Fences...So how do we do it?

[AWA320]

I know you did not ask me but I will answer;

AWA320

"Where is an 18yr pilot on your list today? That would be a 1989 hire."

Nostradamus answer.

On the list today provided by an arbitrator, The 18 yr pilot is below one of your recent new hires.

Seriously Nos, I didn't mean to leave you out however you did not answer the question I asked!! I asked where the 18yr pilot is on YOUR list (AAA) today not a combined after the fact list?? Is he/she senior or JR on the AAA list today, yesterday, last year the last five years???

Thanks Nos and again my apologizes.

 

[exB717Flyer]

767jet - If your opinions of "that is where you belong" continue to be the norm around the west employees then you could very easily not have a job, USAirways could burn to the ground very easily.

So the gist of your argument is the West should give in to the East's extortion? Is this something you're proud of?

If I were you I would negotiate, b/c your fate is in the easties hands, you just havent figured that out yet.

Ah, such friendly advice. So lemme see if I've got it all straight: The Easties agreed to binding arbitration, don't like the result, and now insist that the Westies give up something to prevent the Easties from burning the place down. It sounds funny because it is funny. You want negotiations? Accept the Nicolau Award then come to us with an offer and we'll see what happens.

 

[767jetz]

Right where he belongs. Your last quote. It should read,

"In my opinion, right where he belongs."

No, actually what I said was accurate as written. Some things, such as this, are black and white, right or wrong, however you want to word it.

But perhaps Bear96 stated it in a more relevant manner:

... it is most accurate and relevant to say, "According to the ALPA merger policy, right where he belongs."

Either way it has nothing to do with opinion, as you will eventually learn and come to accept.

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

So the gist of your argument is the West should give in to the East's extortion? Is this something you're proud of?Ah, such friendly advice. So lemme see if I've got it all straight: The Easties agreed to binding arbitration, don't like the result, and now insist that the Westies give up something to prevent the Easties from burning the place down. It sounds funny because it is funny. You want negotiations? Accept the Nicolau Award then come to us with an offer and we'll see what happens.

Think of it as you wish exb717 - Yes binding arbitration was agreed to (following the C&B of alpa merger policy) which was not followed. Now they want to come to reason to try and use the award and you shun them? Think aobut if the tides were turned and you were not treated fairly by the rulebook.... You WOULD want resolution to the situation at hand. It isnt about liking the result - its about motives and how the result came about, and the rules not being followed.. I dont think you understand that you are not the one with the ball in your court like you think, Just please remember - you will also need the help of your east counterparts throughout your career (If the airline makes it) and this is not the way to gain there help... If you don't understand simple logics you are going to shoot yourself in the foot -

 

[exB717Flyer]

Think of it as you wish exb717

Interesting that you don't even try to defend a position of extortion. That only hardens our resolve, you know.

Yes binding arbitration was agreed to (following the C&B of alpa merger policy) which was not followed.

You don't like the Award so you say ALPA Merger Policy wasn't followed. Hardly an original argument. The burden of proof is on YOU to show that the Policy wasn't followed. Merely disagreeing with Nicolau's well-explained logic doesn't constitute proof. In Nicolau you have a man with decades of experience and in whom you had complete trust up until the point when you disagreed with him. Do you really think you have a valid argument? Or do you just believe you have enough leverage that you don't think you need a valid argument?

Now they want to come to reason to try and use the award and you shun them?

Why on Earth should we agree to discard ALPA Merger Policy to accomodate you?

Think aobut if the tides were turned and you were not treated fairly by the rulebook.... You WOULD want resolution to the situation at hand.

Do you know who you're talking to? I'm ex-TWA. I can guarantee you had we been allowed to have binding arbitration with AA I would've accepted the result come what may. There's always a few hotheads who will vent whatever comes to mind but I'm not one of them.

It isnt about liking the result - its about motives and how the result came about, and the rules not being followed..

No, it's about the result. Have at least the dignity to admit it.

I dont think you understand that you are not the one with the ball in your court like you think,

On this you may be right -- having the law and policy on our side may not be enough. But I'll take it regardless. Hey, if you're willing to burn down the company out of spite then I'm willing to watch you do it out of principle.

Just please remember - you will also need the help of your east counterparts throughout your career (If the airline makes it) and this is not the way to gain there help... If you don't understand simple logics you are going to shoot yourself in the foot -

More threats and extortion. You must be so proud...

