F/a Sicklist On The Climb!

[Garfield1966]

Rumor has it that the attendance policy will be under review some time soon. I hope they are right but I will not believe it till I see it. Unfortunately I do not think anyone in this company has the back bone to come up with something that is workable and enforceable.

So I guess we will have this circus again next year just like we have had each and every other year. C’est la vie.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Garfield, (Oh my GOD), your right !!!!!!!!!!!!!

As long as the F/A's have a current contract(and they do), and as long as F/A's "cross ALL their T'(s), and DOT ALL their I(s)", there is NOTHING Mngt. can do about sick time.


Now GOD forbid that AA (hypothetically) suggest EXTRA rest time(hotels), if SK were to go down, noticeably, or some other sign of "good faith".................

Naw, NEVER happen. Forgive me, I just had a "weak moment". I actually thought AA REALLY cared about the PROFESSIONAL men and women, who risk life, limb, and HEALTH, every day.

NH/BB's

 

[Garfield1966]

Bear,

The rest time has nothing and should have nothing to do with the sick list. First of all, the rest should be increased regardless of what the sick list is or was. Second, a person should not have to be “bribedâ€￾ to show up for their job. If a person does not like the work they are doing or does not feel that they are adequately compensated they are fee to seek employment else where. The only thing that will reduce the holiday flu is to get rid of the FA’s who have the holiday flu like Hotel boy. And just so cure talker does not get his nose out of joint, this should be addressed with all work groups.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Garfield1966;

Instead of looking at things with "blinders" on, try looking at "the big picture".

Meaning, instead of singleing out individual F/a's for finger pointing("blinders"),

Look at what might be done by the company in terms of apeasing the whole work group("big picture")

Of all the unions on the property, AA has had abhorable relations with the F/A's, that comes NO WHERE NEAR, TWU or APA.

If AA started to show some genuine RESPECT, for a sustained period of time to APFA, chances are "YOUR's", and "THEIR" jobs might become somewhat enjoyable.

BUT, it will HAVE to eminate from HDQ first !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Garfield, NEVER say NEVER !!!!!!!!

(Jesus, imagine me suggesting something POSITIVE) ????

NH/BB's

 

[Garfield1966]

What do you define as respect? I guess that is the part I do not see. When I look at a employer / employee relationship I see a entity (the employer) that sets down a set of rules or guidelines for what they want done in exchange for compensation to the employee for carrying out the assigned tasks. When I hired on to AA I was made clearly aware of what those tasks were. I agreed to do them and I was compensated for them. Respect, as far as I am concerned never comes into the picture. I respect my wife, family, friends and they respect me. In one of my jobs my performance was reviewed on a monthly basis and my raise was dependant on my performance compared to the rest of the people in my department. The standards were changed on a yearly basis depending on performance the previous year and in order to get better performance in subsequent years. Did I agree with it, no not always but I did not, and do not see it as my prerogative to tell my employer how I want to be judged or compensated. If I do not like something, I can ask to have it changed or I can seek alternate employment.

Having said this it always fascinates me that when something goes wrong, it is always someone else’s fault. I worked customer service for several years and I can count on 1 hand the number of times a customer came to me and admitted fault. I am by no means saying that AA is innocent. I have been screwed over (in my opinion) numerous times in my career with AA. The problems are not only with one side of the coin. Both sides, in my opinion, are equally culpable for the problems that exist. When employees abuse or take advantage, employers clamp down and it turns in to a tit for tat.

Economic times have changed. Someone in a different thread said that the economy is cyclical. I agree with that, but I do not believe that the airline industry will ever go back to what it was. I am working twice as hard for less pay. So is nearly every other blue collar employee in the US. That is just the way it is. I do not see my self getting a raise in 5 years if even then. Do I like that idea? No. And I believe that you, the FA’s, the pilots, and all the other unions along with senior management will all see raises before me. Work rules will be based on efficiency. I do not see that changing with out completely tearing down the existing structures. That includes both management and the unions. Both sides are in it for them selves, not for the greater good. Until that changes, I do not believe anything else will.

 

[jimntx]

What do you define as respect? I guess that is the part I do not see. When I look at a employer / employee relationship I see a entity (the employer) that sets down a set of rules or guidelines for what they want done in exchange for compensation to the employee for carrying out the assigned tasks. When I hired on to AA I was made clearly aware of what those tasks were. I agreed to do them and I was compensated for them. Respect, as far as I am concerned never comes into the picture.

