F/A Furlough

[FrequentFlierCA]

How totally sad for the FAs who will lose their incomes. Personally I was hoping the VBRs and flex schedules/job sharing would be enough.

Just one more sign of the airline apocalypse, I suppose.

 

[youbetcha]

AA purchased the assets of TWA in 2001. Neither you nor I had any choice. They(AA) continued to hire and train after the purchase. Yes, I absolutely have a problem with those persons having more seniority. Laura Gladding was at the table, period. She makes no bones about it. Had I been negotiating the RPA every concession would have been contingient on a no furlough clause ESPECIALLY if some sort of slotting had been done. Now, you know that I never suggested DOH when we were acquired. But slotting not only would have been appropriate but would have also followed the provisions that every other labor union has followed including the APFA up to the acquisition of RENO. Believe me, none of us were thrilled with the acquisition (on both sides) but it did happen. It is a shame that LPPs were not kept in place to avoid this recall-furlough-recall merry go round.
I'm lucky in the respect that I have my $99 a month retirement, have a decent job, and can arm chair quarterback the potential for disaster of ongoing negotiations.
And whether you like it or agree with it, the primary purpose of a union is to preserve jobs. Quality of life contract enhancements are secondary. By the way, how are those working for you?

YOU would have negotiated a no furlough clause? Really. And what would those 4000 plus FAs have been flying with no cockpit to fly with due to their furloughs? Pilots and FAs do have to match up somewhat. You can't have all those FAS if you don't have the pilots, mechanics, airplanes, etc.
And don't even think of citing the infamous Sherry Cooper proposal. That thing was so full of holes and inaccuracies not the least of which was selling the 777 Arbitration Award which would have been an illegal act. That award, won by APFA, was worth $9-$10 Million but it was awarded to the FAS that were harmed, not to APFA.

You sound just like the people who say they would have demanded snapbacks. Guess what. Everyone did. The answer was no. That happens. I'm sure you would have demanded that TWA not be sold or go under either. YOU do not have the power.

Also, TWA lives in a glass house when it comes to furloughing FAs repeatedly. Wasn't it the practice at TWA to hire "summer help"? We used to hear the horror stories about how many summers it would take until a TWA FA became permanent. Were those just urban legend?

The vast majority of these people being furloughed are outstanding individuals. Again, our problems seem to be coming from those who are no longer employed or who stated publicly, they don't have to work.

I hate that we are furloughing. It is truly a sad time for all. Furloughing also puts so much strain on negotiations.

As to quality of work life, we are still better off than most. We have a pension, we have health insurance, duty rigs, the ability to extend and get paid for trips missed on VC, incentive pay, no preferential bidding, full pay for sick calls, to name a few. We always want more and deserve more.

 

[kirkpatrick]

100-150 of the former TWA flight attendants should not be getting furlough letters this round. I thought that those in ORD were in the first groups recalled and less likely to be on the furlough list. What is the total number of former TWA flight attendants now based in ORD?

The Bid Awards Table from the Flight Service website shows 86 former TWA FA's in ORD.

Here are some preliminary numbers:

Senior FA receiving letter - 16812

BOS - 62
BOI - 3
DCA - 45
JFK - 6
LGA - 249
DFW - 3
MIA - 1
LAX - 1
ORD - 38
STL - 2

I'm one of the LGA people, 76 from the top (senior) of those getting letters.

MK

 

[FWAAA]

How totally sad for the FAs who will lose their incomes. Personally I was hoping the VBRs and flex schedules/job sharing would be enough.

Just one more sign of the airline apocalypse, I suppose.

The noon news here in LA reported that the APFA is still holding out hope that more FAs will accept alternatives to furlough (leaves, job-sharing, etc) which might minimize the number actually furloughed.

Anyone - is that possible?

 

[Flyboy4u]

I seriously doubt that it is possible for more leaves to happen, however Partnership flying might be the answer to mitigate some of the furloughs, but I would doubt it will take care of all of them. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but in this last round of leaves that were offered, I don't remember partnership flying being offered? I do know quite a few senior f/a's who would have liked this option. I hope they will stand up now and take it.