 

[USA320Pilot]

Clue,

Clue asked: "Why did the East group not suggest that (fences, shared growth, and scope protections) in negotiations before arbitration?"

USA320Pilot answers: That is a question I cannot answer because I was not part of the proceedings and only 3 US Airways pilots had an input -- Merger Committee members Kevin Berry, Phil Carey, and Bob Kirsch. Per the Constitution and By-Laws the Merger Committee is antonymous from the MEC, although let's be realistic the MEC did provide input.

Clue asked: "And why (absent the "threat" of living under LOA 93 until you all retire) should the West group go for it now? What's the upside versus the status quo?"

USA320Pilot answers: First, I believe nobody wins if the East pilots exercise their legal rights and do not agree to a new joint contract to prevent the Nicolau Award from being implemented and continue with the ALPA decertification efforts.

The upside to the West pilots to agree to fences for a negotiated period of time with shared growth and shared scope is that the America West pilots would get an across-the-board pay raise, an improved contract, higher DC Plan contributions, access to new widebody and EMB-190 flying that would help prevent stagnation, a higher possibility that the A340 would be added to the fleet, the Nicolau Award would proceed after the fence expires, preventing ALPA from being "kicked off" of the East property/potential resultant problems for the West pilots, and then the pilots working together to build versus tear down a company. In addition, the America West pilots could guarantee that the Nicolau Award would proceed and the EC did not “throw outâ€￾ the award and a new negotiation, mediation, and arbitration occurred.

From a collateral perspective this would be good for US Airways' customers who would see better service, happier employees, and it would improve US Airways' earnings and increase employee profit sharing checks.

I believe if the parties do not find a compromise to the Nicolau Award dispute the US Airways pilots will have no option but to live under LOA 93 and continue the process of decertifying ALPA, which is gaining momentum from the grass roots effort now underway. Furthermore, without some sort of a consensual agreement I believe the poisoned East and West relationship will become even more toxic. Will it kill the company? Probably not, but if this problem continues to simmer and there is another industry "shock event" then all bets are off.

Finally, I understand Doug Parker has recently reached out to each MEC to see if he can mediate a solution to this significant problem.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[nostradamus]

Seriously Nos, I didn't mean to leave you out however you did not answer the question I asked!! I asked where the 18yr pilot is on YOUR list (AAA) today not a combined after the fact list?? Is he/she senior or JR on the AAA list today, yesterday, last year the last five years???

Thanks Nos and again my apologizes.

You are being way too polite today, who are you and what have you done with the original poster that goes by AWA320?

 

[wopr21]

Why don't you just answer the question? Truth hurts doesn't it pal????

Let me ask it again just in case you forgot, Where is an 18yr pilot on your list today? That would be a 1989 hire.
I'm waiting!!!

Thats your problem, you can't see past today. On the Nic list ,I have my relative seniorty today, but I have much to loose as the years go on. My career expectations have been in a perpetual flux since I got hired. DOH is all we have left over here. I will not stand idle and watch a 98 hire steal a well earned and deserved position from me or any of my colleagues.
Take a look a little closer and you will see an enlightened reality.

By the way, we are not your "pals" and your path to the truth is flawed.

wopr21

 

[nostradamus]

QUOTE(nostradamus @ Jun 11 2007, 11:49 AM) *

Right where he belongs. Your last quote. It should read,

"In my opinion, right where he belongs."

767jetz quote

"No, actually what I said was accurate as written. Some things, such as this, are black and white, right or wrong, however you want to word it."

Nostradamus says;

Death and taxes are the only thing that is black and white, this one will eventually be classified as black and blue.

 

[AWA320]

Thats your problem, you can't see past today. On the Nic list ,I have my relative seniorty today, but I have much to loose as the years go on. My career expectations have been in a perpetual flux since I got hired. DOH is all we have left over here. I will not stand idle and watch a 98 hire steal a well earned and deserved position from me or any of my colleagues.
Take a look a little closer and you will see an enlightened reality.

By the way, we are not your "pals" and your path to the truth is flawed.

wopr21

How is that our fault and why in Gods name should we pay for it???

No we may not be pals becuase you expect to stab us in the back to get something you lost to someone else! In reality, don't you just want a winfall at my expense??

you said it yourself, you have the same relative position but you wish to make up for lost time on my back. Seems like you path to the truth is flawed PAL!!!!