Gar, remember this if Bush has his way and gets his Mexican Guest Worker plan passed by Congress. AMR will then offer you and all the other non-represented employees $5.50/hr (minimum wage) to continue doing your jobs. When you walk off, they can then certify to the Bush Administration that no Americans are willing to do the job so they can get permission to import guest workers.

I'm one who 10 years ago would have said, "It'll never happen." But, today Levi Strauss closed their last 2 U.S. manufacturing plants. All Levi's are now foreign made.

 

[Garfield1966]

I see your point but would that not have more to do with government regulation? At what point does an employer lose their right to pay what the market will bear? Is not the idea behind capitalism? I am not saying that I agree with that idea nor am I denying that what you are saying is not going to materialize. As you stated, it is already happening in industries all over the country. Politics and immigration laws aside, if I open a company, shouldn’t I be allowed to determine what salary is paid and not be dictated to by a group? I am not sure what the answer is.

What I do know is that the system that is place now does not work. Relations between labor and management in AA as well as the rest of the country is getting worse not better. Something that occurred to me is that our standard of living in the US is perhaps a large part of the problem. I am not an economist but it seems to me that if you look at a lot of the countries where work is being shipped to and then you look at the US, the problem seems evident. Other countries are able to out cost us because their labor does not need half the money we do to improve their standard of living. We are pricing our selves out of our own jobs. The more I read and the more I hear people talk the more I think that we are on the Titanic and the life boats have left. If we want to survive, we have to make our selves more competitive with our competition. That will mean working harder for less. Working longer for less. Working more efficiently for less. The alternative is no work, no money, no nothing.

 

[jimntx]

I see your point but would that not have more to do with government regulation? At what point does an employer lose their right to pay what the market will bear? Is not the idea behind capitalism? I am not saying that I agree with that idea nor am I denying that what you are saying is not going to materialize. As you stated, it is already happening in industries all over the country. Politics and immigration laws aside, if I open a company, shouldn’t I be allowed to determine what salary is paid and not be dictated to by a group? I am not sure what the answer is.

What I do know is that the system that is place now does not work. Relations between labor and management in AA as well as the rest of the country is getting worse not better. Something that occurred to me is that our standard of living in the US is perhaps a large part of the problem. I am not an economist but it seems to me that if you look at a lot of the countries where work is being shipped to and then you look at the US, the problem seems evident. Other countries are able to out cost us because their labor does not need half the money we do to improve their standard of living. We are pricing our selves out of our own jobs. The more I read and the more I hear people talk the more I think that we are on the Titanic and the life boats have left. If we want to survive, we have to make our selves more competitive with our competition. That will mean working harder for less. Working longer for less. Working more efficiently for less. The alternative is no work, no money, no nothing.

Oh, I don't think there is a simple straightforward answer because there are some valid argurments on both sides. Yes, employers have the right to offer whatever they think is fair as compensation for a given job. Employees have the right to accept or reject that offer.

Unionism arose in this country and others because employers were not offering a living wage and decent working conditions. I'm interested in your comment about our standard of living. You seem to imply that it is too high. Ok, what are you willing to give up to reduce the cost of living.

Let's see...
1. We could start paying the same for gasoline that the rest of the world pays (about $4/gal) and tell the Middle Eastern states to go jump in a lake. (Actually, this is one I would support. The artificially low price which we pay for fossil fuels is a scandal).
2. Perhaps you would be willing sacrifice first-class medical care for your family in return for "adequate" medical care.
3. Hey, we could do like India and allow a large percentage of the population to live in abject poverty and squalor without education, health care, or hope for a better life. That's one of the ways they keep societal costs down so that they can take our jobs for much lower salaries.
4. Maybe you would be willing to work for minimum wage for 12-16 hours a day every day at your scheduler job.

Before I became an independent consultant, I worked for a major oil company in Houston for 16+ years. At the time I left I was making about $50,000/year as a systems analyst. I was neither the highest nor lowest paid person doing similar work in the company. The person who replaced me was laid off when the job was outsourced to a company in India. My replacement has now been unemployed for over a year. He has lost his home and one of the family cars. There are no jobs in the salary range he was making. And, he has tried for lower paying jobs, but no one will hire him because "you wouldn't be happy working for what we can pay you." His children used to be able to participate in sports, take music lessons, etc. The family is now living in 2 bedroom apt in a not very nice neighborhood. Oh, the oil company was bought out by another oil company 2 years ago. That's when the outsourcing started. The department heads who sent his job to India took early retirement with huge cash bonusses for the "savings" they generated for the company.

