F/A Furlough

[aafsc]

<_< ------ Again aa!! Why TWA? Why did AA go through all that trouble to acquire a "worthless," "failed", "virus stricken" Airline? Why aa? -----It was because, "at the time," AA thought they needed us!------- And no, things didn't turn out like AA thought! But then who could have predicted 9/11?----- Could TWA have survived that? Probably not! But we'll never know for sure, now will we?------ As for that TWA management type who got TWA into the Karabu agreement, yea! I agree, he should have been horse whipped! Now your trying to tell me AA doesn't have that type of idiot in their top management? ------- Now, tell me aa, how did aa acquire those profitable South American EAL routes? AA bought them right? (Good move!)----- Now, tell me, how did AA acquire the TWA LHR routes? AA bought them! (Also a Good move!)

Again, AA didn't acquire, purchase, or merge with TWA; they bought TWA's assets in a bankruptcy liquidation which allowed them to avoid being infected. AA has a pretty effective legal department and I doubt it was as much "trouble" as you make it out to be. Given the statements made by TWA senior management in a court of law about how they had only a couple of days of cash left, they would have had to shut the doors well before 9/11; they were extremely desperate and AA offered the best deal. AA felt they had to respond to the proposed US/UA merger. They were holding talks with NW in the hopes of reaching a merger agreement with them. NW pacific routes and NRT hub would have been a sweet addition to the AA route map. AA really wanted NW but the price NW was asking was way to high for AA so they had to settle for sloppy seconds (very sloppy seconds-TWA). Thus they were able to maintain close to the same market share as a combined UA/US. But we all know the history since 9/11. In hindsight, it would have been better to just let TWA close the doors AND THEN take what they wanted WITHOUT the people even if it meant bidding against others for the few assets. CO offered about $450 million for the LGA slots. It would have been cheaper for AA to outbid CO (say $500 million) maybe $200 million for the DCA and JFK slots. So AA would have spent $700 million which is far cheaper than the cash it paid plus the assumption of billions in leases, liabilities, and retiree medical for TWA retirees. AA could have increased it's flights in STL to present levels at little cost. But AA would have saved hundreds of millions by hiring off the street instead of taking the TWA people in at top industry pay with all the associated headaches.

With LHR, yeah, AA bought those routes in 1991 and it was a good move but you TWAers lucked out in that 10 years later, AA picked up the rest of TWA's assets in a bankruptcy auction and gave your ungrateful carcases top pay and benefits; EAL people weren't as lucky.

 

[Royal Ambassador]

aafsc, if you are so smart, why are you only a lowly fleet service clerk and not the ceo or a high ranking executive of the airline?

 

[Ralph]

:cop: MODERATOR WARNING :cop:

Do NOT turn this thread into another rehash of the AA-TWA purchase/merger/ham sandwich or whatever you want to call it. Also, be very careful of the personal comments. Discuss the issues, not each other.

If you are incapable of discussing the furloughs and can not stay off old, dead subjects, the thread will be closed.

 

[aafsc]

aafsc, if you are so smart, why are you only a lowly fleet service clerk and not the ceo or a high ranking executive of the airline?

Why am I "only a lowly fleet service clerk"? Because I choose to be. About 15 years ago, I considered applying for a management job at AA. I took a trip to HDQ to get an idea of what it was like. After speaking to a few who used to work there and seeing many get axed, I decided against it. Regardless of what you think of Arpey, he is living proof that you can go from the ramp to CEO (He worked the DL ramp during his college years). Everyone is free to post their thoughts, opinions, observations, and analysis on the happenings in this industry regardless of job title.

 

[aredeeyou22]

It would be nice to put more limits on their non-home country flying. Maybe limit the departures to one flight a day to and from their home country and MIA. Also, discontinue the MIA-central america flying. That would give a few more jobs back to us. Or better yet, make AA put them on our seniority list and force them to join the union. There should still be limits to how much flying each foreign base could fly, but at least any future new hire would be at risk of being furloughed in any future down turn.

