OP
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- Banned
- #16
Fly said:
Delta Unveils Its Transformation Plan
- Thread starter WorldTraveler
- Start date
LiveInAHotel
Veteran
- Nov 5, 2003
- 645
- 0
WorldTraveler said:
Good Evening WordTraveler,
A little FYI for you...AA gave its employees stock options too and we are UNIONIZED!
You can send the crow to the following address, because I will not be eating it:
Delta Airlines
Attn: Non-Union Employee Groups
1030 Delta Blvd.
Atlanta, GA. 30354
It's obvious you have no idea how labor negotiations work. DALPA is not
going to cave into Delta's demands. Why do you think they will be taking from the non-union groups? Because the pilots are smart and will not cave in!
Here is a gift for you to enjoy around the 28th or 29th:
Hopeful
Veteran
- Dec 21, 2002
- 5,998
- 347
WorldTraveler:
My post simply stated that the legacy carriers, in order to survive, will essentially become low cost carriers.
The management of the legacy carriers may seem they have the turn around plans in order. But what you really see is employees bearing a bulk of the sacrifice.
At AA, management has not shared in the sacrifices as much as employees have.
My post simply stated that the legacy carriers, in order to survive, will essentially become low cost carriers.
The management of the legacy carriers may seem they have the turn around plans in order. But what you really see is employees bearing a bulk of the sacrifice.
At AA, management has not shared in the sacrifices as much as employees have.
Hopeful said:
Delta didn't really do anything to become a low-cost carrier, but they certainly increased their exposure to low-cost carriers. DFW is fairly uninfested by LCCs with Air Tran flying 10 flights per day and Frontier with 5. Southwest isn't much of a threat at DAL thanks to the Wright Amendment. Delta is focusing more capacity on ATL/SLC/Florida/JFK with their heavy LCC operations which further exaggerates their cost problem, while at DFW they were competing with high-cost AA.
RDU Jetblast
Veteran
LiveInAHotel said:WRONG! You need to educate yourself on what a Bankruptcy judge can do in Chapter 11. The pilots are not going to give up 30% and the BK Judge will not take that much! Do you actually think the pilots should take that kind of hit to save all of you Kool-Aid Drnking non-unon employees? No, they should not. They have a voice and a contract to protect them. Guess what, you don't! Like I have said before all of you non-union, Kool-Aid drinkers are...
[post="177321"][/post]
Some pilots may not want to take pay cuts to "save the kool-aid drinking non union employees". Most pilots aren't considering non-union employees when taking their position. They shouldn't be asked to in a free market system.
But the fact is without the non union employees, the pilots won't fly. Every non union airline job require skills that are transferable to other industries for comparable pay in towns where people actually want to live.
Pilots have non transferable skills. Their college degrees are outdated. Pilots will have to support their families by working regular factory or retail jobs. Most pilots will make a lifestyle adjustment. The biggest being they won't be pilots anymore. Those pilots who don't partake in the Kool-aid drinking are in for a rough landing. Those who do make working at Delta a little easier.
luv2fly
Veteran
- Aug 21, 2002
- 1,187
- 0
RDU Jetblast said:
Hate to rain on you parade, but when I was furloughed from Delta, I was able to secure an entry level managment position making a comfortable salary with a management degree.
Non transferable skills? :huh: A large percentage of pilots have advanced degrees. Numerous MBA's, lawyers, even doctors, combined with military backgrounds. Many operate a business on the side.
IMO, your assertion is idiotic and uneducated.
RDU Jetblast
Veteran
Big deal. Most well paying jobs go to people with relevant, recent and quantifiable experience. An airline pilot with 10 years experience could have a pHd but if all he /she did was fly, they are out of practice in their academic discipline. And, if they were interviewing with me, they'd have answer why they worked hard on an mba and decided not use it. lI'd also try to find out if they feel like you do because if they did then I'd know they had no business sense. Many an MBA have destroyed businesses.
If you were furloughed you were a low timer with an airline and maybe your degree wasn't so outdated. You may be an exception to the rule. And since you were a low timer, maybe your pay was only cut by a third. I don't know about you but I wouldn't let a doctor who has flown for a living pull a splinter out of my finger.
By the way, I know more furloughed pilots waiting for a call back managing the plumbing aisle at home depot than I do managing anything else. And I know a lot of pilots working and not working. In fact, one works for me.
