F/A Furlough

[Skymess]

Hey ... You dog the union every chance you get...But dont forget that APFA protected your senority otherwise you'd be getting furloughed on 01Apr09. Also the union cant just go into management and demand things be changed overnight....You'll see for the first time that it takes a long time to get what we want....
We had bag tags and slogans in 1993 that brought us all together .... That togetherness got us an industry leading contract after an indusrty leading strike..

Mark,

The John Ward APFA saved my seniority. What I liked about that was that they polled us BEFORE they made that move. Those days are over.

Tell me what they have done that has been beneficial to us from the time Tommie got into office until now, aside from 8 hours and the jumpseat.

We got a bunch of side letters of agreement and "tests" that have been no good for MOST of us.

The issue I have is that they don't demand anything from the company. They just seem to go along with whatever the company is looking to get over on us with.

IF they were doing the job a good union does then the bag tags would unify us. Pissing away our money and making agreements to wipe the company's butt is not exactly unifying.

You also have to understand that the previous two contracts have been negotiated during better financial times.

I'm not expecting the moon in negotiations. I just don't want them giving anything else up.

But my like or dislike of the APFA has nothing to do with this thread.

What APFA should be doing is proactively trying to figure out if there will be anymore job threats after this one and warning us about them.

No offense to the furloughs too, the constitution needs to be changed. I really don't want to have to deal with people voting on my next contract who are not active employees. I don't want any possible bitterness sabotaging any part of my contract.

 

[L1011Ret]

I think it means add 5 years to the employee's age and 5 years to their length of service to get them to retire. This would have minimal to no benefit to most flight attendants. According to last October's updated seniority list, there are 2619 f/as who will have 30 years of seniority (or more) by the end of 2009. The ones who have 30+ (there are 555 who have 40 or more years) are perfectly happy in their work, and probably have no desire to retire.

Assuming that those with 30+ started right out of college (AA never hired less than age 19 or 20), 5 years would just barely make them eligible for early retirement (age 55). Why not just work until the actual age 55?
This is not the economy to be out looking for a job if one does not have to be looking.

Anyone with less than 30 years, 5&5 would still not put many of them in the eligible range for retirement.

If aafsc was referring to the former TW f/as currently on the payroll, he needs to remember that they were given full credit for their TW years for payroll and pension service purposes. If 5 years made any difference to them, they would already be retired.

The f/a pension is so relatively small that most f/as can not afford to retire until they are also eligible for full Social Security. For a lot of us that age has already receded to 66, and for some currently on the payroll it's even higher.

The TWAers get no credit for pension prior to 4/10/01.

 

[nbmcg01]

Mark,

The John Ward APFA saved my seniority. What I liked about that was that they polled us BEFORE they made that move. Those days are over.

Tell me what they have done that has been beneficial to us from the time Tommie got into office until now, aside from 8 hours and the jumpseat.

We got a bunch of side letters of agreement and "tests" that have been no good for MOST of us.

The issue I have is that they don't demand anything from the company. They just seem to go along with whatever the company is looking to get over on us with.

IF they were doing the job a good union does then the bag tags would unify us. Pissing away our money and making agreements to wipe the company's butt is not exactly unifying.

You also have to understand that the previous two contracts have been negotiated during better financial times.

I'm not expecting the moon in negotiations. I just don't want them giving anything else up.

But my like or dislike of the APFA has nothing to do with this thread.

What APFA should be doing is proactively trying to figure out if there will be anymore job threats after this one and warning us about them.

No offense to the furloughs too, the constitution needs to be changed. I really don't want to have to deal with people voting on my next contract who are not active employees. I don't want any possible bitterness sabotaging any part of my contract.

Those furloughed aren't going to sabotage anything they might have to live with BUT they will expect some LPPs like "me too" with the pilots re: recall and the restoration of furlough pay. Those at the bottom are well aware of the needs of the every day f/as. To change the C&B at the point in time would produce the biggest DFR this Union could ever imagine. They don't have enough money to fight that one. Oh yes, they could raise the dues.