Is there no point at which American jobs take precedence over almighty profit?

As far as American and its flight attendant corps...
Yes there are major problems. When I first started flying for American in Sept. 2000 I was struck by the animosity that existed between the f/as and management and it was on both sides! It seemed to me that management and the non-union people--such as schedulers--took great delight in pissing off the flight attendants at every opportunity. Where this started I don't know and I don't care, but it definitely is something that has been going on for a long time. And, the flight attendants retaliated in kind by calling in sick or reporting late for work or refusing to answer their telephones while on call.

It doesn't have to be this way. Flight attendants at Continental are valued and TREATED like valued employees. The ones I know would do just about anything management asked them to do if they knew it would help the company. Look at Southwest. Even with the current contract disputes, you don't hear of flight attendants threatening work slowdowns or mass sick call-ins. There is a reason for all this. What do you think it could be?

 

[Garfield1966]

As for the standard of living, I am not necessarily saying it is “too†high. It is higher than anywhere else in the world. My point was that this is a big reason why labor is so inexpensive out side the US. You mention fuel prices. While this is off the topic I will mention it since it was brought up. If half the money that was invested in oil exploration and processing was invested in alternative fuels, we would not need the oil companies or their baggage. Health care? My mom fell in Germany and broke her elbow in 6 places. She received better health care in Germany for a lower price than she could have ever received here.

All I was attempting to point out was that our standard of living is part of the reason jobs are being lost to foreign markets.

I have heard the argument that we have taken “delight†in pissing off the FA’s. How doe we do that? It’s not like we can arbitrarily amend or ignore the contract. We do not go out looking for work to do. If we have a flight to cover, we cover it the most efficient way possible. Do mistakes happen? Yes. Are they intentional? I doubt it because we do not have a union to hide behind if we screw up. We have to answer to our managers and seniors.

You say that there is animosity and that CO is so much better. What are the differences? What are your suggestions to fix the problem? From my perspective I do not see the problem. I come to work, do my job and go home. I have done this for nearly 20 years with AA. Why were people pissed in 2000 when money was flowing like water, everyone (except us) was getting raises. There was profit sharing. Were people still ticked off about the 1993 strike? What is wrong? I still have not seen anyone lay out what the grievances are. I know one is the reduced rest, but that just started last year so it does not explain the animosity you felt back in 2000. What is respect? How does AA not respect you? How could AA show more respect to you? How does CO treat their employees like “valued†people. What does that mean?

I am not trying to me a smart ass. I have just heard these terms thrown around and they are so vague that they are meaningless to me.

To answer you question about what I would give up. I am not sure. It will depend on what is at stake and what the alternatives are. As a nation we are already giving up quite a bit. The poor are growing in proportion to the rich every day. There are more and more unemployed that in recent history. I’ll give up what ever I need to give up in order to survive and depending on the situation, I will give up for someone else to have a better life as well. I know that is vague, but until the situation comes to my front door, it’s hard to say.

 

[TWAnr]

I have heard the argument that we have taken “delightâ€￾ in pissing off the FA’s. How doe we do that?

Garfield,

I gave a detailed answer to that question, in September, in a thread titled Work Ethics, How is this for work ethics.

Getting back to the topic at hand, it the crew schedulers were more mindful and respective of the flight attendants personal and family lives needs and accommodated them by showing some concern and flexibility, more flight attendants would be willing to accept reassignments every now and then (as opposed to it being the new work routine).

Just my 2¢.

And

I was alluding to something a lot more elementary than the company agreeing to waivers of contractual provisions. I was referring to reserve management and about the need to show some sensitivity to the needs of the flight attendants.

On the last couple of occasions which my wife was on reserve, prior to her furlough, the airport standby room was full of flight attendants ready and able to fly trips on short notice, yet line holders were extended, while those who were there to cover last minute shortages were left unutilized. That is not even taking into account the dozens who were on ready reserve, ready to report to the airport on a two-hour notice.

