Fences...So how do we do it?

[A320Driver]

Throw out the fence for the top 517. Then upgrades will be reserved based on a ratio of retiring East Captains to retiring West Captains. This would be for attrition based vacancies only. New growth aircraft would be seniority list rules, all fleet types.

Or, in exchange for a fence, give the West pilots a higher B fund to compensate for the PBGC benefits in the East.

Or, I could just go fly a kite. :down:

 

[AWA320]

Here we go again, the broken record man speaks. How about we not post any Ideas anymore since you wont budge and we wont budge either. In your eyes the windfall is fair and in ours it is totally unfair. It will be a long time bubba until you steal our seats. I hope ALPO agrees with the list then we can get out. I have been wanting to decertify for many years. Remember this bubba, you westies have a lot more to lose than we do. Are you calling us bone heads? I am so hurt.

OK from broken record man to I deserve everything you got man!

Here is the best we are going to offer at this point. PAY AND BENEFITS ONLY!!!!!!

Get it yet???

 

[Hawkhunter]

OK from broken record man to I deserve everything you got man!

Here is the best we are going to offer at this point. PAY AND BENEFITS ONLY!!!!!!

Get it yet???

Oh Oh, AWA320 is angry again. I dont want anything you have, I just want to keep what we have.You wont be getting it anytime soon. Stick the PAY AND BENEFITS. I truly hope we meet up one day though! Take care.

 

[73320]

AAA,

If this were pre arb discussion, I would have given you all your heavies fenced for much longer duration,and given you a large amount of your attrition. Not all of it in case AWA has no movement. West was moving and needs to be included in any movement that does occur even if it is just attrition. I would want relative seniority similar to what Nicalau did, this would have taken some serious thought to movement in an up and down environment. The East pilots I talked to before the arb. thought the idea reasonable even if they liked DOH better. I dont think the East would have agreed to something like that before the award. Now it is too late, and all I can offer you is my plan to do my part in what I think is fair...I will be staying in PHX and continuing on as if nothing changed. The only change will likely be that I will stagnate in PHX if EAST Capt's come west. I can accept that, and I do hope they enjoy PHX base if they come west. Good Luck to us all!

 

[AAA#6]

I am glad to see this post has generated some folks willing to look outside the box. For those that say the award is the award and it is a binding award. You're right.
But I have been through and seen many legal battles where ultimately the two groups have to find a mutual benefit to keep the operation going, or there will be no operation.
Now with that said....is this a dance of chicken between the two sides? Will AWA test the AAA guys to see if the EAST burns down? Or will the AAA guys stand tough and not take anything less that DOH for all AAA pilots (including furloughs). Don't be suprised (I won't) if the MEC's eventually put something together.

If the majority of West are not interested in the East bases, then the East attrition shouldn't be an issue. The issue is how to modify any growth that is to come out of this company. Let's face it DP and SK want to go international.

What if we were to merge with another group..wouldn't it be better to be united as one against the next merger...or should we fight and let the next merger group exploit us?

Keep a master seniority based on the Nicolau award for growth issues, and modify the list for attrition. This way AAA gets the retirement in domicile they want, and AWA doesn't sell off it's right to future flying or domicile movement per growth aircraft...likewise the same (growth) for AAA. (Just a thought..don't shoot me! )

Of course this would have to be worked more in depth to seperate growth from replacement (E190 replacing 737). It would be nice to see the AWA guys have the ability to get East and the PSA guys shorten their commutes.

Again..let's not stir the pot..Let's see what ideas we can come up with. Thanks for all those that really looked at this and were constructive. Please let's not stir the pot. It's thick as molasses now. Meaning nobody is budging.


Adios Amigos.

 

[AAA#6]

AAA,

If this were pre arb discussion, I would have given you all your heavies fenced for much longer duration,and given you a large amount of your attrition. Not all of it in case AWA has no movement. West was moving and needs to be included in any movement that does occur even if it is just attrition. I would want relative seniority similar to what Nicalau did, this would have taken some serious thought to movement in an up and down environment. The East pilots I talked to before the arb. thought the idea reasonable even if they liked DOH better. I dont think the East would have agreed to something like that before the award. Now it is too late, and all I can offer you is my plan to do my part in what I think is fair...I will be staying in PHX and continuing on as if nothing changed. The only change will likely be that I will stagnate in PHX if EAST Capt's come west. I can accept that, and I do hope they enjoy PHX base if they come west. Good Luck to us all!

I am actually an AWA guy like you. I just happen to hit the second A in AAA#6 instead of the W. Oooops.

I really would hate to see domicile fences. We need to get past this us vs. them attitude. This use to be a fun job...that paid really well. We are paid so-so, deal with more crap, and now we fight with each other. Hardly sounds like fun.