If you were furloughed you were a low timer with an airline and maybe your degree wasn't so outdated. You may be an exception to the rule. And since you were a low timer, maybe your pay was only cut by a third. I don't know about you but I wouldn't let a doctor who has flown for a living pull a splinter out of my finger.
By the way, I know more furloughed pilots waiting for a call back managing the plumbing aisle at home depot than I do managing anything else. And I know a lot of pilots working and not working. In fact, one works for me.
mrfish3726
Veteran
- Jul 7, 2004
- 931
- 0
FLY,
UAL wasn't smart enough to put it in the paper first "UAL to lay off 6000 and curb flights at DIA from 300+ a day to 70 a day" Think of the cost savings in that plan for UAL? But, alas UniTED management isn't as smart and focused as Delta management.
WorldTraveler, were you been? Their beating me up over their at the UAL sight LOL.
UAL wasn't smart enough to put it in the paper first "UAL to lay off 6000 and curb flights at DIA from 300+ a day to 70 a day" Think of the cost savings in that plan for UAL? But, alas UniTED management isn't as smart and focused as Delta management.
WorldTraveler, were you been? Their beating me up over their at the UAL sight LOL.
OP
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- Banned
- #25
Hotel,
Tell me a LOGICAL reason why Delta’s pilots would risk bankruptcy when it is clear their salaries are so far out of line? No LOGICAL person would and all the indications are that the current discussions are focusing on the transition point at which pilots would move from the current defined benefit plan to a fully 401K type plan; the pay levels have apparently already been agreed upon. Thankfully, Delta’s pilots are smarter than you and are willing to do what it takes to turn them around; I know that from speaking w/ some of them. Yes there are very senior ones who are at risk which is why DL is trying to offer a transitioned approach to eliminating future benefits – which incidentally isn’t that different from what DL gave non-contract employees a couple years ago.
JetBlast,
Pilots should be applauded for obtaining other degrees and skills besides flying to help tide them over during down times in the industry. Their PILOT skills are generally non-transferrable but not the employees themselves. However, most pilots won’t have near as much time to pursue their backup educations and run their side businesses after the current round of concessions are fully implemented at all carriers.
Hopeful,
I do agree with you that the LCC/legacy difference will be lost in the next couple years. Already, the LCCs are losing some of their revenue generating capability thanks to the aggressive efforts of legacy carriers.
Enilria,
It actually makes a great deal of sense for DL to add point to point RJ service since it not only will pull traffic away from CLT, minimizing the ability of that hub to remain viable in the future; from JFK, all those RJ markets are ones that B6 will have to fight harder for if they decide they want to put E-190s on. In reality, DL will be very happy if B6 would decide to put their E-190s in DFW; DL even has gates and a starter package to help them get set up; same could be said for AirTran as well. DL didn’t have much local share at DFW and it is too expensive to operate a hub for connecting traffic, esp. when your product is inferior (RJ to RJ connections) compared to AA’s mainline service.
Fish,
Although you do make a pain of yourself to many UA people, you do seem to be quite capable of seeing and communicating the reality of the situation in the industry. I don’t have too many friends on the UA board, but that’s ok since that is not why I post. There is a clear need for people who understand the industry and can separate the hype from reality and that is why I post. I enjoy looking at the whole industry and am particularly active on DL right now because this is the most critical time in their history.
Many of the UA employees will be enduring another round of cuts in the very near future and I have no intention of rubbing salt in their wounds when it happens and I would encourage you to refrain as well. The reality, however, is that UAL hasn’t run a good airline for decades despite having access to some of the best assets (including people) in the industry.
I don’t think UAL will ultimately survive and believe that it is very likely that Delta will be acquiring significant United assets in the not too distant future. DL will tremendously benefit from a US shutdown (which appears likely); part of Jerry’s incentive to get the cost part of Delta’s turnaround solved is because the network changes make a lot of sense. Adding a bunch of US revenue to DL’s current base (which is largely possible without a whole lot of effort) will only accelerate DL’s turnaround. UAL will continue to cut costs, including pensions to the point that they will alienate employees just as US has done to the point that they don’t care whether UA lives or dies and the prospect of being acquired by another carrier will look good (It worked for DL in the Pan Am and Western acquisitions, completely in contrast to how AA has handled mergers and acquisitions). DL will get past the current crisis, will stay out of bankruptcy (because no stakeholder will improve their odds in bankruptcy), and will continue to grow to become a truly worldwide carrier along the scope UA and AA are today.
