Democracy In Action

[TWU informer]

Democracy is a great thing. Hopefully the candidates that run do not resign and run from their promise of representing their members in the face of adversity Ken and I am not just talking about your partial term at 565. Or flip flop between unions depending on which may the wind blows and what meets their personal agenda Ken. Is that your criteria for "good union" men?

Overspeed and high Speed Steel must be twins from different mothers. Or they just drank from the same breast.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Democracy is a great thing. Hopefully the candidates that run do not resign and run from their promise of representing their members in the face of adversity Ken and I am not just talking about your partial term at 565. Or flip flop between unions depending on which may the wind blows and what meets their personal agenda Ken. Is that your criteria for "good union" men?

I'm not Ken, but I do have an opinion.

Once upon a time, your "Good Union Men" would have had the balls to clean the self-serving trash out of their representative body in any way possible (not necessarily via election), insuring those who presently use their membership's money as a personal piggy bank were no longer lounging in their offices.

 

[Overspeed]

I'm not Ken, but I do have an opinion.

Once upon a time, your "Good Union Men" would have had the balls to clean the self-serving trash out of their representative body in any way possible (not necessarily via election), insuring those who presently use their membership's money as a personal piggy bank were no longer lounging in their offices.

Won't argue with that. I would add that those who tell us what is popular just to get re-elected should be dealt with as well. It seems like most elections are like running for student council. Promises or assertions that are not probable then claiming that everybody was against them is equally lacking in "balls". They could better serve as our spokespeople by acting as advisors to the membership on what is possible in the near term and what we can achieve over the longer term with persistence. If there is anything we can agree on is that it took a long time to get to where unions were in the 1950s and 60s and it was undone by legislators. There are no quick pay days.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

If there is anything we can agree on is that it took a long time to get to where unions were in the 1950s and 60s and it was undone by legislators. There are no quick pay days.

I might add to your list of "undoers" memberships (like that of the TWU) who are always willing to sell someone else out for their own perceived benefit. There are many examples of this during the past 20 years and thankfully, this time (re: the TA vote), it didn't work. I would like to think people finally got a belly-full of the contract time sell outs of others and grew a set of priciples but reality tells me otherwise.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Democracy is a great thing. Hopefully the candidates that run do not resign and run from their promise of representing their members in the face of adversity Ken and I am not just talking about your partial term at 565. Or flip flop between unions depending on which may the wind blows and what meets their personal agenda Ken. Is that your criteria for "good union" men?

Gee, if you had the stones to step out from the cloak of your alias I would consider giving your post a grain of sand's worth of intelligence.

As for good union men do you mean people like gless, videtich and other APPOINTED TWU Int. officers who don't take pay cuts when the membership does? Or just good union men like gless who makes three times what an AMT makes and says that "AMTs have to lower their expectations in negotiations."?

What do you know about adversity? Using an alias is all twu supporters can do. There isn't one twu supporter using their name here. Why is that?

 

[Overspeed]

Gee, if you had the stones to step out from the cloak of your alias I would consider giving your post a grain of sand's worth of intelligence.

As for good union men do you mean people like gless, videtich and other APPOINTED TWU Int. officers who don't take pay cuts when the membership does? Or just good union men like gless who makes three times what an AMT makes and says that "AMTs have to lower their expectations in negotiations."?

What do you know about adversity? Using an alias is all twu supporters can do. There isn't one twu supporter using their name here. Why is that?

Is that all you got? Never addressed the fact that you change your affiliations depending on which way the wind blows. You are nothing more than a paper tiger. Mis-direction, over-reaching on most arguments, and a naive grasp of the forces that are at work beyond AA. You complain about others wages which is exactly what the union busting business lobby does. Don't look at what I am responsible for or do, look at them, they have more than you do. If you are arguing for pay for performance for Int'l reps should that be applied to AMTs?

 

[1AA]

Is that all you got? Never addressed the fact that you change your affiliations depending on which way the wind blows. You are nothing more than a paper tiger. Mis-direction, over-reaching on most arguments, and a naive grasp of the forces that are at work beyond AA. You complain about others wages which is exactly what the union busting business lobby does. Don't look at what I am responsible for or do, look at them, they have more than you do. If you are arguing for pay for performance for Int'l reps should that be applied to AMTs?

You obviously do not know what Ken has done for our profession.