 

[nbmcg01]

The TWAers get no credit for pension prior to 4/10/01.

I'm living high on the hog with that $90 a month I get from AA.

 

[L1011Ret]

I'm living high on the hog with that $90 a month I get from AA.

NBM, would you please send me a copy of that Educational Document you have posted else where? It might prove very useful in the future. Thanks, WC

 

[nbmcg01]

NBM, would you please send me a copy of that Educational Document you have posted else where? It might prove very useful in the future. Thanks, WC

Can't you print it off the other site?
email me where you want it sent. Nancy

 

[Maark767]

I'm living high on the hog with that $90 a month I get from AA.

Well you only worked for AA for a few years what do you expect???....... Do you expect to receive a full pension for only being here a short amount of time???? You worked your whole career at TWA thats where your pension is... A pension is earned not just handed over...

 

[nbmcg01]

Well you only worked for AA for a few years what do you expect???....... Do you expect to receive a full pension for only being here a short amount of time???? You worked your whole career at TWA thats where your pension is... A pension is earned not just handed over...

Absolutely not. But I do expect the APFA to educate its member that STILL think we have come to rape and pillage the retirement coffers. I also expected to fly for another 10 years and finish my long and stellar career, proud of the. work I had done, the airline I represented, and the union I supported.

I was simply making the point that we have received nothing more than what we were able to earn and even that is begrudged by many.

I became (not by choice) an employee of the formerly world largest airline, you know 2 great airlines, one great future, in 2001. It is now 2009. Yes, I had anticipated more than $99 a month. Don Carty and the AA BOD did not wake up one morning and say "Lets buy TWA". This was a project several years in the making, with financial decisions being driven to make the acquisition pass the scrutiny of the Feds et al. We were all duped

 

[Maark767]

Absolutely not. But I do expect the APFA to educate its member that STILL think we have come to rape and pillage the retirement coffers. I also expected to fly for another 10 years and finish my long and stellar career, proud of the. work I had done, the airline I represented, and the union I supported.

I was simply making the point that we have received nothing more than what we were able to earn and even that is begrudged by many.

I became (not by choice) an employee of the formerly world largest airline, you know 2 great airlines, one great future, in 2001. It is now 2009. Yes, I had anticipated more than $99 a month. Don Carty and the AA BOD did not wake up one morning and say "Lets buy TWA". This was a project several years in the making, with financial decisions being driven to make the acquisition pass the scrutiny of the Feds et al. We were all duped

We would both agree that things would have been alot different had 9/11 not happened ... 2 great airlines, one great future, in 2001. ... I know the game plan was to be played out alot differently. But here we are today... I wish you luck....

 

[nbmcg01]

We would both agree that things would have been alot different had 9/11 not happened ... 2 great airlines, one great future, in 2001. ... I know the game plan was to be played out alot differently. But here we are today... I wish you luck....

There is only so much that can be blamed on 9-11. Unfortunately, I think this was "the plan" from the beginning. Funny how these things seem to happen during negotiations. The first order of business should be to negotiate that no AA flight can be flown by any f/a not represented by the APFA. Tighten the SCOPE or force AA to mirror the contract at all of the foreign national bases. In 2009 the SCOPE should absolutely protect the US workers and AA should do as other carriers have done and close the foreign bases. (we lost foreign nationals in the mid seventies) Job protection is job one for any union and you all should be very well versed in your SCOPE provisions. But given the apathy (as demonstrated by the recent union vote) I doubt if 1/4 of the AA f/as could define SCOPE.

 

[STAAPLED]

Mark,

The John Ward APFA "saved" my seniority...............
No offense to the furloughs too, the constitution needs to be changed. I really don't want to have to deal with people voting on my next contract who are not active employees. I don't want any possible bitterness sabotaging any part of my contract.

1) Sorry dear, but APFA "saved" your seniority by stealing it from other people.

