An interesting, yet unmentioned till this point, fact is that, at least in CS, according to our local management, WHQ sent down a directive 2weeks ago, since we were leading up to our annual vacation bid process, that summer and holiday vacation would be reduced. IE less lines offered on those weeks, and much of the extra capacity was pushed to Jan thru Mar. This will cause an effect where, if a higher percentage of your employees are forced to take vacations in the 1st quarter, and they are all giving up 4days of pay, it will create a rather large cash bubble. At least, that's what I think. I'm not sure if they did the same thing to maint or not, but, otoh, their numbers in comparison wouldn't have the impact that forcing 800 csr's into 1Q vaca's would have. That is 25,600 hours of payroll off the books..... just in DEN, just in CS. Think about it.
Engineered to fail?
- Thread starter kcabpilot
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #17
Yes, the vacation issue is probably about the most bizarre thing I have ever seen in a contract proposal. The idea that you must take 4 days without pay before you can use any of your vacation is well, just plain weird. Normally people will save up for a vacation because they are going to travel somewhere or do something special and this just seems like an extra burden, almost as though it was done through spite. They should have just done a straight wage cut, that’s what everyone I’m talking to says.
The other issue is the fact that the vote is being taken on the day before Thanksgiving. Many people simply aren’t going to be here to vote on that day.
Anyway, you can all placate yourselves as much as you want by comparing the results of the Pilot’s vote. I don’t see how that has anything to do with this. I think there is a very real possibility that this will get shot down by 141M. But in true IAM fashion, I’m sure the voting will continue until the results are correct.
atabuy:
You’ve got a good attitude and I wish you and your wife the best of luck. You are darn right there is a lot more in life than money. I think some of the people here have a very skewed opinion of me and my “attitudeâ€. They read a few posts and believe they have me all figured out. I think that some of them spend way, way too much time here.
The other issue is the fact that the vote is being taken on the day before Thanksgiving. Many people simply aren’t going to be here to vote on that day.
Anyway, you can all placate yourselves as much as you want by comparing the results of the Pilot’s vote. I don’t see how that has anything to do with this. I think there is a very real possibility that this will get shot down by 141M. But in true IAM fashion, I’m sure the voting will continue until the results are correct.
atabuy:
You’ve got a good attitude and I wish you and your wife the best of luck. You are darn right there is a lot more in life than money. I think some of the people here have a very skewed opinion of me and my “attitudeâ€. They read a few posts and believe they have me all figured out. I think that some of them spend way, way too much time here.
KCabpilot:
First, put your pent-up anger and emotions at the previous management on hold and try, just try, to analyze the new agreement. It says the first 32 hrs of DAT or PHOLS or any combinations thereof will be no pay. If you play it properly, you take a DAT day close to the time you receive your Retro pay. This will have minimal impact on your bottom line. For instance, on Dec. 15 you will receive a nice Retro payment. Take your 4 days in January and you are covered by the retro payment and the rest of the year when we get busy, you will be paid for your days off. Take them 1 a week and your paycheck will reflect only 2 days of NP. We also should ask an accountant if we can take the lost days pay as a deduction on our taxes.
If you find that you cannot get past your anger at the previous management and get on board with Mr. Tilton and the new UAL, then you should consider leaving the company. Holding onto you anger and hostility serves you no useful purpose and you end up shooting yourself in the foot. If you want to stay with the company, then vote to keep United out of bankruptcy court. The company has signed off on USC Section 1113 and 1114 which states they will not abbrogate the contracts if the company has to file BK.
I frankly believe this could have been a whole lot worse. The company gave a figure to the IAM and allowed them to work it the best they could. I happen to like the profit sharing and stock options provisions. Taken all-in-all, it is not bad and will get UAL past the slow winter season and ease us into the Spring and Summer markets when travel picks up. Mr. Tilton has already stated that UAL will begin earning a profit in 2004 when you begin getting increases again on top of your progressions.
First, put your pent-up anger and emotions at the previous management on hold and try, just try, to analyze the new agreement. It says the first 32 hrs of DAT or PHOLS or any combinations thereof will be no pay. If you play it properly, you take a DAT day close to the time you receive your Retro pay. This will have minimal impact on your bottom line. For instance, on Dec. 15 you will receive a nice Retro payment. Take your 4 days in January and you are covered by the retro payment and the rest of the year when we get busy, you will be paid for your days off. Take them 1 a week and your paycheck will reflect only 2 days of NP. We also should ask an accountant if we can take the lost days pay as a deduction on our taxes.
