Eh Eh want mechanics to accept 2 year contract extension

[Skymess]

And how well did that AA FA money protect your pay and benifits back in 2003?

The fact is the industry acted as one, they chopped up the labor force into little bits and took more than they ever could have imagined. If we had acted as one we could have stopped this back in 2002 at USAIR by simply letting the courts know that if they treated labor worse than other creditors we would remove our labor from the economy until justice was served.

The erosion of labor rights was possible because these judges faced no opposition. For me the imposition of a contract and the removal of self help by the courts was a watershed moment, with that ruling the courts basically said the corporations have a right to our labor and we do not. The judge confiscated the labor of the NWA flight attendants, set a price for that labor solely upon the needs of the corporation without input from the flight attendants and prohibited the flihght attendants from acting collectively in resisting the court imposed confiscation. The court would never do that to another corporation but labor, and the citizens who provide that labor, were treated as inferior, without rights. It just goes to show how corporations have elevated themselves to a position that is superior to that of citizens. We no longer have the right to bargain collectively in our best interests even though those with capital retain their right to collectively use their capital in their best interests.

The problems we're facing are systemic and deeply rooted within our corrupt government and its corrupt court system and your APFA-AA only union is totally inadequate to the task to challenging or changing that. Sure they can fight for small petty items like grievances about trip removals but pay and benifits will be out of their realm of influence. When all that is needed is a trip to BK court (or in the case of AA a threat to make that trip) for the company to take whatever they want your contract and your union arent really worth a damn.

I agree with you, to a certain extent. My benefits and pay were chopped because we had the wrong people in office. It wasn't because I had an independent union. The wave of the future was to cut pay and benefits for all. We were just unlucky enough to have, as Jim so aptly states, the "perpetually trip removed" in office who perpetually like to assist AA management.

If we didn't have an independent union we would have to watch our union dues go to helping other airlines and their problems and our interests wouldn't have been preserved with our acquisition of TWA. I know it's a sore point on this board, but APFA did what it had to to to preserve it's membership at the time; a membership which did not include TWA at the time.

 

[FA Mikey]

And how well did that AA FA money protect your pay and benifits back in 2003?

I am just guessing but better than yours. All the money in the world could have stopped an incompetent like ward and his group.

The fact is the industry acted as one, they chopped up the labor force into little bits and took more than they ever could have imagined. If we had acted as one we could have stopped this back in 2002 at USAIR by simply letting the courts know that if they treated labor worse than other creditors we would remove our labor from the economy until justice was served.

Face it Bob that is your own personal pipe dream. You will NEVER get a slate of labor to work together like that. People are to self oriented and would stand for their own let alone someone else.

The erosion of labor rights was possible because these judges faced no opposition. For me the imposition of a contract and the removal of self help by the courts was a watershed moment, with that ruling the courts basically said the corporations have a right to our labor and we do not. The judge confiscated the labor of the NWA flight attendants, set a price for that labor solely upon the needs of the corporation without input from the flight attendants and prohibited the flihght attendants from acting collectively in resisting the court imposed confiscation. The court would never do that to another corporation but labor, and the citizens who provide that labor, were treated as inferior, without rights. It just goes to show how corporations have elevated themselves to a position that is superior to that of citizens. We no longer have the right to bargain collectively in our best interests even though those with capital retain their right to collectively use their capital in their best interests.

Sorry again Bob, but the morons who collect dues money, and picket movies with unflattering portrayals of FA's had two chances to walk out and stand there ground. They chose simply to wait. They waited until a judge had ruled against them.

The problems we're facing are systemic and deeply rooted within our corrupt government and its corrupt court system and your APFA-AA only union is totally inadequate to the task to challenging or changing that. Sure they can fight for small petty items like grievances about trip removals but pay and benifits will be out of their realm of influence. When all that is needed is a trip to BK court (or in the case of AA a threat to make that trip) for the company to take whatever they want your contract and your union arent really worth a damn.

Oh Please, you cant make a difference with in your own union or collect enough signatures to start a new one, so you blame everyone and every thing else for that.