Ultimately, time will prove us to be right. In the meantime, keep holding noses to the fire.
Tell me a LOGICAL reason why Delta’s pilots would risk bankruptcy when it is clear their salaries are so far out of line? No LOGICAL person would and all the indications are that the current discussions are focusing on the transition point at which pilots would move from the current defined benefit plan to a fully 401K type plan; the pay levels have apparently already been agreed upon. Thankfully, Delta’s pilots are smarter than you and are willing to do what it takes to turn them around; I know that from speaking w/ some of them. Yes there are very senior ones who are at risk which is why DL is trying to offer a transitioned approach to eliminating future benefits – which incidentally isn’t that different from what DL gave non-contract employees a couple years ago.
JetBlast,
Pilots should be applauded for obtaining other degrees and skills besides flying to help tide them over during down times in the industry. Their PILOT skills are generally non-transferrable but not the employees themselves. However, most pilots won’t have near as much time to pursue their backup educations and run their side businesses after the current round of concessions are fully implemented at all carriers.
Hopeful,
I do agree with you that the LCC/legacy difference will be lost in the next couple years. Already, the LCCs are losing some of their revenue generating capability thanks to the aggressive efforts of legacy carriers.
Enilria,
It actually makes a great deal of sense for DL to add point to point RJ service since it not only will pull traffic away from CLT, minimizing the ability of that hub to remain viable in the future; from JFK, all those RJ markets are ones that B6 will have to fight harder for if they decide they want to put E-190s on. In reality, DL will be very happy if B6 would decide to put their E-190s in DFW; DL even has gates and a starter package to help them get set up; same could be said for AirTran as well. DL didn’t have much local share at DFW and it is too expensive to operate a hub for connecting traffic, esp. when your product is inferior (RJ to RJ connections) compared to AA’s mainline service.
Fish,
Although you do make a pain of yourself to many UA people, you do seem to be quite capable of seeing and communicating the reality of the situation in the industry. I don’t have too many friends on the UA board, but that’s ok since that is not why I post. There is a clear need for people who understand the industry and can separate the hype from reality and that is why I post. I enjoy looking at the whole industry and am particularly active on DL right now because this is the most critical time in their history.
Many of the UA employees will be enduring another round of cuts in the very near future and I have no intention of rubbing salt in their wounds when it happens and I would encourage you to refrain as well. The reality, however, is that UAL hasn’t run a good airline for decades despite having access to some of the best assets (including people) in the industry.
I don’t think UAL will ultimately survive and believe that it is very likely that Delta will be acquiring significant United assets in the not too distant future. DL will tremendously benefit from a US shutdown (which appears likely); part of Jerry’s incentive to get the cost part of Delta’s turnaround solved is because the network changes make a lot of sense. Adding a bunch of US revenue to DL’s current base (which is largely possible without a whole lot of effort) will only accelerate DL’s turnaround. UAL will continue to cut costs, including pensions to the point that they will alienate employees just as US has done to the point that they don’t care whether UA lives or dies and the prospect of being acquired by another carrier will look good (It worked for DL in the Pan Am and Western acquisitions, completely in contrast to how AA has handled mergers and acquisitions). DL will get past the current crisis, will stay out of bankruptcy (because no stakeholder will improve their odds in bankruptcy), and will continue to grow to become a truly worldwide carrier along the scope UA and AA are today.
Ultimately, time will prove us to be right. In the meantime, keep holding noses to the fire.
luv2fly
Veteran
- Aug 21, 2002
- 1,187
- 0
RDU Jetblast said:
It was a big deal to me. I was able to secure adequate employment with a mangement degree, 12 years out of college. Who claimed all MBA's are successful ? I claim they are educated and well suited to adapt to the marketplace, not just being pilots. I sponsor several furloughed DL pilots, and I am sure you would be glad to know all of them are doing quite well. I am sure some are not doing so well, and such is life.
Your coming on here and making blanket statements about a profession are nothing more than ignorant, inflamatory, and asinine.
It appears to me that you harbor some ill will towards pilots. If that is the case, I am hopeful that none would have to interview with someone so prejudiced as yourself.
MadDogMike
Newbie
- Jul 10, 2004
- 11
- 0
LiveInAHotel said:
Because the pilots are smart, the pilots WILL give concessions to help the company. (Hell, they've already offered $700 million a year! That equates to $93k per year per pilot!) Because the pilots are smart, the pilots WILL require that concessions are also given by creditors, lessors, vendors, etc.