 

[ClueByFour]

Clue,

Clue asked: "Why did the East group not suggest that (fences, shared growth, and scope protections) in negotiations before arbitration?"

USA320Pilot answers: That is a question I cannot answer because I was not part of the proceedings and only 3 US Airways pilots had an input -- Merger Committee members Kevin Berry, Phil Carey, and Bob Kirsch. Per the Constitution and By-Laws the Merger Committee is antonymous from the MEC, although let's be realistic the MEC did provide input.

"Provide input?" They tried to recall members who were not singing "DOH!" at the top of their lungs.

The East pilot group got exactly what it wanted (or should have expected) with a hard-core DOH stance.

While I (nor anyone else) don't know what would have happened had the East MEC/Merger Committee offered the fences in question with a slotting integration (because DOH is a non-starter and the HP guys and any other sane person is going to go with a "relative seniority" approach) before the arbitration, it's safe to say that the result would have almost had to have been better than what the East got.

And some of us (outsiders, even) knew it back then (although I do admit that I would have figured that educated men and women would not be nearly as "shocked" by it as many from the East claim to be).

 

[USA320Pilot]

Clue,

There is nothing that can be cone about the past and only the future.

In regard to the pilot seniority issue, either the parties negotiate a consensual agreement or the Nicolau Award will not be implemented for possibly a decade, there will be no new joint pilot contract, the operation will continue to suffer, the toxic relationship between the two pilot groups will continue to deteriorate, customer service will suffer, and earnings will be depressed or could become loses.

For the East during this period, if all things remain equal, the East pilots will see movement up the seniority list, increased pay and DC Plan contributions due to reserves becoming lineholders, First Officers becoming Captain’s, and narrowbody pilots becoming widebody pilots, and improved schedules with more time off.

For the West they will see the same pay, very little movement up the seniority list, a huge union fight with the decertification problem, and a deteriorating company whose financials will be sores off.

What everybody needs to understand is that the vast majority of US Airways pilots are content to live under LOA 93 versus accepting the Nicolau Award because the East pilots believe the award violates ALPA Merger Policy. Therefore, the option of reaching a consensual agreement per the EC’s May 24 resolution rests squarely on the shoulders of the West pilots. No consensual seniority integration agreement then no joint contract, potential Section VI negotiations for the West (if permitted because of the Transition Agreement), and a toxic relationship with their East counterparts.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[AWA320]

You are being way too polite today, who are you and what have you done with the original poster that goes by AWA320?

To be completely honest I am for the most part a polite person however like any human when attacked I tend to bite back. Now does this excuse my behavior? probably not however I do ask that you at the very least understand it.

 

[electricjet98]

For the East during this period, if all things remain equal, the East pilots will see movement up the seniority list, increased pay and DC Plan contributions due to reserves becoming lineholders, First Officers becoming Captain’s, and narrowbody pilots becoming widebody pilots, and improved schedules with more time off.


Regards,

USA320Pilot

And please tell me what will happen to your cherished attrition when age 65 becomes a reality via congressional action this fall or early '08, as now championed by ALPA? Attrition from retirement...poof! Except for medical or other limited events, your attrition will be zero. How many aircraft is AAA slated to loose this year? If Parker wants to capture all of the synergies, all he need do is increase the flying of the west pilots through your domiciles; like CLT to West Palm or PHL to ATL. Can YOU say STAGNATION!

 

[wopr21]

(How is that our fault and why in Gods name should we pay for it??? )
Maybe with the profit sharing check we gave to you in good faith,,by the way YOUR WELCOME. I never said it was your fault.

(No we may not be pals becuase you expect to stab us in the back to get something you lost to someone else!)
DOH with the appropriate fences is not stabbing you in the back. I think the knife is in the back of the furloughed guy that was on the property this year and was nailed to the bottom.

(In reality, don't you just want a windfall at my expense??)
So now you admit that there is such thing as a windfall. Maybe we can go from here.

(you said it yourself, you have the same relative position but you wish to make up for lost time on my back. Seems like you path to the truth is flawed PAL!!!!)
My time here is not lost and I have the flight time to prove it. You will never understand the meaning of tenure.

You remind me of that kid in Willy Wonka "I want the golden goose NOW daddy!" (stomp stomp)