You guys talk this grand game and union utopia, yet you cant even begin to consider something outside the box. When faced with the possibility of a Pay for Performance plan. You dismiss it as it will never work VS making it work, and work in your favor. Tied into the management bonus's, they get paid you get paid.

Face it the mechanics at AA will always be represented by the TWU and so long as you guys continue to wait out AMFA or someone else as your saviors. Until you give consideration to something other than an hourly rate, tied to a date, nothing is going to change, be it mechanic, flight attendant or pilot. The so called good 'Ol days are gone and its a new global community. Time to wake up and try something new and different.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Time to wake up and try something new and different.

Do you have any APFA cards we can sign?

 

[FA Mikey]

Do you have any APFA cards we can sign?

First you must go through the ridiculous 6 weeks of training, then welcome aboard as they say.

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

If we didn't have an independent union we would have to watch our union dues go to helping other airlines and their problems and our interests wouldn't have been preserved with our acquisition of TWA. I know it's a sore point on this board, but APFA did what it had to to to preserve it's membership at the time; a membership which did not include TWA at the time.
[/quote]


Could you be anymore clueless?? Dues money from other airlines do not assist multiple carriers.. But hey, your union did you well, WITHOUT going into BK.. <_< STRONG AND PROUD I'm sure!!! Give me a break and do some reading.

 

[Skymess]

Could you be anymore clueless?? Dues money from other airlines do not assist multiple carriers.. But hey, your union did you well, WITHOUT going into BK.. <_< STRONG AND PROUD I'm sure!!! Give me a break and do some reading.

Clueless how? If I worked for United I would be paying dues to the AFA who covers multiple carriers.

Make your point.....if you have one.

 

[The Goose]

Do you have any APFA cards we can sign?

That would be a trip!

 

[Bob Owens]

I agree with you, to a certain extent. My benefits and pay were chopped because we had the wrong people in office. It wasn't because I had an independent union. The wave of the future was to cut pay and benefits for all. We were just unlucky enough to have, as Jim so aptly states, the "perpetually trip removed" in office who perpetually like to assist AA management.

If we didn't have an independent union we would have to watch our union dues go to helping other airlines and their problems and our interests wouldn't have been preserved with our acquisition of TWA. I know it's a sore point on this board, but APFA did what it had to to to preserve it's membership at the time; a membership which did not include TWA at the time.

Well we saw how well it worked out when one independant union stands up for their members over at NWA with AMFA. AMFA did the right thing but the other unions rallied around the company and screwed the AMFA members. The industry has a much better chance of handling one strike by one group at one airline than they do a massive strike by multiple groups at several airlines.

You are concerned that your dues would be used to help other FAs, well whats wrong with that? Cant you see that what happens at other airlines affects what happens at AA? If other FAs do well then its easier for you to do even better. Here you are all concerned about TWA integration yet you lost most of what the job had to offer, getting to the top of the $hitpile is not a great accomplishment. Great seniority in a crappy job is not worth fighting for, your priorities should be on pay and benifits.

 

[Bob Owens]

I am just guessing but better than yours. All the money in the world could have stopped an incompetent like ward and his group.

Exactly, the TWU is part of the problem as well, even more so than your APFA because its undemocratic and does not have to respond to the needs of the membership.

Face it Bob that is your own personal pipe dream. You will NEVER get a slate of labor to work together like that. People are to self oriented and would stand for their own let alone someone else.

Well people are full of contradictions, on the one hand they are self orientated, or like to claim they are like everyone else but we are also social as well. People tend to want to fit in, even if it means pretending to be different. We all have similar objectives, to maximize our compensation, all we need is proper leadership. Contrary to your pessimistic claims People do often stand together, it can happen and has happened.

Sorry again Bob, but the morons who collect dues money, and picket movies with unflattering portrayals of FA's had two chances to walk out and stand there ground. They chose simply to wait. They waited until a judge had ruled against them.

Agreed, they shuld have taken a more proactive position.

Oh Please, you cant make a difference with in your own union or collect enough signatures to start a new one, so you blame everyone and every thing else for that.