Now my 2 cents, I am Disgusted how the posts on this board continue to be about TWA vs AA. This is no longer the case, nor has been the case, since the acquisiton of TWA. Whether you agree with the takeover, or disagree with it, that is in the past. What Does concern me is the lack of all of us, as one entity FA's at AA, coming together as a group to fight the current round of possible furloughs. In my opinion, there is only one group who is at fault for this disgusting behavior, the APFA. This is no more a union, but instead, a money hungry business trying to survive in these turbulant times. Keep in mind, many of us N"AA"tives included were furloughed back in 2003. Some of us twice. Since then the company has continued the downsizing of our collective workforce with not even a sliver from the APFA trying to fight it. Yes, I know...the good "ole" union is trying with the spending of dues money making those "effective" bag tags etc...If there was ever a time in the history of AA to stand up now is the chance..Please put the bickering back and forth about who the best company is and lets work together to find a solution this horrible dilemma.

 

[butchord45]

I seriously doubt that it is possible for more leaves to happen, however Partnership flying might be the answer to mitigate some of the furloughs, but I would doubt it will take care of all of them. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but in this last round of leaves that were offered, I don't remember partnership flying being offered? I do know quite a few senior f/a's who would have liked this option. I hope they will stand up now and take it.

Now my 2 cents, I am Disgusted how the posts on this board continue to be about TWA vs AA. This is no longer the case, nor has been the case, since the acquisiton of TWA. Whether you agree with the takeover, or disagree with it, that is in the past. What Does concern me is the lack of all of us, as one entity FA's at AA, coming together as a group to fight the current round of possible furloughs. In my opinion, there is only one group who is at fault for this disgusting behavior, the APFA. This is no more a union, but instead, a money hungry business trying to survive in these turbulant times. Keep in mind, many of us N"AA"tives included were furloughed back in 2003. Some of us twice. Since then the company has continued the downsizing of our collective workforce with not even a sliver from the APFA trying to fight it. Yes, I know...the good "ole" union is trying with the spending of dues money making those "effective" bag tags etc...If there was ever a time in the history of AA to stand up now is the chance..Please put the bickering back and forth about who the best company is and lets work together to find a solution this horrible dilemma.

While I sympathize with those who may get furloughed. I really don't understand the barking about furlough pay. So we get to go to work because of our seniority, yet those who get furloughed should get pay for sitting at home?????? WHAT???? Sounds like the tax rebates in the stimulus package for people who don't pay taxes. WHAT????

If there was furlough pay ....it would come out of the "pie" allocated to the flight attendants. So in effect it would be diminishing pay for working flight attendants.....so please tell me why furlough pay is a good idea.

Thank you.
Butch

 

[Royal Ambassador]

The noon news here in LA reported that the APFA is still holding out hope that more FAs will accept alternatives to furlough (leaves, job-sharing, etc) which might minimize the number actually furloughed.

Anyone - is that possible?

It hasn't even been a month since the VP of Flight Service announced that the response to the previous leaves and job sharing offer fell shot of the numbers needed, but was sufficiently close to avoid furloughs. If anything, with the rapidly deteriorating state of the economy, it is highly doubtful that there will be more than just a few takers.

This is Lauri Curtis, and today is Wednesday, January 28, 2009.

Let me get right to the great news: we were once again able to award enough voluntary options in order to avoid any furloughs. Although we fell slightly short of our near-term headcount targets, we will be offering monthly Bid Leaves and additional Vacation slots to offset the remaining short-term overage.

 

[nbmcg01]

The funny thing is...

You're the only one who believes Laura Glading gave away furlough pay. John Ward was the APFA President in 2003 and was the lead negotiator at the TABLE! Regarding your safe guards with concessions... NO MORE CONCESSIONS!

Please get your facts correct before posting. You're making yourself look like a FOOL!

John Ward was the leader abnd I certainly hold him responsible but Laura was at the table. Get your facts straight. And, I am certainly not the only one that is aware of this. Ask Laura. If she has one iota of integrity she'll say she was there.. She may try and tap dance around her roll but....

 

[nbmcg01]

YOU would have negotiated a no furlough clause? Really. And what would those 4000 plus FAs have been flying with no cockpit to fly with due to their furloughs? Pilots and FAs do have to match up somewhat. You can't have all those FAS if you don't have the pilots, mechanics, airplanes, etc.
And don't even think of citing the infamous Sherry Cooper proposal. That thing was so full of holes and inaccuracies not the least of which was selling the 777 Arbitration Award which would have been an illegal act. That award, won by APFA, was worth $9-$10 Million but it was awarded to the FAS that were harmed, not to APFA.