If you find that you cannot get past your anger at the previous management and get on board with Mr. Tilton and the new UAL, then you should consider leaving the company. Holding onto you anger and hostility serves you no useful purpose and you end up shooting yourself in the foot. If you want to stay with the company, then vote to keep United out of bankruptcy court. The company has signed off on USC Section 1113 and 1114 which states they will not abbrogate the contracts if the company has to file BK.
I frankly believe this could have been a whole lot worse. The company gave a figure to the IAM and allowed them to work it the best they could. I happen to like the profit sharing and stock options provisions. Taken all-in-all, it is not bad and will get UAL past the slow winter season and ease us into the Spring and Summer markets when travel picks up. Mr. Tilton has already stated that UAL will begin earning a profit in 2004 when you begin getting increases again on top of your progressions.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #21
novaqt:
Now, see what I mean - what pent-up anger? Do you mean a person cannot be critical of a lousy agreement without being labeled a ranter? Also, bear in mind that I'm here to express my opinion on the matter. I'm not looking for advice on how to vote. Heck, in 14 years with this company I've never voted YES on anything.
As for taking a tax deduction for the days of no pay: Jeez dude, if you don't get the money why would you pay tax on it? I think you're missing something.
Now, see what I mean - what pent-up anger? Do you mean a person cannot be critical of a lousy agreement without being labeled a ranter? Also, bear in mind that I'm here to express my opinion on the matter. I'm not looking for advice on how to vote. Heck, in 14 years with this company I've never voted YES on anything.
As for taking a tax deduction for the days of no pay: Jeez dude, if you don't get the money why would you pay tax on it? I think you're missing something.
kcabpilot,thanks for posting your opinion.we dont live
in iraq and even though im voting for the agreement i
respect your questioning of the wisdom of certain aspects
of this turd in the puchbowl.on the ground where the rubber
meets the road i see no change in ual absolutely none.i think
a lot of people are praising mr.tilton prematurely we really
havent seen anything that improves our quality of life as
employee owners of this company.its just to early for me
anyway to join the tiilton love fest.the agreement is to long
for one thing if ual starts making money it seems to me i
would rather have my profit sharing paid to me bi-weekly
in the form of a payraise i can save myself.my other complaint
is people are being paid to stay home because of parking
planes why is that??if you dont have seniority to stay you
should be laid off.one employee group was offered furloughs
with full medical and flying priveleges.medical insurance isnt
free is it??my point is that if we are in such trouble and i think
we are why are other groups being asked to subsidize these
sweatheart deals?? please continue to raise questions remember
this is a free society.
in iraq and even though im voting for the agreement i
respect your questioning of the wisdom of certain aspects
of this turd in the puchbowl.on the ground where the rubber
meets the road i see no change in ual absolutely none.i think
a lot of people are praising mr.tilton prematurely we really
havent seen anything that improves our quality of life as
employee owners of this company.its just to early for me
anyway to join the tiilton love fest.the agreement is to long
for one thing if ual starts making money it seems to me i
would rather have my profit sharing paid to me bi-weekly
in the form of a payraise i can save myself.my other complaint
is people are being paid to stay home because of parking
planes why is that??if you dont have seniority to stay you
should be laid off.one employee group was offered furloughs
with full medical and flying priveleges.medical insurance isnt
free is it??my point is that if we are in such trouble and i think
we are why are other groups being asked to subsidize these
sweatheart deals?? please continue to raise questions remember
this is a free society.
[blockquote]
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novaqt said
The company has signed off on USC Section 1113 and 1114 which states they will not abbrogate the contracts if the company has to file BK.
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[/blockquote]
Here is the language on BK.
If the Company or UAL Corporation nonetheless files a petition for reorganization under Chapter 11, neither the Company nor UAL will file or support any motion or proceeding under any provision of 11 U.S.C. §§1113 or 1114 with respect to the District 141M collective bargaining agreements during the period between December 1, 2002 and November 30, 2003.
