DL transatlantic routes perform well when compared with others

[Ch. 12]

Yet through all the bs from WT, one fact remains the same. United's stock is over $40 and Delta's is under $1.00.

Regarding your constant (and irrelevent) references to UAL's stock...it spent a helluva long time below $1 (years) before it was thrown out and new stock issued. Anybody can set an inflated price these days with a new issuance post-BK.

 

[TechBoy]

TechBoy,
I found this statement on the previously referenced post by you insightful.
"UA's entire European operation is designed with Star in mind and is focused on pumping traffic through Star hubs on both sides of the Atlantic."

It is not a I'm bigger than you argument. It is an argument that DL is aggressively building its international route system as is CO and to a lesser extent AA. UA is only growing in Asia and is now the #4 US carrier to both Europe and Latin America. UA’s vaunted position as an international leader is simply not supportable by the size of its current international network outside of Asia or the number of destinations it serves.

Indeed, utilizing Star is an excellent way for UA to get the most profit out of its transatlantic operations. DL may find that it is better for DL to carry most of the traffic itself. Different strokes.

The fact of the matter is that DL has about 20% more ASMs over the Atlantic than UA. With the new DL service coming on line that margin will probably grow to 30% or more. That is hardly a dominant lead over a "#4" competitor. The other relevant fact is that UA has about 50% more international ASMs globally. And DL will barely put a dent into that.

The one strength that DL has that I haven't seen you mention much, WT, is JFK. Although JFK has given DL headaches in the past, there is no way that DL (or any other airline) could serve so many of the second tier European cities without the huge O&D in NYC.

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

Regarding your constant (and irrelevent) references to UAL's stock...it spent a helluva long time below $1 (years) before it was thrown out and new stock issued. Anybody can set an inflated price these days with a new issuance post-BK.

Absolutely agree Ch12. I understand that. BUT, that stock would have dropped huge if it was too top heavy. Someone is keeping it and I can assure you that every United person immediately sold their shares just to avoid getting screwed over again (so it's not us holding it high) although we (especially ME) kick myself for selling it at $37. I've got a little shares left and will let that ride this out.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Yet through all the bs from WT, one fact remains the same. United's stock is over $40 and Delta's is under $1.00.

Like a previous poster stated, ALL legacy carriers would trade ALL their routes to have United's routes. So regardless of YOUR opinion, the fact remains that United has the BETTER route structure and therefore are the International Leader.

Prove it. You folks at UA just keep trying to tell that to yourself but there's no evidence whatsoever to that effect. In fact, CO and DL both serve more international destinations than UA does. And CO is in one of the better positions in the industry right now. And with full respect to where DL is now, I have said DL will be in very fine shape in the not too distant future.

By the way, can we pull the records showing what DL's stock price was the day UA filed? DL was worth substantially more than UA's market value at the time. And as one of your own posters wrote, UA's current market valuation should be higher.

Despite your assessment to the contrary, I am simply out to show that DL has a much better future than alot of people understand or believe. UA has accomplished an aweful lot to get to this point. The hurdle is higher now and UA has to kick into high gear in every area to keep from being swept away as insignificant. I have no problem whatsoever if you do make UA back what it used to be. Fix the aircraft cabins, clean up the terminals (starting at LAX would be a good place), add more kiosks. And expand your network! Not what your buddies fly but what you fly. You can do better than put money in other airlines' pockets. Go for it!

By the way, Korean has a very expansive network in Asia and China Airlines is a friend of DL's too. They certainly fill the holes in DL's network.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Yes, Tech, you are right that NYC is the reason DL is able to expand to some of the off the wall places it is flying. You are right that NYC is a huge market - not unlike LAX and SFO for Asian traffic. I'm also quite sure that the reason DL is pushing to assert itself in the larger NYC market (including transcons and Latin America) is because they know that you cannot rely solely on picking off the ethnic accounts in a couple off the wall destinations to survive. DL recognizes what made CO work by growing to such dominance in NYC (see I can use that word about other airlines) and they want to have a shot at it as well.

As for the word "dominance", I'm not sure what the threshold in marketshare would be but if it makes you feel better AND to let you know I am balanced and fair, I do believe UA DOMINATES the US-Asia market. UA not only serves all of the key markets (although NW serves a couple lesser ones as well) but UA does it on a nonstop basis from the US as well as generally w/ service via NRT (although not true of China) often from more than one gateway. UA also has a healthy ASM advantage over NW in the region. In the same way, DL offers more flights to more cities, many of which are served from more than 1 gateway. I would also say that AA dominates Latin America. So, if it please you, UA dominates Asia, AA dominates Latin America, and DL dominates Europe. Obtaining access one way or the other from NYC to LONDON is the last big strategic hurdle DL needs to cross in Europe.

 

[Bear96]

To summarize, DL is better than UA. In fact, DL is better than any airline in the history of the world. But especially that nasty old UA. Is now, always has been, and always will be. No need to debate it.