You sound just like the people who say they would have demanded snapbacks. Guess what. Everyone did. The answer was no. That happens. I'm sure you would have demanded that TWA not be sold or go under either. YOU do not have the power.

Also, TWA lives in a glass house when it comes to furloughing FAs repeatedly. Wasn't it the practice at TWA to hire "summer help"? We used to hear the horror stories about how many summers it would take until a TWA FA became permanent. Were those just urban legend?

The vast majority of these people being furloughed are outstanding individuals. Again, our problems seem to be coming from those who are no longer employed or who stated publicly, they don't have to work.

I hate that we are furloughing. It is truly a sad time for all. Furloughing also puts so much strain on negotiations.

As to quality of work life, we are still better off than most. We have a pension, we have health insurance, duty rigs, the ability to extend and get paid for trips missed on VC, incentive pay, no preferential bidding, full pay for sick calls, to name a few. We always want more and deserve more.

I would have negotiated in the press. I would have said, "I am willing to give you $340,000,000, however, you don't get to decide the concessions nor their value." Why, because base value is established at the time an item is negotiated. And, I certainly would not have allowed an extension when the f/as voted "no". And then I would have said, "Call me when you're serious about negotiations".

F/as are one of the least expensive work forces on the property. If you're serious about market share you provide the BEST service product for a fair value. You don't cut your front line employees and use that money to "reward" your executives. As for having left, I had little choice. The SIA was not honored with our ability to return to STL. My son is paralyzed and I would have been unable to be based in BOS, DCA, or LGA. Was senior enough to go to ORD but not offered out of recall training. Also, a quote of $4500 a month for insurance was a pretty good reason to leave a profession that I loved and was very good at for 35 years.

The industry leading contract has much room for quality of life enhancements that are both cost neutral or even cost savings. Lets see how forward thing this union will be..

 

[Skymess]

I would have negotiated in the press. I would have said, "I am willing to give you $340,000,000, however, you don't get to decide the concessions nor their value." Why, because base value is established at the time an item is negotiated. And, I certainly would not have allowed an extension when the f/as voted "no". And then I would have said, "Call me when you're serious about negotiations".

F/as are one of the least expensive work forces on the property. If you're serious about market share you provide the BEST service product for a fair value. You don't cut your front line employees and use that money to "reward" your executives. .

The flaw in your logic is that there are too many of us. We're all sitting around on reserve watching the phone and there are no trips. People who have lines are stealing trips from each other and trolling through the bulletin board to snatch ANYTHING that anyone is dropping.

Why pay people not to work?

Rewarding management with bonuses when you're company is doing poorly is also wrong. One doesn't beget right through two wrongs.

I agre with Butch that the whole argument still raging between TWA and AA is really not helping ANY flight attendant. Whether or not any of the 2 groups despise each other, everyone still has to agree that the way the furloughs have been jerked around by the company and the APFA is despicably unsconscionable.

 

[BigBangTheory]

John Ward was the leader abnd I certainly hold him responsible but Laura was at the table. Get your facts straight. And, I am certainly not the only one that is aware of this. Ask Laura. If she has one iota of integrity she'll say she was there.. She may try and tap dance around her roll but....

My facts are straight, Nancy. You said Laura gave away furlough pay. When in fact, it was John Ward who did. Your logic and posts prove you have no clue and just want B&C about how the former TWA f/a's got "screwed."

 

[Skymess]

My facts are straight, Nancy. You said Laura gave away furlough pay. When in fact, it was John Ward who did. Your logic and posts prove you have no clue and just want B&C about how the former TWA f/a's got "screwed."

John Ward was our president when the F. pay was axed but this is a good example of how Laura gets caught up in her own fantasy web of being the super negotiator. She insists on taking credit for negotiating the Ward contract but backs away from any negative item that was negotiated.

 

[jimntx]

The flaw in your logic is that there are too many of us. We're all sitting around on reserve watching the phone and there are no trips. People who have lines are stealing trips from each other and trolling through the bulletin board to snatch ANYTHING that anyone is dropping.

Why pay people not to work?