He found the A.M.T.A.
He is responsible for the National AMT day.
He brought recognition of Charles E. Taylor to many AMT's and others in our profession.
He speaks out in favor of our profession at a governmental level.

What have you done with your 37 posts here on this forum?

 

[Frank Szabo]

Overspeed

Group:
Registered Member Posts:
37 Joined:
27-June 11

"Don't look at what I am responsible for or do, look at them, they have more than you do. If you are arguing for pay for performance for Int'l reps should that be applied to AMTs?"

You've been a "member" of this group for nine days and all you're able to do is profess your undying love for the TWU and the abuse of its membership. I've no choice but to concluded your are a union officer, very interested in keeping your job and couldn't care less about what's going on behind your back.

Yep - Pay for Performance - that's a slogan I can live with. We need a few thousand shirts made up by the Locals - can you manage that?

 

[Buck]

You've been a "member" of this group for nine days and all you're able to do is profess your undying love for the TWU and the abuse of its membership. I've no choice but to concluded your are a union officer, very interested in keeping your job and couldn't care less about what's going on behind your back.

Yep - Pay for Performance - that's a slogan I can live with. We need a few thousand shirts made up by the Locals - can you manage that?

They can do that brother!

 

[Bob Owens]

Won't argue with that. I would add that those who tell us what is popular just to get re-elected should be dealt with as well. It seems like most elections are like running for student council. Promises or assertions that are not probable then claiming that everybody was against them is equally lacking in "balls". They could better serve as our spokespeople by acting as advisors to the membership on what is possible in the near term and what we can achieve over the longer term with persistence. If there is anything we can agree on is that it took a long time to get to where unions were in the 1950s and 60s and it was undone by legislators. There are no quick pay days.

Hmm, lets see. in 2003 we gave away at least 25% of our compensation, when we did we were told that we would open the contract in 2006 to get back what we gave up. Sonny Hall promised "I will not rest until we get everything back, he retired many moons ago.

2006 came and went, only the dispatchers started negotiating, they didnt give up a lot of stuff that we gave up and make considerably more than we do. I dont know where they rank in the industry.

2007 came and went. Still didnt get anything back.
2008 came and went. Still didnt get anything back.

2009 came and went. Still didnt get anything back.

2010 came and went. Still didnt get anything back.

2011 halfway gone Still didnt get anything back.

Longer term? The fact is the company took all they did in one month, yet 8 years later we havent gotten anything back. Our hourly rates are still below what they were in 2003. The companys last offer was a contarct to 2014. That makes the concessions at the minimum an 11 year ordeal, throw on 4 years of negotiations there as well and we are talking a 15 year ordeal. Most of us are over 50, should we be expected to wait till we are too old to work before we see what we once had returned? Eight years isnt long enough? How do we know what we can achieve and cant achieve unless we take it to the max?

Labor can try and blame legislators for their ills but I see it the other way around. Like in the wild, weakness draws attacks from preditors. Legislators know that labor is weak and will not disrupt commerce. So since Labor is not a threat they put in what their more powerful benifactors, corporations, tell them to put in. Labor then simply rolls over and tells their members that there's nothing they can do about it, they need to vote Democrat, even though the Democrats often arent any better. Only when labors dues base is directly threatened did they finally mobilize, when Patco was screwed they did nothing, when Airline workers were screwed, they did nothing, when the auto workers were screwed, they did nothing its a welcome change but they need to realize that the attack on the right to organize was brought on by labors failure to fight to protect workers from the abuse of BK courts and vindictive politicians who hate labor. Labor is so afraid of losing a fight that they simply gave up all those challenges without a fight without a fight. This only encourages more anti-labor legislation. They have not learned from History, that disruptions to commerec was in fact what lead to the legalization of unions. The battles were becoming too costly.

Look at what happened in this industry. Labor used all their political capital to push through reform of the RLA representational election process, in the end the drives failed anyway. Sure Delta interfered but with concessions and wage cuts in place at Delta Union drive should have been a slam dunk. Why wasnt it? Because when Delta workers look at their Union counterparts at Continental,United or USAIR they dont see much advantage to being Union. The courts raped those workers just as harshly as they they raped Delta and the Unions did absolutely nothing. AA workers earn less and they didnt even go BK. I'd had urged the Unions to get together back in 2002 and block the USAIR raping. The Unions sat by, watched as carrier after carrier went through BK, and Judges decided that if Airlines needed help paying for increased fuel prices, increased landing fees, increased interest rates to the banks, and increased taxes, that the employees would have to foot the bill through paycuts, RLA be damned, except for the prohibition on self help that is. If the Unions want to win at Delta they need to get their act together and do something at the carriers that remain Union and get their members things that the Delta workers would be envious of. Pushing hard to get wages and benifits restored would be a good first step.