On other occasions, my wife begged to be assigned long trips during four to six days long reserve spreads, instead of sitting in a hotel room or at the crew lounge in St. Louis, thousands of miles away from home, only to be given nothing except for a turn on the very last day of her availability period (which, by the way, almost always came back after the last flight left STL for home). Every month, line holders were extended while those on availability, who did not pre plot, flew only one or two trips a month and the reserves flew well under the pay guarantee.

On the few occasions that she needed a slight change of the check in time for airport standby duty, her requests were denied, just because the planner or scheduler had the power to do so, for no rational reason (twelve hours or more before the scheduled reporting time).

Some of the posters here may claim that this is only anecdotal evidence which does not reflect the situation of the majority of the flight attendants. I beg to differ. We have personally experienced these numerous times; I am also familiar with similar encounters experienced by countless others.

Those who have been flying for years, and who could hold lines that fit their personal needs, bid accordingly. In addition, many pay traders good money to rearrange their schedules for whatever their needs are. By indiscriminately, randomly, callously and insensitively extending trips and by ignoring those who are willing and available to fly, crew scheduling made a mockery of the bidding and trading system.

It is that type of history that has created the attitude that the crew schedulers are now facing. They sawed the seed, now, they reap the harvest.

 

[Garfield1966]

Let’s try and deal with this one item at a time.


If the standby room was full and we were extending line holders my guess is the avg reserve hours were very high and we were trying to save the hours for the end of the month when coverage is the most difficult. With out knowing exactly when this took place and what the situation was I can not say this was the case for certain but that is more than likely what happened. We do not like pairing up FA’s. It requires additional work on our part and no one likes to do more than they have to do to get through the day. We do not do it for kicks, we do it because the situation warrants it.

When hours are not critical we assign FA’s according to how many hours they have already flown. Those with the least amount of hours get the first trip. If it is a turn then you get a turn. Reserves do not have the ability to pick and choose their trips. They are allowed to put in preferences and when able, the computer will plot according to those preferences. Every FA out there who flys reserve has a very good reason for wanting one trip or another. If we grant your wife her request then we have to grant everybody their request. It is all or nothing. SLT was a pain while it was still running. As I recall there were tones of trips in open time and very few reserves (compared to what we needed) so the line holders got paired up and the reserves got saved for when / if things got bad. Could it have been handled better, yes. Did we do it just to piss you and your wife off, please, if you believe that you have delusions of grandeur.

I’ll say it again, reserves do not have a choice of what or when they fly. We waive SI only if we call a reserve out less than 3 hours to departure. We do not care if you are a commuter, have 10 kids or what ever. I have to be at work at 5am, not 5:01 or 5:02, but 5am. The way I am reading your post is that your wife is a commuter. Sorry, but that does not warrant a waiver for SI. Why not? Your wife asks for a 10 min waiver. What do I tell the next person who needs 15 min, or 16 min or 20 or 21 … where do we draw the line? SI is 1 hour before departure or ½ hour if it’s a dead head. That’s where the line was drawn. We are not permitted to show favoritism. You seem to be under the impression that we can do as we want. We are governed by a contract which clearly states what we can and cannot do. Don’t like it, then change it. While we are on the topic of favors, why should you be allowed to ask me favors (that violate the contract) and I can not do the same. Like fly someone over 30/7 or over 7 days in a row. It’s a two way street.

Asked and answered but I’ll say it again. I hate pairing up. It’s a pain in my ass. I do it when I do not have coverage. That usually is around the holidays when everyone calls in sick or if we are in an OS situation. The situation in SLT was unique in that it involved the ramping down of one system and the ramping up of a second along with all the unknowns and poor planning on AA’s part to deal with it. Not sure how it could have been done different but I am sure those who get paid to think of this stuff should have done a much better job handling the transition. Extending line holders and reassigning FA’s is allowed by the contract. If I have a flight that is going to be canceled if I don’t find a FA to fill the slot, you can be dam sure I will reassign or pair someone up if that is my only option. I cannot count the number of times I have spoken to a FA who I reassigned or paired up and have been told “This has never happened to me before …†and then continue to ream me. So I am guessing with 17,000 FA’s out there, the number of RA’s and pair ups is quite few over all. Yes this past holiday definitely saw a spike but when you have a sick list at 2,500 plus it’s going to happen.

