation know I’m not making this up , the pilots hate one another , their dangerous and you and I and everyone here at us airways knows this , but the public doesn’t .

 

[N965VJ]

The only people that should be allowed to carry firearms are trained government agents.

Like this DEA agent that makes the following statement

I'm the only one in this room professional enough, that I know of, to carry a Glock 40…

And then, literally, shoots himself in the foot during a public presentation on gun safety.

VIDEO LINK

 

[Harry Callahan]

I was not going to enter this but must say something. I'm 101% for the FFDO program. However not long ago I was told this story by an leo buddy of mine about this FFDO (not a US employee) who was running late for his flight & was stopped for speeding. He told the leo "he was on the job" & showed in his FFDO badge & told him he was a federal leo. Well this guy missed his flight & took a trip to jail .