Or maybe it would be nice to actually hire people in the US to fly American Airlines trips. Or maybe, it would be nice to hire people at equal wages, throughout the network.

Force them to join the union? You have people, outside the country, doing your work for less wages. And the APFA is okay with that, with TWA at the bottom on the street...

And people laugh at AFA? As sad as it was that UA had foreign nationals, at LEAST they had a contract that furloughed all of them before anyone in the US.

 

[twaokc]

Again, AA didn't acquire, purchase, or merge with TWA; they bought TWA's assets in a bankruptcy liquidation which allowed them to avoid being infected. AA has a pretty effective legal department and I doubt it was as much "trouble" as you make it out to be. Given the statements made by TWA senior management in a court of law about how they had only a couple of days of cash left, they would have had to shut the doors well before 9/11; they were extremely desperate and AA offered the best deal. AA felt they had to respond to the proposed US/UA merger. They were holding talks with NW in the hopes of reaching a merger agreement with them. NW pacific routes and NRT hub would have been a sweet addition to the AA route map. AA really wanted NW but the price NW was asking was way to high for AA so they had to settle for sloppy seconds (very sloppy seconds-TWA). Thus they were able to maintain close to the same market share as a combined UA/US. But we all know the history since 9/11. In hindsight, it would have been better to just let TWA close the doors AND THEN take what they wanted WITHOUT the people even if it meant bidding against others for the few assets. CO offered about $450 million for the LGA slots. It would have been cheaper for AA to outbid CO (say $500 million) maybe $200 million for the DCA and JFK slots. So AA would have spent $700 million which is far cheaper than the cash it paid plus the assumption of billions in leases, liabilities, and retiree medical for TWA retirees. AA could have increased it's flights in STL to present levels at little cost. But AA would have saved hundreds of millions by hiring off the street instead of taking the TWA people in at top industry pay with all the associated headaches.

With LHR, yeah, AA bought those routes in 1991 and it was a good move but you TWAers lucked out in that 10 years later, AA picked up the rest of TWA's assets in a bankruptcy auction and gave your ungrateful carcases top pay and benefits; EAL people weren't as lucky.

 

[twaokc]

Again, AA didn't acquire, purchase, or merge with TWA

Carty and Compton, both called it a merger.

 

[aafsc]

Or maybe it would be nice to actually hire people in the US to fly American Airlines trips. Or maybe, it would be nice to hire people at equal wages, throughout the network.

Force them to join the union? You have people, outside the country, doing your work for less wages. And the APFA is okay with that, with TWA at the bottom on the street...

And people laugh at AFA? As sad as it was that UA had foreign nationals, at LEAST they had a contract that furloughed all of them before anyone in the US.

In addition to the South American governments' requirement that AA had to hire the former EAL South American F/As, I believe that those F/As also have their own unions with contractual agreements with AA.

 

[L1011Ret]

Again, AA didn't acquire, purchase, or merge with TWA; they bought TWA's assets in a bankruptcy liquidation which allowed them to avoid being infected. AA has a pretty effective legal department and I doubt it was as much "trouble" as you make it out to be. Given the statements made by TWA senior management in a court of law about how they had only a couple of days of cash left, they would have had to shut the doors well before 9/11; they were extremely desperate and AA offered the best deal. AA felt they had to respond to the proposed US/UA merger. They were holding talks with NW in the hopes of reaching a merger agreement with them. NW pacific routes and NRT hub would have been a sweet addition to the AA route map. AA really wanted NW but the price NW was asking was way to high for AA so they had to settle for sloppy seconds (very sloppy seconds-TWA). Thus they were able to maintain close to the same market share as a combined UA/US. But we all know the history since 9/11. In hindsight, it would have been better to just let TWA close the doors AND THEN take what they wanted WITHOUT the people even if it meant bidding against others for the few assets. CO offered about $450 million for the LGA slots. It would have been cheaper for AA to outbid CO (say $500 million) maybe $200 million for the DCA and JFK slots. So AA would have spent $700 million which is far cheaper than the cash it paid plus the assumption of billions in leases, liabilities, and retiree medical for TWA retirees. AA could have increased it's flights in STL to present levels at little cost. But AA would have saved hundreds of millions by hiring off the street instead of taking the TWA people in at top industry pay with all the associated headaches.