Rewarding management with bonuses when you're company is doing poorly is also wrong. One doesn't beget right through two wrongs.

I agre with Butch that the whole argument still raging between TWA and AA is really not helping ANY flight attendant. Whether or not any of the 2 groups despise each other, everyone still has to agree that the way the furloughs have been jerked around by the company and the APFA is despicably unsconscionable.

The flaw in your logic is that furlough pay is paying people to not work. The purpose of furlough pay--which is a maximum of 2 month's base salary--is to discourage the company from furloughing people. If it costs them money to furlough you, they think twice about it.

Because we gave up furlough pay--which we will never get back--we have opened ourselves and our fellow union members to seasonal furloughs. Something other airlines and companies in other industries have done in the past. And it doesn't matter who did it. The fact that it was done is wrong. As it is I am only a little over 900 from the bottom of the active list. If all 410 are furloughed, I will be only about 500 from the bottom of the active list.

In real unions, all of the members are concerned about the welfare of all other members. In the APFA, if it doesn't affect people at your seniority or above, it is not an issue. And, when some of you slip back onto reserve because people junior to you in your base have been furloughed, I hope you will keep your moaning about your sad lot in life in check. Not caring about whether other people are furloughed means not caring about being on reserve. You can't have it both ways.

Besides I haven't noticed any of you being concerned before now about being on reserve or availability and not flying. In December and this month (I bid onto reserve in February), I did not even fly one month's guarantee. In the two months the sum of my GTD was 87 hours, but that included 15 hours of airport standby and 4.10 of special assignment credit. And, it wouldn't have been that high if I hadn't put myself on short call one day and managed to pick up a high time 3-day. I was talking to some DFW f/as yesterday. One of them said that the DFW-D reserves were flying an average of 35 hours/month. The bases where the furloughs will occur are not the bases where the serious overages exist.

We are already paying people to not fly. Furlough pay for 410 people would be a drop in the bucket.

While we are at it, you know I'm not one to say I told you so; semicolon however comma...

I said back in January that I thought the overage was more like 1000-1500, and you all told me I didn't know what I was talking about--that if the union and the company said 420, then 420 it is. Well, we mitigated those 420 furloughs in January with leaves and partnership flying, then almost 600 additional f/as went back out on leave 01FEB, and now we have an overage of 410. Let's see, 420+600+410 = 1430. I believe that falls between 1000 and 1500. As I said, it's a good thing that I'm not the type to say I told you so.

 

[jimntx]

John Ward was our president when the F. pay was axed but this is a good example of how Laura gets caught up in her own fantasy web of being the super negotiator. She insists on taking credit for negotiating the Ward contract but backs away from any negative item that was negotiated.

And, let's not forget that the entire BOD voted to present the concessions to a vote of the membership, and when the membership voted it down, the voting was reopened. Do any of you remember any members of the board who resigned in protest or even spoke up about the way the vote was reopened? I don't.

It doesn't matter now who negotiated that travesty. What matters now is we all have to live with it. And, I wouldn't count on the next round of negotiations getting us anything much better. In fact, I'm planning to retire at the end of January, 2012 when I get my 10 years. I do not believe for one second that a new contract will be in effect before then. How many years did it take to get the contract we approved in 2001?

 

[jimntx]

Well, while I'm monopolizing the bottom of the thread, I may as well post this. I emailed the contract department at the union about my question of the 60-day WARN act threshhold. (Though it's not contractual, the contract department also keeps track of legal obligations of the union and the company.)

Because the number to be furloughed is less than 500, the WARN act does not apply. I'm assuming that there is a similar threshhold with the New York law as well. It does not apply at all if the number to be laid off is less than 50. It applies for furloughs of 50-499 only if the number represents at least 30% of the affected workforce. 410 is only about 2% of the total "active" f/a workforce at AA.

Which really gives me pause. Look for a furlough announcement of another 400-499 f/as later on. My money is on the end of summer. In fact, considering the number of f/as who will be coming back on line this Spring and Summer from current LOAs, I would not be surprised if there is more than one additional announcement of 400-500 fa/s furloughed before the end of this year. I think the company has found a way to maximize their use of furloughs without running afoul of messy, intrusive things like the WARN act.

That's why they call me Little Mary Sunshine. When things look blackest, I'm always there with the voice of doom.