Yes there are bad schedulers. I know who they are and wish to god they would leave. If you have a problem with someone then write them up. The more it happens the more likely we will be able to clean house. But, don’t you dare write us up for doing our job. We are tasked to crew the flights. We do so by any means at our disposal as allowed by the contract. We do not knowingly violate the contract. I have not had a pay claim yet and we are all very conscious about doing our job right and to the best of our ability. Actually, I think I did have 1 pay claim when I first got to crew skd but that was a long time ago. Have I made mistakes, sure and when I find them or someone points it out, I correct it. If you think we screwed up, then call us on it but have your facts ready. I do not feel like having a 12 minute discussion about a 30/7 problem which does not exist like I did the other day. We are the messenger. We do not write the contract, we only implement it. Don’t like the results, then change it. You want special treatment, go to Nordstroms. We do not do special treatment, we treat everyone the same.

Come on over to crew skd during an OSO operation and show us how to do it better. We would be more than happy to comply. Don’t have a better way to do it, then sit back and lets us do our job until you figure it out.

 

[Veritas]

Garfield, it is a two ways street.

You take the attitude that you can screw the flight attendants because you have the power to do so and the contract allows you to do it. They, in turn, will screw you in kind by calling in sick because the contract gives them sick leave.

A little accommodation goes a long way; as long as you and the company refuse to bend no matter what the circumstances are, the acrimony will continue.

You cannot have it both ways.

 

[jimntx]

I have heard the argument that we have taken “delightâ€￾ in pissing off the FA’s. How doe we do that? It’s not like we can arbitrarily amend or ignore the contract.

Well, I've posted it before and as I remember you denied that any such thing was happening, but here goes...

1. After I got in from a reserve trip at 1750, calling me at 0130 the next morning to tell me I had 1500 sign-in. It happened more than once or twice.

2. Sending me on an illegal trip when I had tried to tell the scheduler and the senior on duty THE DAY BEFORE that I was legal to sit the stand-by, but that I couldn't go anywhere because of a 7-day legality. I was assigned standby from 1730 until 2330 on the last day of the month. I called scheduling and my FSM the day before as soon as I saw the assignment in my HI1 to point out that the next day would be my 6th straight day on duty. When I was assigned a VM flight on that late, but not lamented 2230 flight to Tulsa, I tried again to point out that I was illegal. The scheduler conveniently did not enter the trip into the computer before the flight took off. I got to Tulsa to discover that according to my HI1 I was still sitting standby in DFW. When I called scheduling, I was told, "Oh, you have a 7-day legality problem. You are going to have to stay in Tulsa for 30 hours before we can deadhead you back. After I told the senior on duty that it was on the tape that I had informed scheduling of this problem over 24 hours before and that he was to release me and I would use some of my SOS cards to get back to DFW, he decided that he could deadhead me home the next morning after all. Of course, I lost the first trip of my next month thanks to scheduling's deliberate screw-up because my HI1 was so screwed up that the system dropped the trip from schedule because it thought I had two trips the same day.

3. When sitting standby in Terminal B alone at night--there wasn't even anyone at the MOD desk--I called scheduling that I was going up to the concourse to get something to eat and that I would bring it back to eat, but that it might take me 10-15 minutes to get back. (You do know that B Ops is down at the ramp level, don't you?) I told the scheduler that she could reach me on my cell phone if she needed me in that time period. Her response, "If you don't call me back if I page you in Ops, you'll get a missed trip. I'm not wasting my time calling you on your cell phone."

4. On a day of bad weather at DFW, cancelling my trip 2 hours in advance, but not bothering to call and tell me. I drove through flood water to get to the airport to find out that I couldn't sign in because I didn't have a trip. When I called scheduling, I was told to wait around the airport in case they needed me. Fine. I would always rather fly than sit at home. 2.5 hours later, without a peep from scheduling, I signed on to the computer to see if a friend's flight had gotten off. I discovered on my own that not only had I been assigned a trip, but it departed in 45 minutes from another terminal. Oh, and scheduling gave me a late sign-in to boot. Because I had several witnesses that I had never been paged, the company decided they wouldn't risk losing another grievance and took off the late sign-in.

5. I will grant you that there are/were some serious grooming problems among SOME of the flight attendants. But, instead of having the intestinal fortitude to call in those particular flight attendants and telling them to get their act together, Flight Service decides to send out a 3 page diatribe to all 27,000 flight attendants about the lack of grooming. Talk about a waste of time and trees!