"It's obvious you have no idea how labor negotiations work."
World and Fish, you have a 50/50 chance of being right, as does anybody else who is guessing. At least World is just trying to defend his airline of choice but Fish, I am amazed that you get such a rush watching your old buddies lose their jobs......sad.
Oh, btw, just saw this article on Delta. Too bad they aren't as optomistic as you two. Maybe you should take up writing, then you can tilt the stories anyway you like.
Read it here.
Here are some highlights:
Yesterday, Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) appears to have made what I'd consider a halfhearted commitment at being a low-cost carrier. And, naturally, I'm doubtful the airline can pull it off.
Coincidence or no, the plan appears modeled after the coast-to-coast upgrades offered by UAL Corp.'s (OTC BB: UALAQ) United last week. But the United initiative was extremely specific, and Delta's plan calls for a gradual, systemwide overhaul. (((note from me: Yesterday World said, "It is noticeably different from any other legacy airline turnaround plan that has been announced in its completeness.".......I say, "Guess you were wrong again.")))
Delta needs concessions from its pilots. But they aren't budging. Indeed, after seeing the pension situation at United, many older Delta pilots are taking lump-sum retirements. The payouts drain needed cash from Delta's coffers
losing senior pilots in this manner could make it impossible to fend off a bankruptcy filing.
Oh, btw, just saw this article on Delta. Too bad they aren't as optomistic as you two. Maybe you should take up writing, then you can tilt the stories anyway you like.
Read it here.
Here are some highlights:
Yesterday, Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) appears to have made what I'd consider a halfhearted commitment at being a low-cost carrier. And, naturally, I'm doubtful the airline can pull it off.
Coincidence or no, the plan appears modeled after the coast-to-coast upgrades offered by UAL Corp.'s (OTC BB: UALAQ) United last week. But the United initiative was extremely specific, and Delta's plan calls for a gradual, systemwide overhaul. (((note from me: Yesterday World said, "It is noticeably different from any other legacy airline turnaround plan that has been announced in its completeness.".......I say, "Guess you were wrong again.")))
Delta needs concessions from its pilots. But they aren't budging. Indeed, after seeing the pension situation at United, many older Delta pilots are taking lump-sum retirements. The payouts drain needed cash from Delta's coffers
losing senior pilots in this manner could make it impossible to fend off a bankruptcy filing.
RDU Jetblast
Veteran
luv2fly said:
Luv, I got sucked into this assinine argument with World. And I insulted too many people. I tend to do that sometimes.
I harbor no ill will towards pilots. Some are my closest friends. One is the Godfather of my son. And, as I said, another works for me because he can't find a comparable paying job with a degree in history.
I do find it irritating that World has a tendency to put down employees because they are non-union kool-aid drinkers...As if that is a bad thing!
I liked Kool-aid and being non union. I didn't have to work by rules that slowed mechanics at other airlines down. I vividly remember the number of mechanics it took at Eastern to do the same job that two Delta mechanics were able to do simply because of work rules. For us, at the time, a union didn't make sense. Wasn't even on the radar.
Union, non union, it doesn't make a difference when times are this tough. one group can't get along without the other. If anyone can be accused of making ignorant and inflamatory remarks it is World. I'm sure those still employed don't appreciate being called stupid because their not in a trade union. There is no time to cry about it now. It's water under the bridge.
Time will tell if the pilots are right in holding their ground but my gut (and it's not only MY gut) tells me they're wrong.
luv2fly
Veteran
- Aug 21, 2002
- 1,187
- 0
RDU,
I understand what you are saying, and for the most part I agree. I do not consider myself a union cool aid drinker. To a degree I understand what management is proclaiming, and I see the ALPA's side as well. Both have very valid points. Obviously the name of the game is to compromise to the extent possible. Both sides have a history of abusing their relative powers.
I believe that the full effects of deregulation are just now being felt. It is certainly an unprecedented time in aviation.
I understand what you are saying, and for the most part I agree. I do not consider myself a union cool aid drinker. To a degree I understand what management is proclaiming, and I see the ALPA's side as well. Both have very valid points. Obviously the name of the game is to compromise to the extent possible. Both sides have a history of abusing their relative powers.
I believe that the full effects of deregulation are just now being felt. It is certainly an unprecedented time in aviation.
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