It is not for me to decide...but if East were to make some assurances about a 50/50 share in growth in all domiciles above a stated minimum equipment number, and keep the Nicolau list in effect for bidding lines, time off, vacation..etc for the attrition they want...I might be game.

AAA gets the attrition, upgrades from attrition, plus 50% growth in any domicile (no fence). AWA gets growth protections and the Nicolau ratio for standard bidding routines.

Just my opinion, or offer. 🙄

 

[electricjet98]

Or, in exchange for a fence, give the West pilots a higher B fund to compensate for the PBGC benefits in the East.

:down:

And don't forget the higher percentage of increase in compensation that the east will see compared to the west!!! Calculate the pay increase that the west is NOT getting compared to the east and deposit that amount into our 401k's each year that the fence is up. If the east is getting a 10% increase in compensation to just bring them up to match us, we should get an additional 10% in our 401k's. When the fences go away, the additional 401k $ also goes away and everyone is equal.

 

[USA320Pilot]

In my opinion, if the AWA MEC takes the position of AWA320 then there will be no seniority list integration for many, many years, there will be no joint contract, the West pilots could get whip sawed, and the West pilots would have to enter Section VI negotiations, if that is possible per the Transition Agreement.

Why? The East pilot group has a contract in place and the vast majority of the pilots would prefer to live under LOA 93, which is legal, versus having the Nicolau Award proceed.

Why? The East pilots would have better grow pay and a better quality of life by not integrating under the terms of the Nicolau Award.

The problem for all US Airways stakeholders is that the infighting puts the business enterprise at risk, which is in nobody's best interest.

By a 13-1 vote the EC passed a resolution that states “the Executive Council is acutely aware of the negative consequences that may result if the MECs fail to come together to explore consensual approaches that promote career protection and mutual success.â€￾ Additionally it directs John Prater to continue to “employ all of the resources of the Association to assist the MECs in achieving these goals.â€￾

It is my understanding the EC authority for this action according to outside Counsel Mike Abarm, from Cowen, Weiss, and Simon, who has been an ALPA attorney for over 30 year's, is Article VI, Section 4 of the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws, which spells out the duties of the EC. The EC duties include “…consideration of and action upon the following matters: (1) interpretation of the Constitution and By-Laws...â€￾

Abram believes the EC has the power to interpret the Constitution and By-Laws, and, if the body finds the Constitution and By-Laws were not followed they have the legal right to intervene.

According to John McIlvenna, at this week's meeting, ALPA President "John Prater delivered the message that he wants the MECs to immediately engage in a process to utilize the JNC and other parties to explore fences and other career progression provisions."

Therefore, it appears the EC's desired alternative is a consensual agreement between the parties that creates fences, shared growth, shared scope protection, and a new combined contract with better pay and benefits.

I endorse this approach; however, if both the East and West pilots do not agree to negotiate some sort of an agreement similar in scope to what Prater and I have outlined then I believe there could be a very hostile toxic relationship between the East and West pilots that could cause this ship to sink faster than the Titanic.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[AWA320]

In my opinion, if the AWA MEC takes the position of AWA320 then there will be no seniority list integration for many, many years, there will be no joint contract, the West pilots could get whip sawed, and the West pilots would have to enter Section VI negotiations, if that is possible per the Transition Agreement.

Why? The East pilot group has a contract in place and the vast majority of the pilots would prefer to live under LOA 93, which is legal, versus having the Nicolau Award proceed.

Why? The East pilots would have better grow pay and a better quality of life by not integrating under the terms of the Nicolau Award.

The problem for all US Airways stakeholders is that the infighting puts the business enterprise at risk, which is in nobody's best interest.

By a 13-1 vote the EC passed a resolution that states “the Executive Council is acutely aware of the negative consequences that may result if the MECs fail to come together to explore consensual approaches that promote career protection and mutual success.â€￾ Additionally it directs John Prater to continue to “employ all of the resources of the Association to assist the MECs in achieving these goals.â€￾

It is my understanding the EC authority for this action according to outside Counsel Mike Abarm, from Cowen, Weiss, and Simon, who has been an ALPA attorney for over 30 year's, is Article VI, Section 4 of the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws, which spells out the duties of the EC. The EC duties include “…consideration of and action upon the following matters: (1) interpretation of the Constitution and By-Laws...â€￾

Abram believes the EC has the power to interpret the Constitution and By-Laws, and, if the body finds the Constitution and By-Laws were not followed they have the legal right to intervene.

According to John McIlvenna, at this week's meeting, ALPA President "John Prater delivered the message that he wants the MECs to immediately engage in a process to utilize the JNC and other parties to explore fences and other career progression provisions."

Therefore, it appears the EC's desired alternative is a consensual agreement between the parties that creates fences, shared growth, shared scope protection, and a new combined contract with better pay and benefits.