6. I have spent most of my adult life working in major industry, and AMR is the only corporation I know of that has a management title called attendance manager--particularly directed at only one employee work group. Other airlines don't even have such a ridiculous job. It seems to me that it skirts the edges of legality when you grant an employee benefit--and yes, I am aware that sick leave is a benefit and not a right--but you harass the employee if they take advantage of the benefit. Gar, are you aware that a flight attendant gets a letter from their Attendance manager if they call in sick even 1 time. Most companies, including airlines, wait until there appears to be a pattern to the sick calls--such as, always sick on holidays, or Monday, or Friday-- before they question whether the person was actually sick.

And, we are talking about an employee group that spends their workdays shut up in aluminum tubes with every sick person in North America. And, don't say there is a company policy that obviously ill people should not be boarded. Everytime the flight attendants try to utlilize that policy we get over-ridden by the gate agents and the cockpit. During the height of the SARS epidemic, we were forced to transport a woman from LA to DFW who by her own admission was running a fever of 104 and who had just gotten off a plane from Hong Kong! The gate people said they would remove her only on the captain's orders and he said he would order it only if the gate people thought it best. The woman hacked and coughed and sneezed all the way to DFW. Of course, none of the decision non-makers had to be around her--just the flight attendants and the other first class passengers. It cost the company big bucks because every one of the other first class passengers threw a fit when we got to DFW; so, to placate them the company had to issue a bunch of vouchers for free first class travel. Then they tried to turn around and blame it on us anyway. I got called in (hell, I was the #4 on a S80) and asked why I didn't enforce the ill passenger policy!!!!! Fortunately, I'm a documentation freak. My written report named names of gate agents and cockpit crews and included exact quotes of their statements to me. The issue was dropped.


In not quite 3 years of flying before I was furloughed, I never had a late sign-in or a missed trip. The last time I was on the sick list was April of 2001 and that was by orders of AA Medical (blocked ears). I never failed to show up in full uniform with my shoes shined. Before the program was cancelled when I had been flying less than 2 years, I collected over 50 SOS cards from passengers and had 5 letters of commendation from passengers to the company about me. Yet, I have had more than one scheduler talk to me like I was dog poop that had deliberately stuck myself to the bottom of their shoe.

If you need any further demonstrations of lack of respect for flight attendants, I'm sure I can come up with some. These are just some of the more memorable ones.

And, again, I'm not saying YOU did it, but people you work with and for did. Unless friends of mine at Northwest and Continental and Southwest are lying, these kinds of things don't happen to them or any flight attendants they know.

 

[Bob Owens]

I see your point but would that not have more to do with government regulation? At what point does an employer lose their right to pay what the market will bear? Is not the idea behind capitalism? I am not saying that I agree with that idea nor am I denying that what you are saying is not going to materialize. As you stated, it is already happening in industries all over the country. Politics and immigration laws aside, if I open a company, shouldn’t I be allowed to determine what salary is paid and not be dictated to by a group? I am not sure what the answer is.

What I do know is that the system that is place now does not work. Relations between labor and management in AA as well as the rest of the country is getting worse not better. Something that occurred to me is that our standard of living in the US is perhaps a large part of the problem. I am not an economist but it seems to me that if you look at a lot of the countries where work is being shipped to and then you look at the US, the problem seems evident. Other countries are able to out cost us because their labor does not need half the money we do to improve their standard of living. We are pricing our selves out of our own jobs. The more I read and the more I hear people talk the more I think that we are on the Titanic and the life boats have left. If we want to survive, we have to make our selves more competitive with our competition. That will mean working harder for less. Working longer for less. Working more efficiently for less. The alternative is no work, no money, no nothing.

I see your point but would that not have more to do with government regulation? At what point does an employer lose their right to pay what the market will bear?

At the same point where workers can no longer collectively use their right to quit work and go on strike. It is a fact that in todays economy the majority of people have to sell their labor, and that the purchasor of labor has the advantage. Many suppliers, few consumers. Plus the fact is that suppliers (workers) can not "stockpile" labor, they can withhold it but unless they can convince other suppliers to do the same its ineffective. It is known that people would, out of desperation sell themselves into slavery.Bush wants amnesty for illegals because that will just further increase the supply of labor.The employers, in our case the airlines(consumers of labor) can and do further increase their advantage by forming associations such as AIRCON, the ATA etc and though political lobbying. Suppliers in turn form unions. For a while things were more balanced. However legislation and poor leadership of unions has tilted the scales more in managements favor.