With LHR, yeah, AA bought those routes in 1991 and it was a good move but you TWAers lucked out in that 10 years later, AA picked up the rest of TWA's assets in a bankruptcy auction and gave your ungrateful carcases top pay and benefits; EAL people weren't as lucky.

Your "factual" knowledge is so wrong you need a reality check.

 

[Bob Owens]

Again, AA didn't acquire, purchase, or merge with TWA; they bought TWA's assets in a bankruptcy liquidation which allowed them to avoid being infected.

AMR Purchased TWA, they aquired not only the assetts but also most of the liabilities and debt. From what I recall TWA filed for bankruptcy protection in order to shed the onerous Karabu contract and came out as an AMR subsidiary called TWA-LLC. On 4-10-01 TWA-LLC was merged with AMRs AA. I dont recall TWA ever being liquidated, they continued operating, first as TWA-LLC then they were merged into AA, which then shed most of the assets. I dont remember ever seeing video of TWA passengers stranded at a terminal because the company liquidated and ceased operations.

One question I have is was there ever an actual vote put forward to the membership at TWA to dovetail OZ? One former TWA FA commented about how the OZ merger meant that she had to stay out an extra year,so did she/he vote to dovetail or was that decided by her union?

Even if there was a vote back in 1986 the industry was expanding. Everybody was hiring, except maybe TWA because they picked up workers with the purchase of OZ. So if a few people went ahead of you due to a merger it wasnt as big of a deal as it was in 2001 when the industry started contracting. What I'm getting at is there really anyone out there from TWA who can honestly say that if the tables were turned that they would be willing to say "Sure, dovetail them in and let me go out and look for another job in a declining economy"?

Here we are eight years later and the company is still looking to cut heads. The AA workers who voted against Dovetail didnt do it to screw the TWA workers, they did it to protect themselves. Was it a noble act? No. Was it an evil selfish act? No. Few people are willing to throw themselves in front of the bus for a complete stranger, self preservation is a powerful part of human nature. Those who chose AA to work for simply were lucky in that they picked the employer that stayed in business.

I dont agree with those who trash TWA workers because I look at it from the perspective of "There but for the Grace of God go I" but enough is enough, whats done is done and we are not going to change it. Instead we should find common ground and work together to make things better, we dont work for seniority, we work for pay and benefits and we need be united to fight the company for that.

 

[FA Mikey]

Wait a minute, AA is allowed to furlough "real" flight attendants before getting rid of the foreign nationals? People in LGA BOS DCA etc will be walking out the door before FA's in So. America? Or have the foreign nationals already been let go in previous layoffs?

Shocks me that APFA would allow foreign nationals in the first place....

Like the Unions at Eastern and Braniff before them.

 

[MCI transplant]

AMR Purchased TWA, they aquired not only the assetts but also most of the liabilities and debt. From what I recall TWA filed for bankruptcy protection in order to shed the onerous Karabu contract and came out as an AMR subsidiary called TWA-LLC. On 4-10-01 TWA-LLC was merged with AMRs AA. I dint recall TWA ever being liquidated, they continued operating, first as TWA-LLC then they were merged into AA, which then shed most of the assets.

One question I have is was there ever an actual vote put forward to the membership at TWA to dovetail OZ?

<_< ------- To my reticulation, I don't think there was Bob! Just the opposite! I believe Ichan tryed to hire them on at the bottom of the wage scale, and the Union told him "NO WAY!" and it didn't happen!

 

[Ralph]

When you are ready to discuss the flight attendant furloughs, you may start a new thread. This one is closed. If the AA/TWA combination back and forth gets started again by any of you, there will be vacations from access to the board awarded. A word to the wise...

This thread is closed.