There is a difference between cant and havent, you are the type that cant, I just havent, yet.

You guys talk this grand game and union utopia, yet you cant even begin to consider something outside the box. When faced with the possibility of a Pay for Performance plan. You dismiss it as it will never work VS making it work, and work in your favor. Tied into the management bonus's, they get paid you get paid.

We have seen this box before, Enron, Avis, EAL, LEAAP, a profit sharing plan with a $500,000,000 threshold that has returned ZERO dollars of the 25% we gave up, etc, its not worth considering, been there done that. Knowing this company and its lapdog union it will be a devisive plan that puts one station and each workgroup against each other, we are divided enough. If you like it why dont you propose it for your fellow FAs? Show me a mature company in an industry with slim margins where "performance pay" in leiu or real pay has worked out well over the long run.

Face it the mechanics at AA will always be represented by the TWU and so long as you guys continue to wait out AMFA or someone else as your saviors. Until you give consideration to something other than an hourly rate, tied to a date, nothing is going to change, be it mechanic, flight attendant or pilot. The so called good 'Ol days are gone and its a new global community. Time to wake up and try something new and different.

When I propose something new and different you call it a pipe Dream. I'm willing to try something new and different but I would be a fool to follow the same people who have screwed us so many times in the past.

 

[Skymess]

Well we saw how well it worked out when one independant union stands up for their members over at NWA with AMFA. AMFA did the right thing but the other unions rallied around the company and screwed the AMFA members. The industry has a much better chance of handling one strike by one group at one airline than they do a massive strike by multiple groups at several airlines.

You are concerned that your dues would be used to help other FAs, well whats wrong with that? Cant you see that what happens at other airlines affects what happens at AA? If other FAs do well then its easier for you to do even better. Here you are all concerned about TWA integration yet you lost most of what the job had to offer, getting to the top of the $hitpile is not a great accomplishment. Great seniority in a crappy job is not worth fighting for, your priorities should be on pay and benifits.

I think all unions joining together to lobby in Washington helps more than all the FA's belonging to the same union. We can all have the same interests and lobby together for FAR changes but I don't think it really helps to be one big union that can all tank together.

There are a number of airlines that belong to AFA. I personally don't see a benefit to all other AFA members at other airlines when all the AFA money was going to renegotiate concession contracts again and again at United and US Airways when they were going through bankruptcy. I also don't see the benefit of belonging to the Teamsters, which I was when I was a Northwest Airlines FA, especially when the Teamsters members are not even in the same industry as FAs.

BTW, US Airways and United are 2 of the biggest AFA members and what good did that do them? Has Chaos made a difference with anything? It's all baloney.

We all have a problem with the corporate machine trying to eat up our rights. Why would I want to have my union be a big conglomorate who loses sight of the fact they are a union and not big business? My union is big enough, and unmanageable enough, for me the size it is now.

 

[Bob Owens]

I think all unions joining together to lobby in Washington helps more than all the FA's belonging to the same union. We can all have the same interests and lobby together for FAR changes but I don't think it really helps to be one big union that can all tank together.

There are a number of airlines that belong to AFA. I personally don't see a benefit to all other AFA members at other airlines when all the AFA money was going to renegotiate concession contracts again and again at United and US Airways when they were going through bankruptcy. I also don't see the benefit of belonging to the Teamsters, which I was when I was a Northwest Airlines FA, especially when the Teamsters members are not even in the same industry as FAs.

BTW, US Airways and United are 2 of the biggest AFA members and what good did that do them? Has Chaos made a difference with anything? It's all baloney.

We all have a problem with the corporate machine trying to eat up our rights. Why would I want to have my union be a big conglomorate who loses sight of the fact they are a union and not big business? My union is big enough, and unmanageable enough, for me the size it is now.

The problem with relying on lobbying is that the unions dont have the resources to match big business. The unions back the Democrats but the corporations back them both. Unions would be better off using Political education funds to educate their own members instead of trying to compete for the Democrats.

The AFA did fold, no denying that, but as I've said thats because the whole structure is flawed. One big union with a democratic Constitution is needed for airline workers.