I endorse this approach; however, if both the East and West pilots do not agree to negotiate some sort of an agreement similar in scope to what Prater and I have outlined then I believe there could be a very hostile toxic relationship between the East and West pilots that could cause this ship to sink faster than the Titanic.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

You whipsaw comment made sense right up to the part where over 95% of your pilot force is at AAA top scale so no real benefit there for the company there!!

Yeah USA320 just about every AWA pilot feels as I do, you went into the arb case with the mindset of hoseing all of us with your DOH mantra and now that it hasn't happened you want us to deal with you?? Get real man, that time has long since past. I don't see the majority of your pilots living under LOA 93 while the west continues to make more than you. Yeah it's modest but it's still more.

No outside deals, no fences just pay and benefits.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

[Article VI, Section 4 of the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws, which spells out the duties of the EC. The EC duties include “…consideration of and action upon the following matters: (1) interpretation of the Constitution and By-Laws...”

USA320,

Is the merger policy part of the C&BL? I thought it was a policy. If the policy is part of the C&BL then the merger policy was approved by the vote of the BOD. I think before the EC goes around "interpreting" they should be seeking guidance first from each ALPA MEC about what they expected to happen when they wrote the merger policy.

Next, they need to be asking their legal counsel how they go about changing a policy and retroing that decision back to the current arbitration decision.

Next, they need to write a new policy and put it out for approval.

Then I'd suggest that you re-read the EC resolution that passed 13-1. Read the therefore be it resolved part.

Then come back here and post some fact based opinion.

Thanks much!

Bob

 

[USA320Pilot]

AWA320,

AWA320 said: "I don't see the majority of your pilots living under LOA 93 while the west continues to make more than you. Yeah it's modest but it's still more."

USA320pilot comments: I do. The vast majority of East pilots prefer to live under LOA 93 than to accept the Nicolau Award. In fact, the East pilots are now very content with LOA 93.

Do the East pilots want better pay and benefits? Yes, but they know one of their most important points of leverage is to not reach a joint contract.

Why? They believe the attrition creates better pay and a quality of life than implementing the Nicolau Award and obtaining a joint contract.

Why? Reserves become Lineholders, First Officers become Captains, Narrowbody pilots become higher paid widebody pilots, the East keeps all of the EMB-190 flying, the East keeps virtually all, if not all, of the transatlantic flying/growth, and a better quality of life.

After all from January 1 through July 1 there have been 386 furlough recalls per the Permanent Bid. How many pilots have been added to the West list during this period?

By not agreeing to a joint contract the East pilots will make more money over the long-haul by preventing a seniority list integration for many year's, with the added benefit of improved quality of life.

Thus, unless the AWA MEC changes their position on a consensual agreement on the seniority integration (which is the EC's and East MEC's desire) or there will be no joint contract, the AWA pilots will have to figure out what to do with their contract amendable, and the toxic East/West pilot group relationship will grow putting the company at greater "risk".

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[electricjet98]

Why? They believe the attrition creates better pay and a quality of life than implementing the Nicolau Award and obtaining a joint contract.

And please tell me what will happen to your cherished attrition when age 65 becomes a reality via congressional action this fall or early '08, as now championed by ALPA? Attrition from retirement...poof! Except for medical or other limited events, your attrition will be zero. How many aircraft is AAA slated to loose this year? If Parker wants to capture all of the synergies, all he need do is increase the flying of the west pilots through your domiciles; like CLT to West Palm or PHL to ATL. Can YOU say STAGNATION!

 

[Hawkhunter]

You whipsaw comment made sense right up to the part where over 95% of your pilot force is at AAA top scale so no real benefit there for the company there!!

Yeah USA320 just about every AWA pilot feels as I do, you went into the arb case with the mindset of hoseing all of us with your DOH mantra and now that it hasn't happened you want us to deal with you?? Get real man, that time has long since past. I don't see the majority of your pilots living under LOA 93 while the west continues to make more than you. Yeah it's modest but it's still more.

No outside deals, no fences just pay and benefits.

Blah, Blah, Blah. Broken record man.

 

[Freighterguynow]

AWA320,

AWA320 said: "I don't see the majority of your pilots living under LOA 93 while the west continues to make more than you. Yeah it's modest but it's still more."

USA320pilot comments: I do.

I do too. Many of you on the West do not have access to our Bid Awards and are unable to see the career hit 16 years does to earnings.

 

[AWA320]

Blah, Blah, Blah. Broken record man.

Oh you back to beg for more than your fair share again??

Ok here is a question for you theif!! What did 18yrs get you pre merger at AAA ie, where were these people on the seniority list??? Were they senior or JR. So today that would be a 1989 hire. Where are they on the list theif where??????

I do too. Many of you on the West do not have access to our Bid Awards and are unable to see the career hit 16 years does to earnings.

Hey, you gotta do what you gotta do! If you want your f/o's at $88/hr that's cool by me, I don't have to operate under those crappy work rules on the east.