The biggest problem with labor is they dont realize the pendulum has swung until its already heading back the other way. Mechanics are probably in the best position they've ever been in to fight back. Too bad the Unions dont see that. They believe too much of what the company tells them.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ Grand speech Bob!------ Reality check here! What you suggest, just ain't guna get done by the TWU, or the AA Membership! I'm afraid neither has the stomach for it!!! And that's really a shame! :unsure:

 

[Overspeed]

Look at what happened in this industry. Labor used all their political capital to push through reform of the RLA representational election process, in the end the drives failed anyway. Sure Delta interfered but with concessions and wage cuts in place at Delta Union drive should have been a slam dunk. Why wasnt it? Because when Delta workers look at their Union counterparts at Continental,United or USAIR they dont see much advantage to being Union. The courts raped those workers just as harshly as they they raped Delta and the Unions did absolutely nothing. AA workers earn less and they didnt even go BK. I'd had urged the Unions to get together back in 2002 and block the USAIR raping. The Unions sat by, watched as carrier after carrier went through BK, and Judges decided that if Airlines needed help paying for increased fuel prices, increased landing fees, increased interest rates to the banks, and increased taxes, that the employees would have to foot the bill through paycuts, RLA be damned, except for the prohibition on self help that is. If the Unions want to win at Delta they need to get their act together and do something at the carriers that remain Union and get their members things that the Delta workers would be envious of. Pushing hard to get wages and benifits restored would be a good first step.

The biggest problem with labor is they dont realize the pendulum has swung until its already heading back the other way. Mechanics are probably in the best position they've ever been in to fight back. Too bad the Unions dont see that. They believe too much of what the company tells them.

Perfect! You just explained the harsh cold reality Bob. You get it! I knew you had it in you! You and the negotiating team are taking on BK judges, investors, the economy, unfavorable government legislation, and the global low wage work force.

YOU are the problem! You and your still as of yet unreachable goals have failed the membership.

In 2008 the TWU team said the extension is weak we can get better. (Potential value of $10,000 per member plus enhancements like getting back VC, some holidays, and full SK pay) The extension would have been up for negotiations in 2010. Hey that was last year.

In 2010 the TWU got another deal worth similar value and enhancements and you told us to vote it down. You could get better. (Potential value of $10,000 per member plus enhancements similar to the 2008 deal but some not so good changes to pension and retiree medical) I thought we would get a better deal according to you and your supporters? What happened?

Now you and your supporters advocate release which means we can do self help. Well so can AA and with all that powerful backing - BK judges, legislators, and investors - I am sure we will kick AA management's butts.

Better position? Yeah sure. Strike! Let's do that. We are with you General Custer!

 

[Overspeed]

Are you talking about Don V boy Casper? I talked to my president about Keith Stewart a while back, and that is what he was known as, Casper becuase he never showed up for negotiaions or president meetings. But when he did, he said he was a big spender. That is a shame, and the DOL should be called in because you guys had that local for at least 2 terms with Don V and at least 1 with Keith, and all you could put away was 180 grand. Something smells real bad here. The 240k over a term sounds much more like it.

The new officers did not stop the bleeding? Major arbitration cases hit them hard. Representing your members costs money. Mike Hatfield had to make some tough choices and deserves most of the credit.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ----- No Overspeed! Bob's not the problem!------- You, the membership are!!! ------- You sit on your fat backsides and do nothing to support your negotiating committee! You expect them to hand you a TA on a silver platter, yet I don't hear, or see, of any membership's "displeasure" with AA's stalling tactics throughout the system! ------- That's why I stated I don't feel you have the "stomach" for it !!!!

 

[midnights]

<_< ----- No Overspeed! Bob's not the problem!------- You, the membership are!!! ------- You sit on your fat backsides and do nothing to support your negotiating committee! You expect them to hand you a TA on a silver platter, yet I don't hear, or see, of any membership's "displeasure" with AA's stalling tactics throughout the system! ------- That's why I stated I don't feel you have the "stomach" for it !!!!

Amen!