Notwithstanding the commitment contained in the foregoing paragraph, in the
event the Company’s operating cash flow substantially and adversely deviates from the Company’s October 2002 ATSB business plan for a ninety (90) day period, and such deviation presents a threat to the Company’s future liquidity, the Company will provide the Union with notice and a full opportunity to discuss possible remedies to the cash flow shortfall. If discussions between the Company and the Union do not produce a mutually acceptable resolution of the liquidity threat within sixty (60) days of such notice, the commitment contained in the preceding paragraph will become null and void in its entirety, and there shall be no restrictions on the Company’s ability to seek relief under 11 U.S.C. §§1113 or 1114. In the event of a war in Iraq or a sudden, unforeseen event that substantially disrupts air travel (e.g., an act of God, act or threat of terrorism, etc.), the commitment contained in the preceding paragraph will become null and void in its entirety, and there shall be no restrictions on the Company’s ability to seek relief under 11 U.S.C. §§1113 or 1114.
____________________________________________________________
We are always under the threat of a terrorist attack. We could be at war with Iraq a week after this thing goes into affect. An act of god could be a tornado in the Midwest. It's just too easy to eliminate this part of the agreement. Too many holes. New or old management I just don't trust the company.
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novaqt said
The company has signed off on USC Section 1113 and 1114 which states they will not abbrogate the contracts if the company has to file BK.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Here is the language on BK.
If the Company or UAL Corporation nonetheless files a petition for reorganization under Chapter 11, neither the Company nor UAL will file or support any motion or proceeding under any provision of 11 U.S.C. §§1113 or 1114 with respect to the District 141M collective bargaining agreements during the period between December 1, 2002 and November 30, 2003.
Notwithstanding the commitment contained in the foregoing paragraph, in the
event the Company’s operating cash flow substantially and adversely deviates from the Company’s October 2002 ATSB business plan for a ninety (90) day period, and such deviation presents a threat to the Company’s future liquidity, the Company will provide the Union with notice and a full opportunity to discuss possible remedies to the cash flow shortfall. If discussions between the Company and the Union do not produce a mutually acceptable resolution of the liquidity threat within sixty (60) days of such notice, the commitment contained in the preceding paragraph will become null and void in its entirety, and there shall be no restrictions on the Company’s ability to seek relief under 11 U.S.C. §§1113 or 1114. In the event of a war in Iraq or a sudden, unforeseen event that substantially disrupts air travel (e.g., an act of God, act or threat of terrorism, etc.), the commitment contained in the preceding paragraph will become null and void in its entirety, and there shall be no restrictions on the Company’s ability to seek relief under 11 U.S.C. §§1113 or 1114.
____________________________________________________________
We are always under the threat of a terrorist attack. We could be at war with Iraq a week after this thing goes into affect. An act of god could be a tornado in the Midwest. It's just too easy to eliminate this part of the agreement. Too many holes. New or old management I just don't trust the company.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #25
[blockquote]
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On 11/23/2002 12:43:22 PM novaqt wrote:
Kcabpilot:
I think I will let my tax accountant tell me. If I do not ask, I do not get an answer...even if it is No.
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[/blockquote]
Okay novaqt but for heavens sake don't pay anyone to answer that question for you. Let me try putting it another way:
Do you pay taxes on the money you don't get for your regular days off?
Because it's the same thing - you don't get any money, you don't pay any tax. So what is it that you are thinking you can deduct?
----------------
On 11/23/2002 12:43:22 PM novaqt wrote:
Kcabpilot:
I think I will let my tax accountant tell me. If I do not ask, I do not get an answer...even if it is No.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Okay novaqt but for heavens sake don't pay anyone to answer that question for you. Let me try putting it another way:
Do you pay taxes on the money you don't get for your regular days off?
Because it's the same thing - you don't get any money, you don't pay any tax. So what is it that you are thinking you can deduct?
Gatemech:
Here is the D141 BK language:
If the Company or UAL Corporation nonetheless files a petition for reorganization under Chapter 11, neither the Company nor UAL will file or support any motion or proceeding under any provision of 11 U.S.C. §§1113 or 1114 with respect to the District 141 collective bargaining agreements during the period between December 1, 2002 and November 30, 2003.
Notwithstanding the commitment contained in the foregoing paragraph, in the event the Company’s operating cash flow substantially and adversely deviates from the Company’s October 2002 ATSB business plan for a ninety (90) day period, and such deviation presents a threat to the Company’s future liquidity, the Company will provide the Union with notice and a full opportunity to discuss possible remedies to the cash flow shortfall. If discussions between the Company and the Union do not produce a mutually acceptable resolution of the liquidity threat within sixty (60) days of such notice, the commitment contained in the preceding paragraph will become null and void in its entirety, and there shall be no restrictions on the Company’s ability to seek relief under 11 U.S.C. §§1113 or 1114. In the event of a war in Iraq or a sudden, unforeseen event that substantially disrupts air travel (e.g., an act of God, act or threat of terrorism, etc.), the commitment contained in the preceding paragraph will become null and void in its entirety, and there shall be no restrictions on the Company’s ability to seek relief under 11 U.S.C. §§1113 or 1114.