2) And so sorry if you are bothered by those horrible "bitter" people who have lost their careers. I think what bothers you is the fact that anyone who has lost their job and might be voting on "your" next contract, is just a guilty reminder of how horrible you have treated your fellow union members.

When it's all said and done, the APFA will have been on the wrong side of history when it comes to the story of what was done to the former TWA flight attendants. For me personally, it's not really a matter of trying to "get over it", as much as having to live with the consequences of a horrible union injustice. Shame on the APFA.

 

[Maark767]

1) Sorry dear, but APFA "saved" your seniority by stealing it from other people.

2) And so sorry if you are bothered by those horrible "bitter" people who have lost their careers. I think what bothers you is the fact that anyone who has lost their job and might be voting on "your" next contract, is just a guilty reminder of how horrible you have treated your fellow union members.

When it's all said and done, the APFA will have been on the wrong side of history when it comes to the story of what was done to the former TWA flight attendants. For me personally, it's not really a matter of trying to "get over it", as much as having to live with the consequences of a horrible union injustice. Shame on the APFA.

Thats how you see it... I see it differently...... I came from another airline and started at the bottom with AA like many of us here at AA. No senority, No pay, No 4 weeks VC.
The plan was back in 2001 to continue to grow.... 9/11 changed all that. You'd still would be here otherwise. The plan was not to lay off all TWA F/As . AA had a big growth plan in place but things changed... Good luck to all....

 

[Skymess]

1) Sorry dear, but APFA "saved" your seniority by stealing it from other people.

2) And so sorry if you are bothered by those horrible "bitter" people who have lost their careers. I think what bothers you is the fact that anyone who has lost their job and might be voting on "your" next contract, is just a guilty reminder of how horrible you have treated your fellow union members.

When it's all said and done, the APFA will have been on the wrong side of history when it comes to the story of what was done to the former TWA flight attendants. For me personally, it's not really a matter of trying to "get over it", as much as having to live with the consequences of a horrible union injustice. Shame on the APFA.

Whatever you want to think, I got what I wanted. I'm glad your screen name is true.

You're right, I don't want anyone bitter voting on my contract.

I'm sorry that you're bitter and under the mistaken belief that we're all one big giant airline out there ready to merge seniority. I guess you found out otherwise huh? History will show nothing but that our union was actually protecting its dues paying members and it was all down hill from there.

 

[nbmcg01]

Thats how you see it... I see it differently...... I came from another airline and started at the bottom with AA like many of us here at AA. No seniority, No pay, No 4 weeks VC.
The plan was back in 2001 to continue to grow.... 9/11 changed all that. You'd still would be here otherwise. The plan was not to lay off all TWA F/As . AA had a big growth plan in place but things changed... Good luck to all....

I came to TWA from PanAm and certainly didn't expect to bring my seniority, pay, vacation. It was MY choice to join TWA. However, I think the reason the former TWA f/as have such a hard time with the staple is the "do unto others" philosophy. We did the right thing with our acquisition of OZ. The ratio was surprisingly similar and we had the added burden of nearly 5000 f/as locked out from out strike. BUT, we gave DOH because it was the right thing to do and followed the tenets of past labor mergers and acquisitions. I remained locked out for an additional year because of this decision. And, I can honestly say I do not know of one former TWA f/a that begrudges our OZ peers one day of their seniority. As you know, I always said DOH would not have been appropriate at the time of the AA-TWA acquisition because we were top heavy in seniority. BUT, a 4 (of yours) to 1 (of ours) would have been the right thing to do. Too late for me, but it isn't for the rest of you. Only time, honor, and negotiations will tell... Unfortunately, it will never be over.

 

[conniegirl]

Whatever you want to think, I got what I wanted. I'm glad your screen name is true.

You're right, I don't want anyone bitter voting on my contract.

I'm sorry that you're bitter and under the mistaken belief that we're all one big giant airline out there ready to merge seniority. I guess you found out otherwise huh? History will show nothing but that our union was actually protecting its dues paying members and it was all down hill from there.

]
We WERE dues paying members of that same "Union".