The fact is that our government will not allow workers to charge what the "market will bear". We saw that when the President issued PEBs against the mechanics at NWA, UAL, the flight attendants at AA and stepped in on the Longshoremans dispute. When workers enter into an agreement they are bound to it, however companies can go C-11 and get out of contracts. Companies, legal entities that are not human or citizens in fact have more rights and get more protections from the government than workers do.


What I do know is that the system that is place now does not work. Relations between labor and management in AA as well as the rest of the country is getting worse not better. Something that occurred to me is that our standard of living in the US is perhaps a large part of the problem. I am not an economist but it seems to me that if you look at a lot of the countries where work is being shipped to and then you look at the US, the problem seems evident. Other countries are able to out cost us because their labor does not need half the money we do to improve their standard of living. We are pricing our selves out of our own jobs. The more I read and the more I hear people talk the more I think that we are on the Titanic and the life boats have left. If we want to survive, we have to make our selves more competitive with our competition. That will mean working harder for less. Working longer for less. Working more efficiently for less. The alternative is no work, no money, no nothing.


Maybe we need better leaders? The ones we have say that we must work harder, longer and more efficiently for less while they make more than ever before. A little bit of a contradiction dont you think? We must compete while they make sure that they dont have to. We still, in theory, live in a Democracy, we do not have to tolerate this. We can vote in leaders who will demand fair trade, not 'free" trade. Trade that benifits the people and not just the rich. Leaders that demand that products sold here, in the biggest market in the world, are made under the same conditions as those made here.If you dont want to adhere to the standards of the ILO and our own standards, your products are not welcome here.

I have no problem competing on a level plane, but competing against slave labor, child labor, poverty stricken and government suppressed workers in other countries will only put us in a race to the bottom. I'm not interested in finding out how little and how harsh of conditions human beings can be forced to work under. Our forefathers did not come here to see if they could do with less here than where they left.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I have heard the argument that we have taken “delight” in pissing off the FA’s. How doe we do that? It’s not like we can arbitrarily amend or ignore the contract.

Well, I've posted it before and as I remember you denied that any such thing was happening, but here goes...

1. After I got in from a reserve trip at 1750, calling me at 0130 the next morning to tell me I had 1500 sign-in. It happened more than once or twice.

2. Sending me on an illegal trip when I had tried to tell the scheduler and the senior on duty THE DAY BEFORE that I was legal to sit the stand-by, but that I couldn't go anywhere because of a 7-day legality. I was assigned standby from 1730 until 2330 on the last day of the month. I called scheduling and my FSM the day before as soon as I saw the assignment in my HI1 to point out that the next day would be my 6th straight day on duty. When I was assigned a VM flight on that late, but not lamented 2230 flight to Tulsa, I tried again to point out that I was illegal. The scheduler conveniently did not enter the trip into the computer before the flight took off. I got to Tulsa to discover that according to my HI1 I was still sitting standby in DFW. When I called scheduling, I was told, "Oh, you have a 7-day legality problem. You are going to have to stay in Tulsa for 30 hours before we can deadhead you back. After I told the senior on duty that it was on the tape that I had informed scheduling of this problem over 24 hours before and that he was to release me and I would use some of my SOS cards to get back to DFW, he decided that he could deadhead me home the next morning after all. Of course, I lost the first trip of my next month thanks to scheduling's deliberate screw-up because my HI1 was so screwed up that the system dropped the trip from schedule because it thought I had two trips the same day.

3. When sitting standby in Terminal B alone at night--there wasn't even anyone at the MOD desk--I called scheduling that I was going up to the concourse to get something to eat and that I would bring it back to eat, but that it might take me 10-15 minutes to get back. (You do know that B Ops is down at the ramp level, don't you?) I told the scheduler that she could reach me on my cell phone if she needed me in that time period. Her response, "If you don't call me back if I page you in Ops, you'll get a missed trip. I'm not wasting my time calling you on your cell phone."