No one can predict what, how and when our President strikes Iraq. Everything the Company negotiates has Force Majeur language in it. IMHO Mr. Tilton has so far operated aboveboard with the employees. I like what I have seen so far of his leadership. I also believe that Mr. Tilton knows that if he and his senior management behaves and makes any underhanded sneaky decisions will destroy any trust he had so far been able to build. I for one am on board with him. I believe we at last have someone we can trust, but I assure you, my faith and trust is being earned with reserve and caution. However, if he and/or his management staff does anything to breech this, then all trust is gone forever. I believe Mr. Tilton knows this very well. Let's give him a chance. So far so good.
Force Majeur is completely out of our hands. But let's see if we go to war with Iraq and if we do, let's pray that it is swift and over quickly, we all have jobs with United and the economy turns around.
Here is the D141 BK language:
If the Company or UAL Corporation nonetheless files a petition for reorganization under Chapter 11, neither the Company nor UAL will file or support any motion or proceeding under any provision of 11 U.S.C. §§1113 or 1114 with respect to the District 141 collective bargaining agreements during the period between December 1, 2002 and November 30, 2003.
Notwithstanding the commitment contained in the foregoing paragraph, in the event the Company’s operating cash flow substantially and adversely deviates from the Company’s October 2002 ATSB business plan for a ninety (90) day period, and such deviation presents a threat to the Company’s future liquidity, the Company will provide the Union with notice and a full opportunity to discuss possible remedies to the cash flow shortfall. If discussions between the Company and the Union do not produce a mutually acceptable resolution of the liquidity threat within sixty (60) days of such notice, the commitment contained in the preceding paragraph will become null and void in its entirety, and there shall be no restrictions on the Company’s ability to seek relief under 11 U.S.C. §§1113 or 1114. In the event of a war in Iraq or a sudden, unforeseen event that substantially disrupts air travel (e.g., an act of God, act or threat of terrorism, etc.), the commitment contained in the preceding paragraph will become null and void in its entirety, and there shall be no restrictions on the Company’s ability to seek relief under 11 U.S.C. §§1113 or 1114.
No one can predict what, how and when our President strikes Iraq. Everything the Company negotiates has Force Majeur language in it. IMHO Mr. Tilton has so far operated aboveboard with the employees. I like what I have seen so far of his leadership. I also believe that Mr. Tilton knows that if he and his senior management behaves and makes any underhanded sneaky decisions will destroy any trust he had so far been able to build. I for one am on board with him. I believe we at last have someone we can trust, but I assure you, my faith and trust is being earned with reserve and caution. However, if he and/or his management staff does anything to breech this, then all trust is gone forever. I believe Mr. Tilton knows this very well. Let's give him a chance. So far so good.
Force Majeur is completely out of our hands. But let's see if we go to war with Iraq and if we do, let's pray that it is swift and over quickly, we all have jobs with United and the economy turns around.
johnny gearpin
Member
Piney Bob writes,
Will just remind you of a quote by Ben Franklin on signing the Decalaration Of Independence. Gentlemen, We had all best hang together, or surely we shall hang separately. History teaches many lessons, alas we refuse to learn them.
Wecome over Piney Bob! That is one of my favorite quotes. I continue to fight to remove the turd. If 600 more eligibles sign authorization cards, The turd will be flushed 'round the bowl and down the hole.'
Will just remind you of a quote by Ben Franklin on signing the Decalaration Of Independence. Gentlemen, We had all best hang together, or surely we shall hang separately. History teaches many lessons, alas we refuse to learn them.
Wecome over Piney Bob! That is one of my favorite quotes. I continue to fight to remove the turd. If 600 more eligibles sign authorization cards, The turd will be flushed 'round the bowl and down the hole.'
UAL777flyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 730
- 0
PineyBob,
Great post, buddy. I like the quote and actually agree with you. Amazing, huh?
Steiner,
I'm curious. What airline bankruptcies have you been through and please give me your honest impression of what caused them?
Great post, buddy. I like the quote and actually agree with you. Amazing, huh?
Steiner,
I'm curious. What airline bankruptcies have you been through and please give me your honest impression of what caused them?