Did I get that about right, WT?

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

Fix the aircraft cabins

You must be f'in kidding me. LMAOOOO. Do you just work there and never enter a cabin? I fly Delta consistently, at least once a week. They have, hands down, the worst customer service (and ugliest flight attendants) and the aircraft are filthy. As for the better route structure, YOU prove ME wrong. Why do you think ALL the airlines wanted United to fail,....simply because of our SUPERIOR routes. You didn't see the lobbyists against US when they wanted an ATSB loan, did you? UAL was the most (along with AMR) affected airline by 9/11 yet they didn't get the loan. Must really boil your balls (especially that we now know that you are some underpaid flunky working at DL) that we didn't only die but seriously THRIVED. HA Konichiwa

By the way, can we pull the records showing what DL's stock price was the day UA filed?

Was it more than $40?

How about UALAQ, was it less than 50 cents during the bk? NOPE. UAL was averaging .90 to 1.00 the entire time. Why do you suppose DL is so low. Could it be because no one has faith in them? How high was the stock of Delta while UAL was in bk? hmmmm....I guess UAL really is the BETTER airline, aren't they?

As for the word "dominance"

As for the word "moron", I can be balanced and fair and apply that to others too, although it fits you the best.

 

[WorldTraveler]

if your stock was worth more than $1 during BK it only shows how big the morons are that held it. Bankruptcy law pretty well stipulates that equities will be trashed....

If you think your cabins are pristine, you might want to check w/ your CEO. All of the items I listed as needing to be done are exactly what your CEO says UA is doing. If you weren't so defensive, you might possibly recognize that UA does have flaws, some of which your leadership are addressing.

I agree DL's cabins are not as clean as they should be....DL recognizes that too. They are refurbishing their aircraft interiors and increasing cleaning schedules. As for the surly employees, I believe that assessment was made about UA's flight attendants for many years. Service isn't what it used to be anywhere but I fully recognize there are DL and UA employees who do very commendable jobs... not enough but they are there. For every story about how bad the service is one airline, there is another saying things were good. Service on all airlines needs to be consistently good.

And no you didn't get it right, Bear. Get the chip off your shoulders and read what was written.

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

So absoultely hysterical. You are certainly a piece of work. You attack United's cabins but DELTA's cabins are FAR WORSE (and don't forget their horrible flight attendants)....but when faced back about the obvious of your problems you back pedal. You must be sleeping with the CEO. Wow...you're credibility is shot. I bet I won't surprised if another lil cheerleader jumps into the ring this week, writing little novels to prove her little point. You have zero in the credibility department Mr. Girlee Boy.

 

[Paul]

We can all have a difference of opinion without the name calling. Thanks.

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

Ok...gotcha.....

Obviously you didn't...you have a PM

 

[Bear96]

And no you didn't get it right, Bear. Get the chip off your shoulders and read what was written.

How did I misinterpret your point?

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

Ok...gotcha.....

Obviously you didn't...you have a PM

I have been told that I can't call you what you are...but if I choose to write a novel, that is allowed. considering that I have children and a job I don't find writing 7 paragraphs an option per day, so just for the record..........WT is full of.....something.


I'm guessing I won't see you all for awhile...but that's ok. I'll still be flying UNITED (The airline that still flys WORLDWIDE) and waiting to see what happens to the airline with dirty seats, galleys, lavs, jetways, ewwww, etc,, etc, etc....and don't forget the pilots who may send you to ch 7

 

[Ch. 12]

Absolutely agree Ch12. I understand that. BUT, that stock would have dropped huge if it was too top heavy. Someone is keeping it and I can assure you that every United person immediately sold their shares just to avoid getting screwed over again (so it's not us holding it high) although we (especially ME) kick myself for selling it at $37. I've got a little shares left and will let that ride this out.

With a normal IPO I would agree. But since a company like UA coming out of BK issues most of its shares to its pre-BK debtholders, they have no choice but to hold onto it. It is a definite loss for the debtors if they cash it out right away and all that they can do is hope that it at least maintains or increases. There is no incentive to sell.

Good luck on selling the rest high. I wish UAL the best. Hopefully the recent yield increases will continue and fuel will stay low and all of us will see a rebound.

 

[FWAAA]

With a normal IPO I would agree. But since a company like UA coming out of BK issues most of its shares to its pre-BK debtholders, they have no choice but to hold onto it. It is a definite loss for the debtors if they cash it out right away and all that they can do is hope that it at least maintains or increases. There is no incentive to sell.

Good luck on selling the rest high. I wish UAL the best. Hopefully the recent yield increases will continue and fuel will stay low and all of us will see a rebound.

You are completely correct. Many of the holders of UAUA are legally restricted from selling their stock to avoid a "change of control" that would destroy the massive loss carryforwards (which will keep UA from paying corporate income taxes for a long time if it does become profitable). The Internal Revenue Code is partially to blame for the tight supply of UAUA and is partially respoonsible for the current high price.