4. On a day of bad weather at DFW, cancelling my trip 2 hours in advance, but not bothering to call and tell me. I drove through flood water to get to the airport to find out that I couldn't sign in because I didn't have a trip. When I called scheduling, I was told to wait around the airport in case they needed me. Fine. I would always rather fly than sit at home. 2.5 hours later, without a peep from scheduling, I signed on to the computer to see if a friend's flight had gotten off. I discovered on my own that not only had I been assigned a trip, but it departed in 45 minutes from another terminal. Oh, and scheduling gave me a late sign-in to boot. Because I had several witnesses that I had never been paged, the company decided they wouldn't risk losing another grievance and took off the late sign-in.

5. I will grant you that there are/were some serious grooming problems among SOME of the flight attendants. But, instead of having the intestinal fortitude to call in those particular flight attendants and telling them to get their act together, Flight Service decides to send out a 3 page diatribe to all 27,000 flight attendants about the lack of grooming. Talk about a waste of time and trees!

6. I have spent most of my adult life working in major industry, and AMR is the only corporation I know of that has a management title called attendance manager--particularly directed at only one employee work group. Other airlines don't even have such a ridiculous job. It seems to me that it skirts the edges of legality when you grant an employee benefit--and yes, I am aware that sick leave is a benefit and not a right--but you harass the employee if they take advantage of the benefit. Gar, are you aware that a flight attendant gets a letter from their Attendance manager if they call in sick even 1 time. Most companies, including airlines, wait until there appears to be a pattern to the sick calls--such as, always sick on holidays, or Monday, or Friday-- before they question whether the person was actually sick.

And, we are talking about an employee group that spends their workdays shut up in aluminum tubes with every sick person in North America. And, don't say there is a company policy that obviously ill people should not be boarded. Everytime the flight attendants try to utlilize that policy we get over-ridden by the gate agents and the cockpit. During the height of the SARS epidemic, we were forced to transport a woman from LA to DFW who by her own admission was running a fever of 104 and who had just gotten off a plane from Hong Kong! The gate people said they would remove her only on the captain's orders and he said he would order it only if the gate people thought it best. The woman hacked and coughed and sneezed all the way to DFW. Of course, none of the decision non-makers had to be around her--just the flight attendants and the other first class passengers. It cost the company big bucks because every one of the other first class passengers threw a fit when we got to DFW; so, to placate them the company had to issue a bunch of vouchers for free first class travel. Then they tried to turn around and blame it on us anyway. I got called in (hell, I was the #4 on a S80) and asked why I didn't enforce the ill passenger policy!!!!! Fortunately, I'm a documentation freak. My written report named names of gate agents and cockpit crews and included exact quotes of their statements to me. The issue was dropped.


In not quite 3 years of flying before I was furloughed, I never had a late sign-in or a missed trip. The last time I was on the sick list was April of 2001 and that was by orders of AA Medical (blocked ears). I never failed to show up in full uniform with my shoes shined. Before the program was cancelled when I had been flying less than 2 years, I collected over 50 SOS cards from passengers and had 5 letters of commendation from passengers to the company about me. Yet, I have had more than one scheduler talk to me like I was dog poop that had deliberately stuck myself to the bottom of their shoe.

If you need any further demonstrations of lack of respect for flight attendants, I'm sure I can come up with some. These are just some of the more memorable ones.

And, again, I'm not saying YOU did it, but people you work with and for did. Unless friends of mine at Northwest and Continental and Southwest are lying, these kinds of things don't happen to them or any flight attendants they know.

jimntx;

"Fortunately i'm a documentation freak" THAT MY FRIEND(especially working for THIS company) IS THE BEST THING YOU CAN DO !!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, EVEN BETTER !

For $50 at any "radio shack", you can buy a mini TAPE RECORDER.

It IS illegal to tape a persons conversation with you, if they are NOT aware of it.

IT IS "NOT" illegal to do so if the FIRST words out of you mouth are (quote)(hypothetically) "Hello crew sked, this is F/A john smith #123456, I'm callin in for .................., and it's my duty to legally inform you that our conversation is being RECORDED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You will be amazed at how OFFICIALLY you treated.

jimntx, SPREAD THE WORD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!










Garfield1966.
I'm curious to know if any F/A has ever LEGALLY recorded a 2 way conversation with you ??????????





TWAnr, If your out there, (as an attorney), whats your take on this scenario ???

NH/BB's